Tapering >>>

[Avz]

Wow some of these replys.. Wtf. A lot of kj shit.
Keep that cycle and don't waste ur money on anti-es. Nolva is enough but u most likley won't need it.

..my first cycle was anavar at 30-40mg a day. Gained close to 20lb. Next one was 250mg of test for ten weeks.. Worked even better.

I'd say stay at 250 for this cycle.. A small pct is fine... I wouldn't even do a pct.

 

[Yohimbe33]

Wow some of these replys.. Wtf. A lot of kj shit.
Keep that cycle and don't waste ur money on anti-es. Nolva is enough but u most likley won't need it.

..my first cycle was anavar at 30-40mg a day. Gained close to 20lb. Next one was 250mg of test for ten weeks.. Worked even better.

I'd say stay at 250 for this cycle.. A small pct is fine... I wouldn't even do a pct.

Always do a pct-you'll be shut down even on 250mg per week. After 10 weeks of shut down, you need a pct.

 

[Steve123]

Op:

You're getting allot of contradicting info here and It's probably confusing, right?

Let's put this in persepctive. First, PCT is not magic. It slightly speeds up what your body is going to do anyway. And, if you're body for some reason is not going to recover, due to some Metabolic issue, SERM's are not going to do anything for you anyway.

So, it's up to you. You can try to recover naturally and it will take longer or you can take anti breast Cancer and Fertility drugs to accelerate the process. Personally, for a light cycle like that, i would probably just try to let my body recover naturally.

Tapering. Long esters Taper all by themselves without any help from you. Sure, you would cut the dose in half the last week; however, I wouldn't get carried away beyond that as it will only extend the period of supression and potentially make recovery more difficult - an issue that is amplified if you decide to recover without PCT. Personally, if I were going to taper, I would just do one extra half dose shot and call it a day.

The AI during the cycle will completely remove the threat of issues when taking an Estrogen Mediated Steroid. Nobody disputes that. The question is this: Is it worth the additional side effects of the AI to reap that benefit and how much is that benefit, really? ON 250 EW for 10-15 weeks, I would personally be inclined to forgo the AI.

HCG. Probably not really needed for such a light cycle but if you have the $ burning a hole in your pocket, it can only help. No real sides to speak of if you keep the dose low.

SERM's. Wether you decide to taper (no PCT) or do a PCT, I would have Nolva hanging out in your supply draw. Nolva is there JUST IN CASE you start to develop breast issues. Aside from that one purpose I would never use Nolva. If you decide to run a PCT, Nolva will work; Clomid seems to work better, in my opinion but bear in mind that the great Nolva vs. Clomid debate has gone on forever and will probably be around just as long.

Finally, I would go 12-16 weeks. 10 weeks on a long estered test? You're not even going to notice it until about week 4 or 5. Although I say that and I can detect an increase of even 100mg within 2 weeks.

In closing, "to-each-his-own". Educate yourself on why and how you're doing this. ONce you have all the information, do what you feel comfortable with. BUT, whatever you do, once you have a game plan, STICK TO IT and stop looking for opinions unless something is wrong. Otherwise you'll drive yourself nuts. You can't even get two Endocrinolosigst to agree on something so don't plan on getting a bunch of guys like us to agree!!

Peace.

 

[kid1dakota]

Bear in mind, I said the 500mg per week is my opinion-not gospel. My first cycle I started at 300mg per week, and only once I bumped it up to 550mg per week was I happy with my gains. But there is no right or wrong answer. It also depends on your expectations and goals. My opinion is 250mg is too low and not worth shutting your natural test production down over.
As far as trt goes, a lot of doctors will only prescribe 100mg every two weeks, which is just barely enough to maintain sexual activity, but many, that I know personally, self medicate at 200-250mg per week trt, because they were not happy with they're given trt dose.
There are other factors to take into consideration as you age and head towards trt such as higher SHBG levels that affect the efficacy of the trt dose-it's not as cut and dried as simply subtracting the ester weight. It varies from person to person, some can use HCG as trt and are fine others need higher doses of test.

When you were in pharmacology class at med school or D.O. school what was taught to you?
When I was there we were taught to get the patient in normal range without doing any harm in any other areas. meaning elevated Bp,lft's,hemaglobin etc... that is cut and dried my friend!! the purpose of medicine,period.

Your comparing apples to oranges here.self medicated dose about 2 and 1/2 times what body produces VS. physician prescribed dose to bring a hypogonadol male into range.

250mg is not worth shutting down your own test for? thats what you said? most people with diet and training in check will grow like a weed with 2 and a 1/2 times more test in their system.I am mainly speaking of you claiming 250mg is a HRT dose .I am not talking about the supraphysiological levels in cycles.

I think you are parroting what some doorknob on the internet has said somewhere.

many self medicate with heroin too because the 80 mg oxcontin they get doesn't get them high enoughIs that considered pain management to you???? catch my drift??

And actually my talk about ester weight was quite relevant when explaining what the body produces and how much more actual testosterone you are reciving.
Thanks for the endocrinolgy refresher on SHBG and setting me straight on ester weights not being so simple.I was lost but now see the light!!! lol.

I truly think some people should have proper knowlege and not just be parroting from the internet or giving opinions to new members on drugs that could be dangerous!!

 

[kid1dakota]

Op:

You're getting allot of contradicting info here and It's probably confusing, right?

Let's put this in persepctive. First, PCT is not magic. It slightly speeds up what your body is going to do anyway. And, if you're body for some reason is not going to recover, due to some Metabolic issue, SERM's are not going to do anything for you anyway.

So, it's up to you. You can try to recover naturally and it will take longer or you can take anti breast Cancer and Fertility drugs to accelerate the process. Personally, for a light cycle like that, i would probably just try to let my body recover naturally.

Tapering. Long esters Taper all by themselves without any help from you. Sure, you would cut the dose in half the last week; however, I wouldn't get carried away beyond that as it will only extend the period of supression and potentially make recovery more difficult - an issue that is amplified if you decide to recover without PCT. Personally, if I were going to taper, I would just do one extra half dose shot and call it a day.

The AI during the cycle will completely remove the threat of issues when taking an Estrogen Mediated Steroid. Nobody disputes that. The question is this: Is it worth the additional side effects of the AI to reap that benefit and how much is that benefit, really? ON 250 EW for 10-15 weeks, I would personally be inclined to forgo the AI.

HCG. Probably not really needed for such a light cycle but if you have the $ burning a hole in your pocket, it can only help. No real sides to speak of if you keep the dose low.

SERM's. Wether you decide to taper (no PCT) or do a PCT, I would have Nolva hanging out in your supply draw. Nolva is there JUST IN CASE you start to develop breast issues. Aside from that one purpose I would never use Nolva. If you decide to run a PCT, Nolva will work; Clomid seems to work better, in my opinion but bear in mind that the great Nolva vs. Clomid debate has gone on forever and will probably be around just as long.

Finally, I would go 12-16 weeks. 10 weeks on a long estered test? You're not even going to notice it until about week 4 or 5. Although I say that and I can detect an increase of even 100mg within 2 weeks.

In closing, "to-each-his-own". Educate yourself on why and how you're doing this. ONce you have all the information, do what you feel comfortable with. BUT, whatever you do, once you have a game plan, STICK TO IT and stop looking for opinions unless something is wrong. Otherwise you'll drive yourself nuts. You can't even get two Endocrinolosigst to agree on something so don't plan on getting a bunch of guys like us to agree!!
Peace.

Good post

I agree with about 10-12 weeks also.

And I really like that last line,lol.so true!!

 

[curls-for-girls]

Thanks for all the great info everyone. I really appreciate all of your input and time taken to put in your responses!

 

[Ivan]

nice

Op:

You're getting allot of contradicting info here and It's probably confusing, right?

Let's put this in persepctive. First, PCT is not magic. It slightly speeds up what your body is going to do anyway. And, if you're body for some reason is not going to recover, due to some Metabolic issue, SERM's are not going to do anything for you anyway.

So, it's up to you. You can try to recover naturally and it will take longer or you can take anti breast Cancer and Fertility drugs to accelerate the process. Personally, for a light cycle like that, i would probably just try to let my body recover naturally.

Tapering. Long esters Taper all by themselves without any help from you. Sure, you would cut the dose in half the last week; however, I wouldn't get carried away beyond that as it will only extend the period of supression and potentially make recovery more difficult - an issue that is amplified if you decide to recover without PCT. Personally, if I were going to taper, I would just do one extra half dose shot and call it a day.

The AI during the cycle will completely remove the threat of issues when taking an Estrogen Mediated Steroid. Nobody disputes that. The question is this: Is it worth the additional side effects of the AI to reap that benefit and how much is that benefit, really? ON 250 EW for 10-15 weeks, I would personally be inclined to forgo the AI.

HCG. Probably not really needed for such a light cycle but if you have the $ burning a hole in your pocket, it can only help. No real sides to speak of if you keep the dose low.

SERM's. Wether you decide to taper (no PCT) or do a PCT, I would have Nolva hanging out in your supply draw. Nolva is there JUST IN CASE you start to develop breast issues. Aside from that one purpose I would never use Nolva. If you decide to run a PCT, Nolva will work; Clomid seems to work better, in my opinion but bear in mind that the great Nolva vs. Clomid debate has gone on forever and will probably be around just as long.

Finally, I would go 12-16 weeks. 10 weeks on a long estered test? You're not even going to notice it until about week 4 or 5. Although I say that and I can detect an increase of even 100mg within 2 weeks.

In closing, "to-each-his-own". Educate yourself on why and how you're doing this. ONce you have all the information, do what you feel comfortable with. BUT, whatever you do, once you have a game plan, STICK TO IT and stop looking for opinions unless something is wrong. Otherwise you'll drive yourself nuts. You can't even get two Endocrinolosigst to agree on something so don't plan on getting a bunch of guys like us to agree!!

Peace.

When you were in pharmacology class at med school or D.O. school what was taught to you?
When I was there we were taught to get the patient in normal range without doing any harm in any other areas. meaning elevated Bp,lft's,hemaglobin etc... that is cut and dried my friend!! the purpose of medicine,period.

Your comparing apples to oranges here.self medicated dose about 2 and 1/2 times what body produces VS. physician prescribed dose to bring a hypogonadol male into range.

250mg is not worth shutting down your own test for? thats what you said? most people with diet and training in check will grow like a weed with 2 and a 1/2 times more test in their system.I am mainly speaking of you claiming 250mg is a HRT dose .I am not talking about the supraphysiological levels in cycles.

I think you are parroting what some doorknob on the internet has said somewhere.

many self medicate with heroin too because the 80 mg oxcontin they get doesn't get them high enoughIs that considered pain management to you???? catch my drift??

And actually my talk about ester weight was quite relevant when explaining what the body produces and how much more actual testosterone you are reciving.
Thanks for the endocrinolgy refresher on SHBG and setting me straight on ester weights not being so simple.I was lost but now see the light!!! lol.

I truly think some people should have proper knowlege and not just be parroting from the internet or giving opinions to new members on drugs that could be dangerous!!

Curls-for-girls -- These two posts sum up everything you need to know. Trust me I grew wonderfully off of 250mg of omnadren my 1st time. Maldorf is right too.

 

[Yohimbe33]

When you were in pharmacology class at med school or D.O. school what was taught to you?
When I was there we were taught to get the patient in normal range without doing any harm in any other areas. meaning elevated Bp,lft's,hemaglobin etc... that is cut and dried my friend!! the purpose of medicine,period.

Your comparing apples to oranges here.self medicated dose about 2 and 1/2 times what body produces VS. physician prescribed dose to bring a hypogonadol male into range.

250mg is not worth shutting down your own test for? thats what you said? most people with diet and training in check will grow like a weed with 2 and a 1/2 times more test in their system.I am mainly speaking of you claiming 250mg is a HRT dose .I am not talking about the supraphysiological levels in cycles.

I think you are parroting what some doorknob on the internet has said somewhere.

many self medicate with heroin too because the 80 mg oxcontin they get doesn't get them high enoughIs that considered pain management to you???? catch my drift??

And actually my talk about ester weight was quite relevant when explaining what the body produces and how much more actual testosterone you are reciving.
Thanks for the endocrinolgy refresher on SHBG and setting me straight on ester weights not being so simple.I was lost but now see the light!!! lol.

I truly think some people should have proper knowlege and not just be parroting from the internet or giving opinions to new members on drugs that could be dangerous!!

Dude, this sounds like a bit of a personal attack and is uncalled for. I made it very clear this was my opinion and there was nothing wrong with sticking to 250mg per week.
I'm not quoting anyone from the net-this is from my personal experience.
I've done enough enathate cycles and I don't think 250mg/week is the optimum dose for a cycle. Again, MY OPINION
I didn't say what you were saying about ester weight was irrelevant-I said many are not happy with the results of 100mg per week trt and push it to 250mg per week.
You said yourself some generous doctors will prescribe 200mg/week provided it stays within normal ranges, which means there are other factors affecting trt and test levels. One dose is not good for everyone-it is person specific. I do catch your drift, but comparing 250mg/week trt to heroin???????

Point is 250mg per week is not an outrageous trt dose-high but not outrageous-and I know quite a few guys that self medicate to that because they are not happy with the results from the doctor prescribed trt with their test level results being within range, in some cases free test not even high.

Curls apologies for jacking your thread somewhat with this argument-the point of a thread is to get a variety of opinions so you can make your decision.
Good luck with the cycle whichever way you go, and don't forget the protein.

 

[Steve123]

Curls-for-girls -- These two posts sum up everything you need to know. Trust me I grew wonderfully off of 250mg of omnadren my 1st time. Maldorf is right too.

And Curls, just to echo Ivan's point here a bit. I was on 250mg of Test E from Scherring EVERY 10 DAYS (not even weekly). I got blood work done and my Free Test was 395 on a ref range of 35-180. Basically < 250 a week had me > 2x high normal.

I'll tell you right now, if your gear, training and diet are solid; and barring any Endocrine issues, you will do just fine on 250.

 

[kid1dakota]

Dude, this sounds like a bit of a personal attack and is uncalled for. I made it very clear this was my opinion and there was nothing wrong with sticking to 250mg per week.
I'm not quoting anyone from the net-this is from my personal experience.
I've done enough enathate cycles and I don't think 250mg/week is the optimum dose for a cycle. Again, MY OPINION
I didn't say what you were saying about ester weight was irrelevant-I said many are not happy with the results of 100mg per week trt and push it to 250mg per week.
You said yourself some generous doctors will prescribe 200mg/week provided it stays within normal ranges, which means there are other factors affecting trt and test levels. One dose is not good for everyone-it is person specific. I do catch your drift, but comparing 250mg/week trt to heroin???????

Point is 250mg per week is not an outrageous trt dose-high but not outrageous-and I know quite a few guys that self medicate to that because they are not happy with the results from the doctor prescribed trt with their test level results being within range, in some cases free test not even high.

Curls apologies for jacking your thread somewhat with this argument-the point of a thread is to get a variety of opinions so you can make your decision.
Good luck with the cycle whichever way you go, and don't forget the protein.

Myself and quite a few others on this board have a pet peeve.Which is people telling others doing their first cycle to increase the proposed doses right from the get go.That is irresponsible and reckless advice.You can always increase and build upon each cycle.

Curls said he was planning on doing 250 mg which I think is conservative but a smart first cycle dose.And as others have attested to already a first time user will grow fine on that as well as being able to see how his body reacts to increased androgens.

My problem is saying 250 mg is too low and is a HRT dose,it is not! it is a light cycle.I explained factually not my opinion how it is 2 and a 1/2 times the testosterone produced at the peek production time such as puberty.Thats why I explained normal test production and actual test minus esters received from injections etc..

HRT is just as the name states REPLACEMENT of the deficient amount to bring levels into target range.It is not 2 and a half times the peek amount of natural production.The people you decribe obviously like the feeling of being "on" which is fine,but call it what it is a light cycle and not HRT.


My point about the Heroin was if people are off doing their own thing they can try call it "pain management" but it is not.Just as doing light cycles and trying to call it HRT is not correct.

 

[vlad878]

any use in tapering orals or is it useless?

 

[ICU11b]

My problem is saying 250 mg is too low and is a HRT dose,it is not! it is a light cycle.

"Doctor prescribed Testosterone Cypionate 205mg/ml filled here in the US. The prescription reads inject 1cc every 5 days. That comes out to about 300mg/wk. I'm 57 and have been on Doctor prescribed HRT for about 12 years."
-OJS

I can think of two more members that are prescribed more than 250mg wk. Not saying its the norm, proof its out there.

 

[kid1dakota]

any use in tapering orals or is it useless?

It is pretty outdated way to run compounds,but with that being said I do know some older guys at my gym that still do pyramid cycles(increase doses first half and taper second half) and they don't do any PCT.They all competed in 70s and 80s and still look great.

But personally I would run a constant dose for a set number of weeks.

 

[kid1dakota]

"Doctor prescribed Testosterone Cypionate 205mg/ml filled here in the US. The prescription reads inject 1cc every 5 days. That comes out to about 300mg/wk. I'm 57 and have been on Doctor prescribed HRT for about 12 years."
-OJS

I can think of two more members that are prescribed more than 250mg wk. Not saying its the norm, proof its out there.

I know it is out there.I also know of people prescribed between 400-600 mg per week from anti-aging clinics along with deca,winny etc...I have been prescribed 200 mg per week myself.

But the average now that is average dose is about 100 mg per week from an endo or urologist.I have asked many uros and endos and pretty much got this answer across the board.After speaking at length with many, this is what I got.
I was told 100 mg puts people 7 days after injection in the 500-600's
200 mg puts people 7 days after injection in the 700-900's

Now again this is averages not highs or lows.This is also for a hypogonadal patient,not a fully functioning athlete which changes things tremendously.

 

[Yohimbe33]

.................

 

[kid1dakota]

.................

Think what you want mr. twenty posts,lol.

I have explained it every way to sunday and you come back with the same answers.Some people are just thick I think what I am posting is way over your head!! "dose specific,dose specific,dose specific"" WTF ?

I have given specific numbers and averages and you come back with stupid answers,whatever.

Yes you are coming across as a "Doorknob" not quite what I'm thinking but we'll keep it nice.

 

[Yohimbe33]

Think what you want mr. twenty posts,lol.

I have explained it every way to sunday and you come back with the same answers.Some people are just thick I think what I am posting is way over your head!! "dose specific,dose specific,dose specific"" WTF ?

I have given specific numbers and averages and you come back with stupid answers,whatever.

Yes you are coming across as a "Doorknob" not quite what I'm thinking but we'll keep it nice.

Agree to disagree

Peace