Terry Schiavo...I need ot get this off my chest

[gooey]

Once again....

So this is a "morality " issue? What a joke. Our incredibly corrupt society decides suddenly to intervene in this man's wishes to end his wife's live with siome dignity and suddenly everyone finds the time to comment on the "morality "of the situation. If this situatuion wasn't so serious it wuld be a joke. Whose morals? Yours? Gods? congress? Other soceity drops every thing to the lowest possible demonitor and all the sudden people bring up morality at this time! Is it moral to execute people on death row? Is it moral to deny the homeless food and shelter? What does the bible say about helping the needy? I am sure most religous conveniently forget about what Jesus said abouttaking care of those in need. Today we throw out insurance for children of the poor, do away with subsides to help the needy, rountinely allow people to die due to lack of access to timely healthcare, hand out weapons to warring countries etc. Where is the cry about "morality " on these issuses? Once again everyone wants to comment on a person matter that is NOT their business but no one is willing to step up and talk about the ture moral decay in our society and Scavios' death is the least of our worries on those lines.

u have hit the nail squarely on the head, such good aim and correctiveness, well said
gooey

 

[doug1]

So If Im terminally ill, Im going to die anyway and I just want to decide when and how... that is going to make GOD send me to hell?
The moral aspect of this situation is the heated side of the case. The legal power of a "power of attorney" is binding and was up help by every judge which reviewed the case. If you have a wish to die verses live like a veg. then this case has granted those wishes will still be upheld if your time is at hand.
The right to chose. Terry "GAVE" her husband that right. I would give the right to anyone but the government in deciding my fate.
As far as your statement "blood for blood" didnt Jesus say "turn the other cheek"
If the court ruled cases based on the Bible's laws, we'd all be executed. And let me just add, this case (about TERRY) has been in various courts for the better part of 3 years its just now being made a media fest.

i'm sorry, where did i ever say that suicide is an instant ticket to hell? yes we are sent to hell because we are sinners, but we're sent there more specifically for our unbelief in Christ's work on the cross.
Jesus's words (Matt5)turn the other cheek refers to being slapped on the right cheek, most people are right handed so to slap someone on the their right cheek refers more to being insulted. when Jesus talks about an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth He was refering to vengeange that was going overboard and doing more harm to the offender than what they deserved. in the Old Testament they were in what was called a Theocracy, where God was the government to them, then they wanted a king and the power of justice was taken out of the hands of the individual and given to the government. this is talked about by Paul in the book of Romans 13:4. That's why Jesus was crucified and not stoned, the Romans executed by crucifixion and the Jews exucuted by stoning. The Jews had thier authority taken away by the Romans when they took over. it was the Jews crying out to crucify Him, if they had the ability to stone Him they would have, this of course was all part of God's soverign plan.
as far as our condition(everyone would be dead) if we were tried under the Bible's laws, your right MANY of us would be six feet under with myself included. this is a testament to the grace of God, the fact that we even are still alive. God is immutable, He does not change, what angered Him a few thousand years ago still angers Him today. and don't think for a second that he's impotent because "nothing has happened yet", He's just long suffering waiting for His elect to come to Him. again, i'm don't have all the answers to this shiavo case, and i don't want to come across as saying that i do.
I would be happy to discuss any other Biblical questions but it should be a totally seperate thread.

 

[Tazzy1]

I may sound cold.... but!

This case really affects almost nobody! Its just a big story for the news media to hype up. I think that judges and congress and people in general play GOD too much. If the girl didnt have the feeding tube then she would die.. and that is the natural way of things. I believe we are playing GOD by leaving the feeding tube in. Its funny that most of these religous people coming out of the woodwork holding up signs having religous incontations are the most reluctant to "meet" God. Boy they dont have any problem telling me what GOD thinks and how GOD would act.. and what is a sin.. and what isnt!

And ask yourself a question. Do you really know anyone that has said: If Im in a vegatative state and I need machines to help me breathe or eat.. keep me alive that way! No you havent.. you have heard 99.9% of people tell you to "pull the plug" This girl was once a beautiful fit woman.. and I cannot imagine that she would want her life prolonged this way. Im a spiritual person.. (spiritual mind you , not religous) and I would rather her being happy with our GOD than down here laying in a bed not having any quality of life.

Here is a thought! Most people dont know about the 1000's of 22-24 week old premees that are born in this country and have to be incubated just to stay alive. The fetus/infants for some reason are born at 22 weeks, have brains, working hearts but cannot survive without an incubator and breathing machines.. they cannot grow or mature in the incubator.. and thousands of these fetus/infants are allowed to die. But you dont hear things bout this because the fetus/infants do not have an identity. And the press cannot make a big ass deal out of something that doesnt have an identity. In other words, its not big news..
Im just saying if your going to fight the good fight, do it with knowledge and fight for all those in this situation,, not just one girl that you dont know.. and if the press didnt give her all this attention, you would have never even known about it..

 

[gooey]

another...

well said statement, very true brother

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Last statement

Until you help create a life, you cant appreciate how important that life is to you. Become a father or mother, then decide if you need to remove that plug.

 

[titanicokc]

I cannot watch much more on TV because I personally become depressed. I cannot judge Mr. Schiavo, but I do not know that I trust his judgement, wife on feeding tube, 6 year involvement with another woman, 2 children with her. Why no divorce? Maybe it has to do with a million dollar settlement, that as long a Terri is " alive" is her's and her husband's. Money can make people make irrational decisions. I saw this in my own family when my Grandmother passed away. If the medical world could show me evidence that my loved one had absolutely NO brain activity, I think I could make a decision to "let them go", but if they could not show me that evidence, my conscious would not let me be the cause of their physical death. My .02

 

[Creator_11]

This story really bring to mind quality of life vs. quantity of life.

I don't know the whole story behind everything, and frankly I don't want to because either way this situation is sad. I don't know if personally speaking I would want to be kept to a bed with a feeding tube if I became physically/mentally handicap, so I can live longer. I sort of understanf where the husband says his wife never wished to carry on like this, only him and her owuld know that, since things of this nature are shared between each other on a very loving/sharing intimate level that perhaps schiavo parents would not know anything about. Course if money is involded this changes things, I think.

This somewhat remind me of my grandmother who died last year. She opted to not get kemo to treat her cancer, since it was eventually going to end her life. She chose to spend more quality time with my family and I, rather then more live a bit longer but suffer the pain of the kemo and staying in the hospital.

But ultimately this stroy will have no good ending to it.

 

[Tazzy1]

Not to get into it..

I understand Mr. Herndon.. I do have 2 children that I love very dearly and Yes I can honestly say.. that after some time.. and Im talking a few weeks.. if my child was braindead or brain damaged so severly that she she had to be fed or kept alive by machines.. then Yes, I would pull the plug and give her organs to someone that could use them.. And I hope that she would do the same for me if I was in the same situation.

Like I said before when it comes to the politics and the press of this country.. how quickly they forgot about the steroid controversy with baseball.. its like the whole news media and congresspeople have severe ADD..

 

[mung]

First, I have not had time to read all the responses but it is somewhat surprising at some of the comments thusfar.

It is sad to know, at a human level, that someone is laying in a bed starving to death. It has also been pointed out the mental state of Mrs. Schiavo. But the underlying issue is certainly of civil rights. And coming from a BB board where you can read daily people complaining about steroid intervention by our government, do we really want the courts deciding cases like this?

This is not to say, that Mr. Schiavo couldn't simply release legal custody of his wife to her family. The ones willing and begging for her to come home where they can care for her. Even the Dr.'s involoved cannot tell if she is responsive, in a congitive way. Not gutteral utterances, but meditated response. And it may be that someday she could come out of it, it is just that to this point in time, someone in her state has never recovered. We will sadly never know her true wishes, which is her own fault for not having a living will.

And for those of you who are sickened by the fact they removed the feeding tube...have you ever volunteered at a retirement or nursing home? There are so many people out there who simply need someone to feed them and talk to them and simply be with them at dinner or lunch or whatever...and even more sad, these people can talk, these people can interact and they can speak for themselves, but we do not get outraged at this crisis. There is such a shortage of staff at these places some elderly simply go ignored because they do not have the time or staff to feed them. If you really are that concerned, go be with an elderly person who would gladly accept your help with a feeding. The Press doesn't report that either, but I'm not going to act surprised by it either.

 

[Creator_11]

Like I said before when it comes to the politics and the press of this country.. how quickly they forgot about the steroid controversy with baseball.. its like the whole news media and congresspeople have severe ADD..

Don't forget there's an Iraq war still going on. Funny how you don't see as much news coverage of it anymore. They just skim over it pretty quickly.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

First, I have not had time to read all the responses but it is somewhat surprising at some of the comments thusfar.

It is sad to know, at a human level, that someone is laying in a bed starving to death. It has also been pointed out the mental state of Mrs. Schiavo. But the underlying issue is certainly of civil rights. And coming from a BB board where you can read daily people complaining about steroid intervention by our government, do we really want the courts deciding cases like this?

This is not to say, that Mr. Schiavo couldn't simply release legal custody of his wife to her family. The ones willing and begging for her to come home where they can care for her. Even the Dr.'s involoved cannot tell if she is responsive, in a congitive way. Not gutteral utterances, but meditated response. And it may be that someday she could come out of it, it is just that to this point in time, someone in her state has never recovered. We will sadly never know her true wishes, which is her own fault for not having a living will.

And for those of you who are sickened by the fact they removed the feeding tube...have you ever volunteered at a retirement or nursing home? There are so many people out there who simply need someone to feed them and talk to them and simply be with them at dinner or lunch or whatever...and even more sad, these people can talk, these people can interact and they can speak for themselves, but we do not get outraged at this crisis. There is such a shortage of staff at these places some elderly simply go ignored because they do not have the time or staff to feed them. If you really are that concerned, go be with an elderly person who would gladly accept your help with a feeding. The Press doesn't report that either, but I'm not going to act surprised by it either.

Volunteering and concern has nothing to do with this. Her parents volunteer, are concerned, and wish to help and care for her at home the rest of her life. My problem with this case is the lack of concern. What is wrong with the fact that I am sickened by the removal of her feeding tube? Do you think that this is the only atrocity going on in the world? Can we save everyone? No. Can we do our part and express how we feel and show concern and empathy? Yes.

 

[Reload]

http://www.reason.com/links/links102303.shtml

Separating fact from emotion is also waranted when dealing with life and death issues.

 

[mung]

Volunteering and concern may not have anything to do with this case specifically, as it was brought up as an opinion to the people who petition about something they do absolutely nothing about. And saving everyone? That has even less to do with this, as actions speak louder than words. Of course there are other evils going on in the world, no one would doubt that for a second, but you do not point out worse behavior to justify bad behavior. It is sad that Mr. Sciavo won't let her parents have custody of her, I think that would be a good setllement, but maybe Mrs. Schiavo did not want that either, we will never know. And Phil, there is nothing wrong with your concern. I think, as I stated earlier, at a human level it is very sad but unfortunately until we change the laws, Mr. Schiavo has the last say, as sad as the specific situation may be. No one wants to sit by and watch someone starve. We can show our concern by acting. Yes. This has never happened to me, so I cannot empathize, but I can sympathize. I did however, just watch my grandfather pass away in situation somewhat like this...could not even feed himself.

 

[doug1]

quote

this situation brings a quote to mind, i don't know who said it, but here it is
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing."

 

[Homer]

....This is not to say, that Mr. Schiavo couldn't simply release legal custody of his wife to her family. The ones willing and begging for her to come home where they can care for her. Even the Dr.'s involoved cannot tell if she is responsive, in a congitive way. Not gutteral utterances, but meditated response. And it may be that someday she could come out of it, it is just that to this point in time, someone in her state has never recovered. We will sadly never know her true wishes, which is her own fault for not having a living will.

Yes he could release her to her parents so they could keep her partially alive for many years just to keep themselves "happy", BUT: If it was my wife, who I love more than anything and I know she would not want to live in this manner, I would fight with the last breath of air I had to honnor her wishes to pass on to the afterlife.
Think about that.
If it was your wife and you knew what she wanted done could you live with yourself to keep her in this state just because her parents wouldn't let her go?

 

[Nssca]

Well lets not make this into a religious debate, I have no faith in what the bible has to say for the most part so i wont go down that road with you. This "has" become a issue of religious morallity. For most people. Yet, Morality difines our boundries as a society and it is for the good. The only problem is the bible is viewed as the only measure of that standard.
Back to terry: When she signed the DPOA(durable power of attorney) she never thought she would ever need it. Most of us never think something like that will ever happen to us. But, as with our religious mind set and the medical community, both views death as failure. Dr. and nurses are trained to "first do no harm" death is bad, life ,at all costs is prefered. When we as a species begin to understand that sometimes death is better than life,that death is a relief in some cases. The right to die is a on going issue, blocked by the religious views of our society. I side with her husband. Ive seen nursing home residents on feeding tubes. Its sad to see someone live that way. If your family pet became so ill it could not function, the vet would do the "human thing" and put it to sleep. But have grandma in the same situation and its a sin to let her die. Thats makes no sense to me.

 

[Crowler]

Just a thought.

Scott Peterson could have bashed his wife's head in, not with intent to kill but just enough for permenant brain damage. He would have been tried and convicted of assault.

He could then say HEY WAIT take her feeding tube out and starve her to death because she told me one time she wouldn't want one.

He would then have the blessing of 65% of the country and only have to do 6 to 10 years.

 

[doug1]

Well lets not make this into a religious debate, I have no faith in what the bible has to say for the most part so i wont go down that road with you. This "has" become a issue of religious morallity. For most people.

It's funny how you quoted Jesus' words which are found in a book that you have no faith in. You won't go down this road with me because i'll stand on the word of God with a good grasp of the truths found there in and you'll stand on what will be nothing more than your opinion. This is a free country and you have a right to your opinion and you have a right to have "no faith in what the bible says." Unfortunately this does not change the reality of the bible one little bit. Go out into the street and stand in the middle of it and say to yourself "I don't believe that this is a truck coming and I won't get run over and die." See how much your lack of faith effects that reality my friend...
As for the statement that this has become an issue of religious morallity, it may have become for this for you, but almost everything in life is an issue of morallity whether we realize it or not, very, very few things are neutral.

 

[Skip]

Just a thought.

Scott Peterson could have bashed his wife's head in, not with intent to kill but just enough for permenant brain damage. He would have been tried and convicted of assault.

He could then say HEY WAIT take her feeding tube out and starve her to death because she told me one time she wouldn't want one.

He would then have the blessing of 65% of the country and only have to do 6 to 10 years.

See, criminals are so stupid. Had he only given it more thought.

I got a chuckle out of your point, though. hehe

Skip

 

[ringyramjet]

Hi there,

Maybe someone else mentioned this in the thread earlier but the stopping of the feeding is not a bad way to die, they continue with fluid but stopping the feeding just makes you weaker and weaker and feel sleepy and lethargic, if you were of sound mind and body there would be very little if any suffering at all.

Hope this makes you feel a little better about the way she will die.