Test to Estrogen Ratio

[MaineGuy]

Hey guys. I was in somewhat of a discussion on another board about Test to Estrogen ratio. This person is on about 1100mgs/week of Test, and was wanting to lower his estrogen, it was at 60-65. I was trying to have a discussion with him that he is not out of range for a cycle, and lowering it may not be the best thing to do. I quoted something Kaladryn had written, and he called him a moron. Below is what Kaladryn wrote, what do you guys think about Test to estrogen ratio?

"xcellent info, but remember there is competition between Estrogen and Testosterone.

The "normal" range of E2 needs to be adjusted for the amount of test you are on. For example, if you somehow took enough of an AI to hit 50 estradiol on 1g of test, you would get all sorts of low estrogen side effects (this would require 50mg+ aromasin, no one takes that much anyway). Now if you take 20-25mg of aromasin on 1g of test, you will hit about 100 estradiol, however you will not have any symptoms of estrogentic side effects, even if you are sensitive to them.

Competition between testosterone and estrogen (estradiol) is well known to endocrinologists, and some organic chemists, however it is a vague area. A great example of this effect is in postmenopausal women, when their ovaries stop producing estrogens, they get androgenic side effects from the testosterone produced by their adrenal gland, even though this is the same amount that was produced before menopause.

This competition is thought to be due to co-binding factors at the AR and ER, however again, this is a vague area. I have extensively questioned a rather famous endocrinologist I once met on this issue, Patrick Arnold, and a very smart organic chemist I know, all with very little information forthcoming."

 

[Comegetsome]

OK, so I found this online. Seems to be what in was taught along time ago. Always have an effect e2 drug on hand just in case. However only use it if needed. Read the following for more in depth info.
Estrogen and GH/IGF-1
>To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via GH stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that GH secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of GH in women under normal physiological situations.

It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of GH and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels. Yet another study shows that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for GH and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen
Estrogen may play an even more vital role in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. G6PD is an important enzyme in the support anabolism, as it is directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle growth and recuperation. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically. G6PD enzyme plays a vital role in what is known as the pentose phosphate pathway, and as such this rise is believed to enhance the PPP related process in which nucleic acids and lipids are synthesized in cells; fostering the repair of muscle tissue.

A 1980 study at the University of Maryland has shown that levels of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase rise after administration of testosterone propionate, and further that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is directly responsible for this increase.[x] In this study neither dihydrotestosterone nor fluoxymesterone could mimic the affect of testosterone propionate on levels of G6PD, an affect that was also blocked by the addition of the potent anti-aromatase 4-hydroxyandrostenedione to testosterone. 17-beta estradiol administration caused a similar increase in G6PD, which was not noticed when its inactive estrogen isomer 17-alpha estradiol (unable to bind the estrogen receptor) was given. An anti-androgen could also not block the positive action of testosterone. This study provides one of the first palatable explanations for a direct and positive effect of estrogen on muscle tissue.

What does this all mean?

It is a long held belief among athletes that estrogen maintenance drugs can slightly hinder muscle gains during steroid therapy with a strong aromatizable steroid such as testosterone. Whether or not we have plausibly explained this remains to be seen, however the above evidence certainly does provide strong support for a direct and positive affect of estrogen on growth. Does this mean we should abandon estrogen maintenance drugs? I don’t think that should be the case. It is important to remember that estrogen can deliver many unwanted effects such as increased water retention, fat deposition and the development of female breast tissue when it becomes too active in the male body. Clearly if we plan a high-dose cycle with an aromatizable steroid, anti-estrogens will be an important inclusion. However we cannot ignore the suggestion of using estrogen maintenance drugs only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects during mild to moderately dosed cycles, especially if bulk is the ultimate goal of the athlete.


by William Llewellyn


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[MaineGuy]

I don't disagree with the above at all. I am just curious if most bodybuilders think they have to keep their Estrogen in normal ranges while on cycle. I believe in controlling it, just not absolutely in normal range while on cycle.

 

[Goody]

No
I have tried and felt like shit doing so
I agree with u

 

[Comegetsome]

I guess it all depends on the individual. My normal e2 is about 45-50. I have been as high as 110 with no sides. also I have seen gyno start at 70.( not on myself) people react differently. I would say to keep one ai and one serm on hand. If it gets to where you need something because sides are there. Then take it. Imo

 

[Ranchhand]

Good read, a while back I read an article stating as well that estrogen plays an important part in muscle growth and that we shouldn't try and to suppress estrogen so much while on cycle to maximize gains. I guess it's a balancing act and being acutely aware of the onset of sides when it comes to keeping estrogen in check while on cycle.

I've been lucky and have never experienced any serious sides from cycles and all my cycles have some level of Test in them. I've done some cycles where no ancillary was used but the majority of the time I use an ancillary with cycle. I've only noticed mild differences, mainly water retention vs. less. Like I said, never any bad sides but I do take a lower dose of an ancillary so I don't have to deal with any issues.