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Posted before but here it is again.
(Long esters for better muscle gain)
Yup you read it right, all the broscience thats pushed around steroid forums about test being test and ester only effects the half-life of the drug is bullshit. And dont worry i have my citations to back up these bold but true claims. Ive been getting alot of PMs to get more info on the subject as I been dropping hints around the forums on my new thoughts and findings so i figured its best to make a post so everyone can read this. So were gonna talk about esters. This is something ive been researching about for the last 2 months or so after using different esters of drugs and noticing different effects both positive and negative. The common belief among the huge majorly of us is that “Testosterone is Testosterone”, the ester just effects the half life. Well after much research ive found that this is just not the case. Different esters will greatly influence many different aspects of the drugs actions including
1) Conversion to estrogen
2) Nitrogen retention/anabolic nature
3) Peak plasma levels of the drug
4) How suppressive the drug is
5) And a few other things
How esters work
Im sure most of you understand what an ester is but heres a little bit more indepth explination. Steroids are 4 ring structures with 19 carbon atoms. Heres a picture of what the molecule looks likehttps://img.springerimages.com/Images/SpringerBooks/BSE=0164/BOK=978-3-540-79088-4/CHP=7_10.1007-978-3-540-79088-4_7/MediaObjects/WATER_978-3-540-79088-4_7_Fig1_HTML.jpg
So as we all know test no ester is in and out of the system very quickly, so scientists decided to add a side chain or “ester” to extended the active life of the steroid so injection frequencies could be cut down. So if you look at the picture above you will see how the molecule is numbered. Notice the OH or hydroxyl group at the 17th position? Thats necessary for the steroid to bind to the androgen receptor, so this is where they add the ester. So with this side chain blocking the 17th beta position the steroid is temporally inactive. But as soon as it gets into the blood stream, esterase enzymes come and hydrolyze the ester, or in other words remove the ester which restores the hydroxyl group making the steroid active. And lastly, the longer the ester the less water soluble it is and more fat soluble. Something that is more fat soluble is going to take longer be released from the deposit or “depot” the injection creates.
Long esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain
So now that you know how esters work we can talk about their actions and how “test is not test”
First will talk about how longer esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain then shorter esters. In 1954 a scientist named Reifstein and his team did a study comparing Testosterone Enathate with Testosterone Propionate. The results of these studys were that Test e resulted in total nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day vs prop only 1.02g/day. And obviously they found the duration of anabolic activity was 33 days with test e and 12 days with prop.(1) These were with the same doses 200mgs of each. So overall the longer ester retains more nitrogen (muscle gain) per day then shorts and remains active in the body for much longer. So its doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that if something causes higher levels of nitrogen retention, and hangs around in your body longer its going to be more anabolic. And real life experience tells us the same. Think of a prop kicker, of 150mgs eod, or just a prop cycle. Ive done 6 week kickers while waiting for 500mgs ew of test e to kick in and the results of the prop are not even close to the same as the long esters, despite the same dosage AND 150mgs of prop eod (525mgs ew) actually contains more pure test then 500mgs of test e.
plasma levels and suppression and Estrogen
Scientists did a study on 3 different testosterone esters, short, medium and long esters. And what they found was the short esters caused the greatest peak plasma levels of testosterone, next highest was the medium and lowest peak was the last. But they found that the long esters caused the greatest suppression on the gonadal axis and metabolic functions.(2) They even upped the short ester dose by 2-3 times and were still not able to replicate the suppression and metabolic effects of the long esters. And this greater suppression is also due to the fact that longer esters convert more readily to estrogen, which is what I’m going to get to next.
Im sure alot of you have noticed bloat is greater with long esters. Despite the fact the same people say test is test we dont typically use shorts for bulks and longs for cuts. We use shorts for cuts and contest preps because they dont convert to estrogen to the same degree as longs do, in turn causing less water retention. So going back to the study (2) estradiol levels were much higher with the group using long esters despite identical doses of the drug. So in short, long esters cause a higher rise in estrogen. The study with the 3 different testosterone esters was done over a 28 week period. The shortest esters allowed for the quickest return of natural levels of hormones. Sperm count also remained the highest with the short esters. So concluding that short esters are less suppressive then long esters. Part of the reason why long esters are so much more suppressive is due to the rise in estrogen they cause. Im not gonna explain the negative feedback system of the hpta here in depth but basically the STOP mechanism of the hpta telling it not the produce anymore testosterone is estrogen. it binds in the hypothalamus which tells it not to produce anymore testosterone as the estrogen levels reflect adaquate levels of testosterone.
Estrogen and IGF-1 and GH
So I’m sure many of you know that using testosterone increases GH and igf-1 levels to a degree. But did you know that the increase in these hormones are due on estrogen aromatization? (3)(4) So now going back we know that long esters cause greater increases in estrogen, and estrogen increase GH and igf-1. So using long esters will result in greater muscle gain due to the factors I presented earlier and also the increase in gh and igf-1 levels caused by the greater levels of estrogen long esters cause.
So what about steroids other then Testosterone?
So now ive talked about how esters effect the effects of testosterone, is it the same for all steroids with esters? Well ive found some medical studies done on the different nandrolone esters. These studies had the exact same findings as the testosterone esters. NPP had greater peak plasma levels, suppression was greater with the long estered nandrolone (deca), and the anabolic effect was greater with the long ester (deca). And most of us who have ran both Deca and NPP can say NPP causes less water retention. And the people ive talked to still say Deca is superior for muscle gain. Its been many years since ive used deca so i cant say myself. Ive been using npp the last few cycles but next winter ill be using deca so ill be able to give an accurate comparison.
Summary
Longer esters cause higher levels of estrogen
Longer esters cause more water retention
Longer esters cause more suppression of the HPTA
Longer esters cause higher levels of nitrogen retention (muscle gain)in other words are more anabolic
Shorter esters cause higher peak plasma levels
So I still need to do some more research on how this applies to other esterfied steroids. But from the short amount of reading I did do it seems this applys to steroids that can aromatize, and can convert to DHT. So the only ones that dont apply to this is trenbolone as it doesn’t convert to DHT or estrogen, an masteron as its already a DHT. But further research is needed.
So in short, with diet in check and your goal is to gain the most amount of pure muscle, use long esters for bulking. Although I am intrigued about possibly mixing nandrolone esters next bulk. Yes the deconate will results in more nitrogen retention and muscle, but the npp reaches greater peak plasma levels, so there could be some benefit of using them together, some type of synergy. Much like how guys who like sust swear its the best form of test. And thats my next bulking cycle, sust and deca (possibly with npp also). Gonnna see the benefits of mixing esters.
Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731
Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG
[Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha Jr PM, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM 1997 Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:3414–3420
Keenan BS, Richards GE, Ponder SW, Dallas JS, Nagamani M, Smith ER 1993 Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth: the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76:996–1001
Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection VolumeCharles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway, and David J. HandelsmanJ. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., Apr 1997; 281: 93.
Belkien, L., Schurmeyer, T., Hano, R., Gunnarson, P. O. and Nieschlag, E.: Pharmacokinetics of 19-nortestosterone esters in normal men. J. Steroid Biochem. 5: 623-629, 1985
(Long esters for better muscle gain)
Yup you read it right, all the broscience thats pushed around steroid forums about test being test and ester only effects the half-life of the drug is bullshit. And dont worry i have my citations to back up these bold but true claims. Ive been getting alot of PMs to get more info on the subject as I been dropping hints around the forums on my new thoughts and findings so i figured its best to make a post so everyone can read this. So were gonna talk about esters. This is something ive been researching about for the last 2 months or so after using different esters of drugs and noticing different effects both positive and negative. The common belief among the huge majorly of us is that “Testosterone is Testosterone”, the ester just effects the half life. Well after much research ive found that this is just not the case. Different esters will greatly influence many different aspects of the drugs actions including
1) Conversion to estrogen
2) Nitrogen retention/anabolic nature
3) Peak plasma levels of the drug
4) How suppressive the drug is
5) And a few other things
How esters work
Im sure most of you understand what an ester is but heres a little bit more indepth explination. Steroids are 4 ring structures with 19 carbon atoms. Heres a picture of what the molecule looks likehttps://img.springerimages.com/Images/SpringerBooks/BSE=0164/BOK=978-3-540-79088-4/CHP=7_10.1007-978-3-540-79088-4_7/MediaObjects/WATER_978-3-540-79088-4_7_Fig1_HTML.jpg
So as we all know test no ester is in and out of the system very quickly, so scientists decided to add a side chain or “ester” to extended the active life of the steroid so injection frequencies could be cut down. So if you look at the picture above you will see how the molecule is numbered. Notice the OH or hydroxyl group at the 17th position? Thats necessary for the steroid to bind to the androgen receptor, so this is where they add the ester. So with this side chain blocking the 17th beta position the steroid is temporally inactive. But as soon as it gets into the blood stream, esterase enzymes come and hydrolyze the ester, or in other words remove the ester which restores the hydroxyl group making the steroid active. And lastly, the longer the ester the less water soluble it is and more fat soluble. Something that is more fat soluble is going to take longer be released from the deposit or “depot” the injection creates.
Long esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain
So now that you know how esters work we can talk about their actions and how “test is not test”
First will talk about how longer esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain then shorter esters. In 1954 a scientist named Reifstein and his team did a study comparing Testosterone Enathate with Testosterone Propionate. The results of these studys were that Test e resulted in total nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day vs prop only 1.02g/day. And obviously they found the duration of anabolic activity was 33 days with test e and 12 days with prop.(1) These were with the same doses 200mgs of each. So overall the longer ester retains more nitrogen (muscle gain) per day then shorts and remains active in the body for much longer. So its doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that if something causes higher levels of nitrogen retention, and hangs around in your body longer its going to be more anabolic. And real life experience tells us the same. Think of a prop kicker, of 150mgs eod, or just a prop cycle. Ive done 6 week kickers while waiting for 500mgs ew of test e to kick in and the results of the prop are not even close to the same as the long esters, despite the same dosage AND 150mgs of prop eod (525mgs ew) actually contains more pure test then 500mgs of test e.
plasma levels and suppression and Estrogen
Scientists did a study on 3 different testosterone esters, short, medium and long esters. And what they found was the short esters caused the greatest peak plasma levels of testosterone, next highest was the medium and lowest peak was the last. But they found that the long esters caused the greatest suppression on the gonadal axis and metabolic functions.(2) They even upped the short ester dose by 2-3 times and were still not able to replicate the suppression and metabolic effects of the long esters. And this greater suppression is also due to the fact that longer esters convert more readily to estrogen, which is what I’m going to get to next.
Im sure alot of you have noticed bloat is greater with long esters. Despite the fact the same people say test is test we dont typically use shorts for bulks and longs for cuts. We use shorts for cuts and contest preps because they dont convert to estrogen to the same degree as longs do, in turn causing less water retention. So going back to the study (2) estradiol levels were much higher with the group using long esters despite identical doses of the drug. So in short, long esters cause a higher rise in estrogen. The study with the 3 different testosterone esters was done over a 28 week period. The shortest esters allowed for the quickest return of natural levels of hormones. Sperm count also remained the highest with the short esters. So concluding that short esters are less suppressive then long esters. Part of the reason why long esters are so much more suppressive is due to the rise in estrogen they cause. Im not gonna explain the negative feedback system of the hpta here in depth but basically the STOP mechanism of the hpta telling it not the produce anymore testosterone is estrogen. it binds in the hypothalamus which tells it not to produce anymore testosterone as the estrogen levels reflect adaquate levels of testosterone.
Estrogen and IGF-1 and GH
So I’m sure many of you know that using testosterone increases GH and igf-1 levels to a degree. But did you know that the increase in these hormones are due on estrogen aromatization? (3)(4) So now going back we know that long esters cause greater increases in estrogen, and estrogen increase GH and igf-1. So using long esters will result in greater muscle gain due to the factors I presented earlier and also the increase in gh and igf-1 levels caused by the greater levels of estrogen long esters cause.
So what about steroids other then Testosterone?
So now ive talked about how esters effect the effects of testosterone, is it the same for all steroids with esters? Well ive found some medical studies done on the different nandrolone esters. These studies had the exact same findings as the testosterone esters. NPP had greater peak plasma levels, suppression was greater with the long estered nandrolone (deca), and the anabolic effect was greater with the long ester (deca). And most of us who have ran both Deca and NPP can say NPP causes less water retention. And the people ive talked to still say Deca is superior for muscle gain. Its been many years since ive used deca so i cant say myself. Ive been using npp the last few cycles but next winter ill be using deca so ill be able to give an accurate comparison.
Summary
Longer esters cause higher levels of estrogen
Longer esters cause more water retention
Longer esters cause more suppression of the HPTA
Longer esters cause higher levels of nitrogen retention (muscle gain)in other words are more anabolic
Shorter esters cause higher peak plasma levels
So I still need to do some more research on how this applies to other esterfied steroids. But from the short amount of reading I did do it seems this applys to steroids that can aromatize, and can convert to DHT. So the only ones that dont apply to this is trenbolone as it doesn’t convert to DHT or estrogen, an masteron as its already a DHT. But further research is needed.
So in short, with diet in check and your goal is to gain the most amount of pure muscle, use long esters for bulking. Although I am intrigued about possibly mixing nandrolone esters next bulk. Yes the deconate will results in more nitrogen retention and muscle, but the npp reaches greater peak plasma levels, so there could be some benefit of using them together, some type of synergy. Much like how guys who like sust swear its the best form of test. And thats my next bulking cycle, sust and deca (possibly with npp also). Gonnna see the benefits of mixing esters.
Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731
Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG
[Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha Jr PM, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM 1997 Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:3414–3420
Keenan BS, Richards GE, Ponder SW, Dallas JS, Nagamani M, Smith ER 1993 Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth: the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76:996–1001
Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection VolumeCharles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway, and David J. HandelsmanJ. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., Apr 1997; 281: 93.
Belkien, L., Schurmeyer, T., Hano, R., Gunnarson, P. O. and Nieschlag, E.: Pharmacokinetics of 19-nortestosterone esters in normal men. J. Steroid Biochem. 5: 623-629, 1985
