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Test and Tendons

Elvia1023

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Was just researching this topic and first in the list was this thread by MarkyM. Just thought you may find it useful.

Tendons and Sterois use

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.
 

concreteguy

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Good read! Wonder where tren falls into this?

CG
 

jt7

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thanks, i wonder where dbol ranks as far as being good or bad for the tendons
 

Kaladryn

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Some of the above info is accurate, some is not necessarily so. The author of the OP is mixing in vitro and in vivo studies. He is also siting info involving massive doses relative to bodyweight. To me, all of the above info is suspect.
 

animalsd

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This was posted in the article forum awhile back. I do not believe there are any scientific studies to back this up or when someone asked for studies, none could be produced.
 

animalsd

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Some of the above info is accurate, some is not necessarily so. The author of the OP is mixing in vitro and in vivo studies. He is also siting info involving massive doses relative to bodyweight. To me, all of the above info is suspect.
270mg/wk of deca for a 200lb person is not massive at all.
 

Elvia1023

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I am not validating all the above info. Although like many on here over the years I have come across most of the info I posted in bits. But it was an interesting read to have it all together. I researched it directly as it is important to me after all these long cycles. I don't doubt lots of the info in there will not be 100% accurate but again it was very helpful for me. I know the subject is paramount in many lives... especially those who blast and cruise. My advice would be to all research the above statements and find out for yourselves. I would appreciate it if you could post some of your findings as I am a total newbie to the subject. The more info we can find on this the better as it isn't discussed all that often.
 

thebrick

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I have always seen these numbers thrown out there for "increased collagen synthesis" for certain AS… but where are the studies all this is based on?
 

Elvia1023

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I do find it funny that certain threads are viewed lots and then when one posts lots follow... usually with similar responses. I am not saying this thread cos there are only a few replies. But it did make me think of those threads. Good info above but like I said some more would be useful... especially any human stuides performed). Although I am aware there aren't many human studies regarding most AAS subjects (at over TRT doses).
 

Elvia1023

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Some of the above info is accurate, some is not necessarily so. The author of the OP is mixing in vitro and in vivo studies. He is also siting info involving massive doses relative to bodyweight. To me, all of the above info is suspect.
No massive doses were involved. Can you please explain what info is accurate and what is not (in your opinion). Numbers are thrown about on many subjects. I don't have a clue about any of the above numbers. Aren't most of the studies many on here use as references are from both vitro and vivo... mainly vivo of course.
 

Elvia1023

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Good read! Wonder where tren falls into this?

CG
I wonder too cos I have been on tren e for 9 weeks now... I am quite fond of it as I am one of the rare ones who feels fine on it. Saying that alittle bit of 5-HTP helps
 

msforr75

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thanks, i wonder where dbol ranks as far as being good or bad for the tendons
I would think bdol would be quite good for tendons due to the IGF increase from the first pass through the liver. But bad due to the quick strength boost and strain on the joints from lifting heavier. Just a guess.

But really, the only thing that'll help tendons long term is GH and maybe some of the peptides.
 
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jt7

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yea i figured dbol itself would help, but definitely agree that the quick strength increase would possibly offset it
 

10brandonr

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The whole article is bullshit! find me one reference, citation, study, or piece of research that support any of those claims. The author made up numbers and all the broscientists picked that shit up like gold.
 

ctgblue

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That's why I finally had to add deca almost all the time
I'm on HRT and after a torn ligament and now some chronic tendonitis, I've had to include it.
I do notice it when I cycle off of it, a little more achy in the joints

I also take Glucosamine, MSM and Cissus, I REALLY notice when I don't take those
 
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jimmyjones

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The whole article is bullshit! find me one reference, citation, study, or piece of research that support any of those claims. The author made up numbers and all the broscientists picked that shit up like gold.

+1


Test at 750mg a week keeps me nice and full, and my joints happy...what the fuck is this?
 

Elvia1023

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+1


Test at 750mg a week keeps me nice and full, and my joints happy...what the fuck is this?
Fair enough. But do you cycle on and off? Have you ever cycled 750mg for 20 weeks? It may keep you full but I don't believe it will keep your joints happy. Like I said above I don't know the answers but I always was told testosterone was bad for tendons. I have asked numerous doctors about this and they agreed. Where are they getting their info from if it isn't true. Obviously genetics will play a major role as it is everything in life. Some may never be effected.

A pushdown machine wire snapped on me and my arms were quickly rasied up. As a result I injured my shoulder.... blah blah... seen one of the senior doctors in local hospital and when I took my shirt off the first question he asked is do I take steriods. I said no just pro hormones. He goes on to mention how testosterone weakens tendons etc. I don't think he believed me cos he mentioned a few other things... and actually he was really knowledgable unlike most (nearly all) of the doctors I have met in the past.

Anyway if thats what you expeience then thats good cos you obviously don't have issues. But for many of us I reckon this is an interesting subject.
 

Elvia1023

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That's why I finally had to add deca almost all the time
I'm on HRT and after a torn ligament and now some chronic tendonitis, I've had to include it.
I do notice it when I cycle off of it, a little more achy in the joints

I also take Glucosamine, MSM and Cissus, I REALLY notice when I don't take those
At the moment I can't do a heavy leg workout without deca in my system... bad I know. Been on a long cycle and since I stopped deca I can't lift heavy with my legs. I wish I could just swop my knees with someone.

Just adding I may have come across alittle moody at the top. Did I mention I am on tren e haha. Not bad at all. But just upped my dose to 450mg to finish off... so have noticed the difference :)
 
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heylo

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this article has been around for years but i would love to know where he got that number about EQ increasing collagen synthesis because i havent seen one study on EQ and collagen synthesis
 

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