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Test E 500mg disappointment, non responder?

smok44

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Hi, this is my first post here, I have posted the same thread on another forum a few weeks ago but didn't get
feedback that would really explain my case. It seems on this forum there's a lot of very experienced people, I hope someone can help me!

I'm 39 yo, have been lifting since I was 14, except a short dbol cycle when I was 19 I trained natty all my life, too scared of steroids :) Probably due to a low genetic potential I've never achieved any impressive results, especially my chest has always been weak, could never bench more than 225lb. At 6'0 most of the time I weighed around 200lb, probably around 18% bf.

Then a few years ago I finally started counting calories and realized that I've been always eating far too much, permabulking. I went on a cut and dropped my weight to 165lb, 8% bf. This calorie restriction, mixed with a stressful job, made my naturally low testosterone levels drop even further and I was diagnosed with hypogonagism, put on TRT. I got Tostran gel from my doctor, 6 doses a day, which gives around 40mg testosterone weekly. Not much, but at the beginning it worked great, suddenly all my lifts went up 10%, never was that strong before. After a while I lost some of this strength again, probably my own testosterone production was shut down.

I decided to add something to my TRT on my own, first I opted for Anavar, 40mg ED for 6 weeks, I experienced some strange pumps in my calves but nothing else, don't know if it was legit Anavar. A few months passed and I tried Tbol this time, 50mg ED for 6 weeks. I got slightly stronger and put on 5-6 pounds, but it was far below expectations, lost all these gains after the cycle anyway.

During all this time my doctor didn't want to change my dosage of Tostran, in my country the only other option is Nebido, he didn't want to put me on it. My checkups were very rare, every few months.

So lately I decided it was finally time to become friends with the syringe, I started a 12 weeks test e cycle at 500mg a week, 250mg on Mondays and 250mg on Thursdays. I have pharm grade testosterone and pharm grade aromasin, I take 12,5mg EOD. Now 12 weeks have passed and.... nothing happened !!! No muscle or strength gains whatsoever!! I've put on around 8 pounds but I can see in the mirror it's mostly if not only fat. It seems my metabolic rate is increased because I eat 4200kcal a day, over 1000 above my regular maintenance and I've only gained 8 pounds in 10 weeks, but it doesn't translate into muscle gains. I did some blood work after 7 weeks and the results were quite good, hematocrit a little high but everything else in range. Total testosterone 2100, not terrific but high enough to expect good gains, SHBG 28 so the free testosterone values were also really good. Estradiol showed at 50, a little high but nothing dramatic that could hinder gains.
So what the hell is going on !? My diet is really good, plenty of high quality proteins, carbs and fats. I train really hard but don't overtrain, get a lot of rest. Maybe I just don't respond well to AAS and should try higher dosages, but in this case why did the very low dose of Tostran work so well at the beginning of my TRT? What do you guys think, any advice? I don't have extreme expectations but my dream is to get to 210lb at 10%bf, right now it's 195lb at probably 15%bf, I look worse than before the cycle...
 

ThinkTank

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Hi, this is my first post here, I have posted the same thread on another forum a few weeks ago but didn't get
feedback that would really explain my case. It seems on this forum there's a lot of very experienced people, I hope someone can help me!

I'm 39 yo, have been lifting since I was 14, except a short dbol cycle when I was 19 I trained natty all my life, too scared of steroids :) Probably due to a low genetic potential I've never achieved any impressive results, especially my chest has always been weak, could never bench more than 225lb. At 6'0 most of the time I weighed around 200lb, probably around 18% bf.

Then a few years ago I finally started counting calories and realized that I've been always eating far too much, permabulking. I went on a cut and dropped my weight to 165lb, 8% bf. This calorie restriction, mixed with a stressful job, made my naturally low testosterone levels drop even further and I was diagnosed with hypogonagism, put on TRT. I got Tostran gel from my doctor, 6 doses a day, which gives around 40mg testosterone weekly. Not much, but at the beginning it worked great, suddenly all my lifts went up 10%, never was that strong before. After a while I lost some of this strength again, probably my own testosterone production was shut down.

I decided to add something to my TRT on my own, first I opted for Anavar, 40mg ED for 6 weeks, I experienced some strange pumps in my calves but nothing else, don't know if it was legit Anavar. A few months passed and I tried Tbol this time, 50mg ED for 6 weeks. I got slightly stronger and put on 5-6 pounds, but it was far below expectations, lost all these gains after the cycle anyway.

During all this time my doctor didn't want to change my dosage of Tostran, in my country the only other option is Nebido, he didn't want to put me on it. My checkups were very rare, every few months.

So lately I decided it was finally time to become friends with the syringe, I started a 12 weeks test e cycle at 500mg a week, 250mg on Mondays and 250mg on Thursdays. I have pharm grade testosterone and pharm grade aromasin, I take 12,5mg EOD. Now 12 weeks have passed and.... nothing happened !!! No muscle or strength gains whatsoever!! I've put on around 8 pounds but I can see in the mirror it's mostly if not only fat. It seems my metabolic rate is increased because I eat 4200kcal a day, over 1000 above my regular maintenance and I've only gained 8 pounds in 10 weeks, but it doesn't translate into muscle gains. I did some blood work after 7 weeks and the results were quite good, hematocrit a little high but everything else in range. Total testosterone 2100, not terrific but high enough to expect good gains, SHBG 28 so the free testosterone values were also really good. Estradiol showed at 50, a little high but nothing dramatic that could hinder gains.
So what the hell is going on !? My diet is really good, plenty of high quality proteins, carbs and fats. I train really hard but don't overtrain, get a lot of rest. Maybe I just don't respond well to AAS and should try higher dosages, but in this case why did the very low dose of Tostran work so well at the beginning of my TRT? What do you guys think, any advice? I don't have extreme expectations but my dream is to get to 210lb at 10%bf, right now it's 195lb at probably 15%bf, I look worse than before the cycle...
Many variables come into play here. Let's start on the assumption that you train consistently hard, and eat properly.

What brand test is it?
 

smok44

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It's Galenika. I bought it from a trusted local reseller here
where I live, in Norway.
Of course you never know 100%, it could be fake, but
a lab result of 2100ng/dl total testosterone suggests that it's rather legit gear...
 

borcic0

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I know if estrogen is too high it negates any test increase... I've tried proviron with my test when I didn't get the results I initially wanted and bam the test worked wonderfully ... Proviron acts to reduce SHBG and increases free test whilst acting as a very very mild ai. I would add low dose aromasin and 25mg proviron ed.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
 

maldorf

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Well, your blood levels are way over normal. Normal would be between 600 and 1000 or so. You should be gaining strength and some weight. You say you gained 8 pounds, and if that was mostly muscle then that would be pretty decent, but you say you think it was all fat.

Did you gain any strength at all? Looking in the mirror you look less muscular now?

Since your blood level is high and you put on 8 pounds that means you are eating enough food and that the test is legit. One possibility would be that you aren't taking in enough protein and maybe too many calories from fat and carbs. I would aim for about 1 gram per pound of bodyweight. You have been measuring that out?

Another possibility would be that you aren't training hard enough or the correct way. Its possible you might be putting in the volume of work but it is not intense enough. What is your routine exactly? Rep range, sets, exercises etc. I think this is most likely the problem.

Since you aren't built pretty good already you should have been able to put on strength and muscle lifting naturally, if your natural test wasn't low, for 12 weeks if your diet and training were good. Something is amiss.
 

j4ever

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you should post up your training routine and your daily diet.
 

smok44

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Thanks for all the replies !

Two years ago I've switched from a typical bro split to Push Pull Legs.
I train 5 times a week ( sometimes 4 when I feel I need more time to recover ).
I alternate between one heavy workout with heavier weights, less volume, lower reps ( 4-8 ) and one hypertrophy workout ( more sets and exercises,
8-15 reps ).

My typical leg workout :

10 minutes warm-up on stationary bike
3 warm up sets of front squats ( I can no longer do back squats, they hurt my lower back )
3 working sets of front squats, as many reps as I can with 225lb, typically 7,6,5, the last set is a drop set
3 sets of barbell lunges
4 sets romanian deadlifts
3 sets of leg press ( 15 reps per set )
4 sets of calf raises

My typical pull workout :

warm-up
4 sets of weighted pull-ups ( 12,10,8,7 reps ), drop set at the end
4 sets of barbell rows ( 15,10,8,8 reps ) drop set at the end
3 sets of narrow grip pull-downs (10,9,8 reps ) drop set at the end
3 sets of cable rows ( 12,12,10 reps )
3 sets of rear delt cable pulls ( 15,12,12 reps )
3 sets of barbell curls ( 10,9,8 reps )

My typical push workout :

warm-up
3 warm-up sets of dumbbell incline presses ( currently I'm not using
a barbell, it gives me shoulder pain )
3 working sets of dumbbell incline presses ( 10,8,6 reps ) drop set at the end
3 set of decline dumbbell presses ( 10,8,6 reps ) drop set at the end
4 sets of cable flyes ( 15,12,10,10 reps )
4 sets of dumbbell shoulder presses ( 12,10,8,8 reps ) drop set at the end
3 sets of dumbbell side laterals ( 15,12,10 reps )
3 sets of E-Z bar skullcrushers (12,10,8 reps )

During my bulking phase I don't do much cardio, just fast walking 5-10km
1-3 times a week

Concerning my diet, I don't eat exactly the same each day. I also don't
count carbs, fats and proteins separately, but I do count the calories very
precisely and make sure to eat a lot of protein with each meal. Before this 12 week Test E cycle I was eating 3000kcal a day, it seemed to be my maintenance. I started this cycle at 3800kcal and finished at 4500kcal, as the weight was going up very slowly.

My typical day on 4500kcal :

Meal 1 : 3 whole bread sandwiches with low fat cheese and ham, 2 eggs,
3 egg whites
Meal 2 : oats with whey isolate
Meal 3 : white rice with chicken breast and broccoli
Meal 4 : home made own recipe protein ice-cream ( frozen blueberries,
avocado, whey isolate, cottage cheese, peanut butter, sweetener,
cocoa powder, ice cubes, everything blended together )
Meal 4 : potatoes with white fish and green beans
Meal 5 preworkout : cereals with whey isolate
Meal 6 : cottage cheese with strawberries and almonds

Again, I really don't think diet or training is the issue here. I know from the beginning of my TRT and from my DBol cycle long ago how it feels when the
hormones start working, when all of a sudden I can do 2 more reps on each exercise or add 10kg to the barbell. I didn't happen during this cycle. Maybe a few times during these 12 weeks it seemed to me it started working, I felt slightly stronger, but then on the next workout I felt weaker again, how dissapointing. As if something was counteracting, blocking the testosterone from working. Could it be some kind of medical issue, a problem with my receptors or something ? As I've mentioned, my E2 was a little high but
not drastically, I don't think it could be the problem, I was taking
Aromasin 12.5mg EOD.

At the moment I'm not going back on this Tostran gel, I' ve started cruising on 200mg Test E weekly and gradually dropping calories to lean out for the summer. Maybe I just don't respond well to long esthers and should try something different next time ?
 

brutus69

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do u have bloodwork from when u were on that prescribed trt dose?
id like to see what yr multiple was. 500/wk now and 2100 is only a tad over 4x which is pretty low. unless yr a low responder and that would be seen if it was a low multiple when u were on the tostran. then again, gel v injects....still can be a relevant comparison.
and also if u have those bloods what was yr free test?
total can be high and still have low free, meaning u aint got as much usable test as u may think.
if my blood level was 2100 id def be getting stonger and bigger than my typical 850-900 where i try to stay.
 

Lncharge

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4500 calories I'd gain without AAS..
Test wouldnt put on the weight but 4500 you shouldn't be able to keep the weight off.. maybe your calculations are off? I'd still add another compound

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

jeroendebleser

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[lang=nl]
Hi, this is my first post here, I have posted the same thread on another forum a few weeks ago but didn't get
feedback that would really explain my case. It seems on this forum there's a lot of very experienced people, I hope someone can help me!

I'm 39 yo, have been lifting since I was 14, except a short dbol cycle when I was 19 I trained natty all my life, too scared of steroids :) Probably due to a low genetic potential I've never achieved any impressive results, especially my chest has always been weak, could never bench more than 225lb. At 6'0 most of the time I weighed around 200lb, probably around 18% bf.

Then a few years ago I finally started counting calories and realized that I've been always eating far too much, permabulking. I went on a cut and dropped my weight to 165lb, 8% bf. This calorie restriction, mixed with a stressful job, made my naturally low testosterone levels drop even further and I was diagnosed with hypogonagism, put on TRT. I got Tostran gel from my doctor, 6 doses a day, which gives around 40mg testosterone weekly. Not much, but at the beginning it worked great, suddenly all my lifts went up 10%, never was that strong before. After a while I lost some of this strength again, probably my own testosterone production was shut down.

I decided to add something to my TRT on my own, first I opted for Anavar, 40mg ED for 6 weeks, I experienced some strange pumps in my calves but nothing else, don't know if it was legit Anavar. A few months passed and I tried Tbol this time, 50mg ED for 6 weeks. I got slightly stronger and put on 5-6 pounds, but it was far below expectations, lost all these gains after the cycle anyway.

During all this time my doctor didn't want to change my dosage of Tostran, in my country the only other option is Nebido, he didn't want to put me on it. My checkups were very rare, every few months.

So lately I decided it was finally time to become friends with the syringe, I started a 12 weeks test e cycle at 500mg a week, 250mg on Mondays and 250mg on Thursdays. I have pharm grade testosterone and pharm grade aromasin, I take 12,5mg EOD. Now 12 weeks have passed and.... nothing happened !!! No muscle or strength gains whatsoever!! I've put on around 8 pounds but I can see in the mirror it's mostly if not only fat. It seems my metabolic rate is increased because I eat 4200kcal a day, over 1000 above my regular maintenance and I've only gained 8 pounds in 10 weeks, but it doesn't translate into muscle gains. I did some blood work after 7 weeks and the results were quite good, hematocrit a little high but everything else in range. Total testosterone 2100, not terrific but high enough to expect good gains, SHBG 28 so the free testosterone values were also really good. Estradiol showed at 50, a little high but nothing dramatic that could hinder gains.
So what the hell is going on !? My diet is really good, plenty of high quality proteins, carbs and fats. I train really hard but don't overtrain, get a lot of rest. Maybe I just don't respond well to AAS and should try higher dosages, but in this case why did the very low dose of Tostran work so well at the beginning of my TRT? What do you guys think, any advice? I don't have extreme expectations but my dream is to get to 210lb at 10%bf, right now it's 195lb at probably 15%bf, I look worse than before the cycle...
I don't think a 'non-responder' exists, at least not literally. You might however be a 'slow responder' or a 'low responder' if you will. I'm in the same boat. Basically I respond to AAS in the same manner as I respond to other medications. Poorly. 500 mg Testosterone per week was my first cycle and I got little out of it. I thought to myself: "are these those magic steroids?". My 2nd cycle I tried 900 mg Test per week and guess what, that magic started showing.

Why exactly that is so I don't know but there are viable theories as for why this happens to people. (things like some people being rapid metabolizers which translates into drugs being out of the system too soon, etc...)

In practice this means you will need simply higher dosages than many other people unfortunately. However, if you are in this category (and I do suspect so), you will also get less or less severe side effects than most other people. It's a shame we have to feel it in our wallets more but it is what it is, either you deal with it by dosing higher or you can believe in the 'non-responder'-crap :)

Good luck[/lang]
 
Last edited:

jeroendebleser

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[lang=nl]
Well, your blood levels are way over normal. Normal would be between 600 and 1000 or so. You should be gaining strength and some weight. You say you gained 8 pounds, and if that was mostly muscle then that would be pretty decent, but you say you think it was all fat.

Did you gain any strength at all? Looking in the mirror you look less muscular now?

Since your blood level is high and you put on 8 pounds that means you are eating enough food and that the test is legit. One possibility would be that you aren't taking in enough protein and maybe too many calories from fat and carbs. I would aim for about 1 gram per pound of bodyweight. You have been measuring that out?

Another possibility would be that you aren't training hard enough or the correct way. Its possible you might be putting in the volume of work but it is not intense enough. What is your routine exactly? Rep range, sets, exercises etc. I think this is most likely the problem.

Since you aren't built pretty good already you should have been able to put on strength and muscle lifting naturally, if your natural test wasn't low, for 12 weeks if your diet and training were good. Something is amiss.
But still, he said no strength gains. Even if he was doing some piss poor training routine, he would still have gotten stronger.[/lang]
 

jeroendebleser

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[lang=nl]
4500 calories I'd gain without AAS..
Test wouldnt put on the weight but 4500 you shouldn't be able to keep the weight off.. maybe your calculations are off? I'd still add another compound

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Agreed on the 2nd compound. Many people online swear by their 'test-only'-cycles but I feel they are seriously suboptimal.

I'd recommend adding either Deca or Dbol or both instead of taking your test dosage too high. (but still make it higher than the 500/week) No need for Adrol, EQ, Tren, ... just yet.

Oh and should you try upping the dose, let me know how that worked out for you relatively speaking. (obviously upping the dose is going to do more but you know what I mean here)[/lang]
 

smok44

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Thanks for your input jeroendebleser!
I hope what you're describing is indeed my case
as well and that eventually I will find
a drug combination and dosage that works for me :)
 

RamboStallone

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I have great results on 500mg test and I've scored levels from 1400-2200 at that dose. Test cycles are definitely effective. I think you need to look elsewhere at your program cuz the hormone side seems covered just fine in my opinion.
 

Freedom15Muscle

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How is your sleep and energy levels? Your hormones look fine and 500mg test is still plenty. You could add in rest days between sessions and do less auxiliary lifts, or maybe stick to compound movements. I would taper it back and add auxiliary lifts back in slowly with drop sets ect.

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iceman74

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Is it possible that you've burnt yourself out? When was the last time you took a week or so of zero weight training?
 

maldorf

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I have great results on 500mg test and I've scored levels from 1400-2200 at that dose. Test cycles are definitely effective. I think you need to look elsewhere at your program cuz the hormone side seems covered just fine in my opinion.
Heck, taking just 100 mg/wk test cyp through my doctors script puts my test at about 850 or so. If it is linear dose response then my level on 500 mg test would be about 4000 or so. Its probably not linear though.
 

RamboStallone

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Heck, taking just 100 mg/wk test cyp through my doctors script puts my test at about 850 or so. If it is linear dose response then my level on 500 mg test would be about 4000 or so. Its probably not linear though.
Not linear from what I understand brother.
 

smok44

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Yeah concerning my energy levels this was also
surprising. I felt quite lethargic during this cycle,
often fell very sleepy during the day. I definitely didn't
feel like I could recover faster after a workout.
Libido was OK but there were some weeks previously on my TRT when it was much higher than that.
Now on my 200mg cruise which started 2 weeks ago
I already feel more energetic, although libido seems
lower at the moment.

I also don't think I could be burnt out because
of too much training. There was Easter in the middle
of my cycle and during 2 weeks I trained less and rested
more, just to check if it would change something, but nope.

Even though my testosterone blood levels turned out high, maybe my body just doesn't know how to use the
extra testosterone properly, it just increases the metabolism rate instead of building muscle :)
 

jeroendebleser

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[lang=nl]
I have great results on 500mg test and I've scored levels from 1400-2200 at that dose. Test cycles are definitely effective. I think you need to look elsewhere at your program cuz the hormone side seems covered just fine in my opinion.
No one said they weren't, they're just not (nearly) as effective as lowering the test dosage somewhat and adding in something more anabolic. That's all that was said[/lang]
 

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