The Best Training splits

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante/Tenny....At what point in the size chart do you begin putting more emphasis on trying to bring up weaker parts then overall mass? I want to put on another 20-25ish lbs at this bf% over the next few years, but know my arms are bit weaker then chest/ back... would i switch to that weaker arm split that was mentioned, or continue focusing still on the overall then when i get abit closer to where i want to be, start trying to bring up the laggers?? Or do you bring up the laggers and then try to grow symmetrically not letting your better parts advance faster?

normal split is:
Legs
chest tri delt
back bi forearm
off
repeat

Your pretty damn symmetrical J....and lately you really look like you are making great gains....I look at the pics you put on facebook and think "it aint broke, dont fix it"....looks like time is the only asset you need because i think you are on your way from what ive seen you post lately.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante, your doubling up in a much reduced fashion on the second workouts, but the point being your hitting the weak muscles twice a week to accelerate growth to catch up weak muscles. Is there a way to do this with all muscle's to just accelerate growth across the board?
Another thing I was wondering. I have read a multitude of studies saying recovery periods of 24 to 36 ours are about the norm. Being 56 do you think going a full weak between hitting body parts will work out positively for me?

What do you think of me incorporating a Alfresco spin on this and training as you say but doing a :
Mon-upper body
Tue- lower body
Wed- off
Thur-upper body
Fri- Lower ??????

Or is this pure over load because of the rest pauses creating so much more CN and muscle damage?

CG

No i totally agree with Alfresco's split...in fact landmonster and other guys on here could probably vouch that...that very split is the foundation of the way I have always done things....the split i put on this thread is what i like to do with advanced guys.

the two way split I have recommended for every beg-int bodybuilder since the 90's who needed overall size pronto was

chest shoulders triceps back width back thickness mon
calves hams quads biceps forearms tues
wed off
chest shoulders triceps back width back thickness thurs
calves hams quads biceps forearms fri

the three way split for more int bbers was

chest should tri
back width back thickness biceps forearms
calves hams quads
done on a 2/1 schedule

3 key exercises were rotated all the time and switched out when they got to a strength threshold for new key exercises...

on the 3 way split there would always be some kind of "widowmaker" exercise done for weak bodyparts at the very end of training them.....it would involve heavy weights and higher reps....something you can really grind out for 20 reps....I used to tell people this "tell me what your leg press weight is for 10 deep reps....and they would tell me 'such and such pounds for 10 reps'...and my answer would be "ok grind it out for 20 reps, I dont care what you have to do....take a breath every 2 reps, cry, scream, pretend if you dont make it your life ends....i dont care....but grind it out for 20 reps and tell me when you do"....and they would...they would get to 8 reps and then breath for 4 seconds and do 3 reps and then breath for 4 seconds and get 2 reps and just keep grinding all the way up to 20......and they would tell me....and I would say "ok see how you did that?"....thats what you do on your widomaker sets to bring up weak bodyparts on the 3 way split...find a grind it out exercise and get 20 reps with it and grind it out week after week adding 2.5lb plates if you have to but you need to grind it out progressively over time until the reps start coming down to an unacceptable rep range and you cannot eke anything out of that exercise anymore. Exercises like dip machines, and fixed bar pulldown machines, etc etc etc...are examples of "grind it out" widowmaker exercises....

so im a big believer in frequency...in fact I was the guy arguing against everyone else back 20 years ago on the net against everyone who was set on once a week bodypart training....that training bodyparts 76-104 times a year and recovering is a much much much faster way to point B from point A than training bodyparts 52 times a year.

its just in this thread Im talking about guys who are walking around at about 3.5 lbs and upward per inch of height in reasonable offseason shape. There are alot of big boys in this message board......and alot of them have outstanding bodyparts that dont need extra attention and once a week training will keep them progressing with those outstanding bodyparts.....yet they need to focus on their subpar bodyparts...so thats kind of who im talking about in this split.

IMO there "usually" are two kinds of weak bodypart bodybuilders...torso bodybuilders and limb bodybuilders. Torso bodybuilders usually have great backs and/or legs...they are usually wide across the shoulders and their achilles heel is usually always their arms. (Yates and Haney come to mind) Limb bodybuilders usually have round shoulders and freaking awesome arms (almost universally) but some dont have good shoulder width or if they do have shoulder width their torso's are usually their achilles heel (mattarrazzo or Centopauni comes to mind)

I totally lost the point i was going to make....LOL man i got to eat something

 

[warlock]

On the split described I would come in on saturday and do a short workout but it would probably be something really weird like 50 rep leg presses with heavy weight (after warmups) where you get to 30-35 and you are spent and the last 15 are either you make it or die....and some kind of lunge/step up movement for hams.....maybe even these

Thanks so much Dante. I appreciate your post.

 

[20sam91]

Dante I was under the impression the 2-way was ABA week 1, BAB week 2? Did you have some guys do 4 sessions per week?

 

[tokon]

Some very interesting information here, thanks guys.

 

[alfresco]

What do you think of me incorporating a Alfresco spin on this and training as you say but doing a :
Mon-upper body
Tue- lower body
Wed- off
Thur-upper body
Fri- Lower ??????
CG

CG,

Yes, that is another spin on things.

FYI . . . Mike Mentzer said he used a two workouts followed by a day off then
two more workouts followed by a day off (or two, think weekend). By his own
admission he was at his best doing so, so there ya go. It is very popular split.

I have forgotten how he split things up but he did say he built the most
muscle ever by doing so. My opinion . . . where he eventually ‘landed’
(I had talked with him several times on the phone) was utter nonsense,
pure marketing and pseudo-scientific BS, a total bastardization of what
Arthur Jones (who I knew very well), his idol, was espousing.

I have tried what I quoted (you) above, and made very good progress but I
was mainly rebuilding previously existing muscle . . . it worked for a while.
I still feel a day off between training sessions is the way to go for me. I
quickly tire, can’t stand being in the gym that often, personally have not seen
long term benefits, i.e., building ‘new’ muscle, again, without a day off in
between training sessions. Perhaps that explains why I look the way I look

Good thread.

Dante,

Somebody should build a machine (don’t know if it would work better but
might be easier to get in and out of ) like the exercise you have Dusty
doing for his hams. Very interesting. That is certainly getting ‘weird’ in a
good way.

 

[Kag94]

Dante I was under the impression the 2-way was ABA week 1, BAB week 2? Did you have some guys do 4 sessions per week?

This was back in the gap

 

[Kag94]

CG,

Yes, that is another spin on things.

FYI . . . Mike Mentzer said he used a two workouts followed by a day off then
two more workouts followed by a day off (or two, think weekend). By his own
admission he was at his best doing so, so there ya go. It is very popular split.

I have forgotten how he split things up but he did say he built the most
muscle ever by doing so. My opinion . . . where he eventually ‘landed’
(I had talked with him several times on the phone) was utter nonsense,
pure marketing and pseudo-scientific BS, a total bastardization of what
Arthur Jones (who I knew very well), his idol, was espousing.

I have tried what I quoted (you) above, and made very good progress but I
was mainly rebuilding previously existing muscle . . . it worked for a while.
I still feel a day off between training sessions is the way to go for me. I
quickly tire, can’t stand being in the gym that often, personally have not seen
long term benefits, i.e., building ‘new’ muscle, again, without a day off in
between training sessions. Perhaps that explains why I look the way I look

Good thread.

Dante,

Somebody should build a machine (don’t know if it would work better but
might be easier to get in and out of ) like the exercise you have Dusty
doing for his hams. Very interesting. That is certainly getting ‘weird’ in a
good way.

Bret Contreras made a platform

 

[PitbullTank]

i wish we brought back more of this training talk between the advanced guys then always talking drugs... so much more fun :headbang:

 

[psupower]

I want to say that I read his two way EOD split was lower, chest, tri's day 1, rest, day 2 was back, delts, biceps. I believe it was in superset fashion

CG,

Yes, that is another spin on things.

FYI . . . Mike Mentzer said he used a two workouts followed by a day off then
two more workouts followed by a day off (or two, think weekend). By his own
admission he was at his best doing so, so there ya go. It is very popular split.

I have forgotten how he split things up but he did say he built the most
muscle ever by doing so. My opinion . . . where he eventually ‘landed’
(I had talked with him several times on the phone) was utter nonsense,
pure marketing and pseudo-scientific BS, a total bastardization of what
Arthur Jones (who I knew very well), his idol, was espousing.

I have tried what I quoted (you) above, and made very good progress but I
was mainly rebuilding previously existing muscle . . . it worked for a while.
I still feel a day off between training sessions is the way to go for me. I
quickly tire, can’t stand being in the gym that often, personally have not seen
long term benefits, i.e., building ‘new’ muscle, again, without a day off in
between training sessions. Perhaps that explains why I look the way I look

Good thread.

Dante,

Somebody should build a machine (don’t know if it would work better but
might be easier to get in and out of ) like the exercise you have Dusty
doing for his hams. Very interesting. That is certainly getting ‘weird’ in a
good way.

 

[heavyhitter]

No i totally agree with Alfresco's split...in fact landmonster and other guys on here could probably vouch that...that very split is the foundation of the way I have always done things....the split i put on this thread is what i like to do with advanced guys.

the two way split I have recommended for every beg-int bodybuilder since the 90's who needed overall size pronto was

chest shoulders triceps back width back thickness mon
calves hams quads biceps forearms tues
wed off
chest shoulders triceps back width back thickness thurs
calves hams quads biceps forearms fri

the three way split for more int bbers was

chest should tri
back width back thickness biceps forearms
calves hams quads
done on a 2/1 schedule

3 key exercises were rotated all the time and switched out when they got to a strength threshold for new key exercises...

on the 3 way split there would always be some kind of "widowmaker" exercise done for weak bodyparts at the very end of training them.....it would involve heavy weights and higher reps....something you can really grind out for 20 reps....I used to tell people this "tell me what your leg press weight is for 10 deep reps....and they would tell me 'such and such pounds for 10 reps'...and my answer would be "ok grind it out for 20 reps, I dont care what you have to do....take a breath every 2 reps, cry, scream, pretend if you dont make it your life ends....i dont care....but grind it out for 20 reps and tell me when you do"....and they would...they would get to 8 reps and then breath for 4 seconds and do 3 reps and then breath for 4 seconds and get 2 reps and just keep grinding all the way up to 20......and they would tell me....and I would say "ok see how you did that?"....thats what you do on your widomaker sets to bring up weak bodyparts on the 3 way split...find a grind it out exercise and get 20 reps with it and grind it out week after week adding 2.5lb plates if you have to but you need to grind it out progressively over time until the reps start coming down to an unacceptable rep range and you cannot eke anything out of that exercise anymore. Exercises like dip machines, and fixed bar pulldown machines, etc etc etc...are examples of "grind it out" widowmaker exercises....

so im a big believer in frequency...in fact I was the guy arguing against everyone else back 20 years ago on the net against everyone who was set on once a week bodypart training....that training bodyparts 76-104 times a year and recovering is a much much much faster way to point B from point A than training bodyparts 52 times a year.

its just in this thread Im talking about guys who are walking around at about 3.5 lbs and upward per inch of height in reasonable offseason shape. There are alot of big boys in this message board......and alot of them have outstanding bodyparts that dont need extra attention and once a week training will keep them progressing with those outstanding bodyparts.....yet they need to focus on their subpar bodyparts...so thats kind of who im talking about in this split.

IMO there "usually" are two kinds of weak bodypart bodybuilders...torso bodybuilders and limb bodybuilders. Torso bodybuilders usually have great backs and/or legs...they are usually wide across the shoulders and their achilles heel is usually always their arms. (Yates and Haney come to mind) Limb bodybuilders usually have round shoulders and freaking awesome arms (almost universally) but some dont have good shoulder width or if they do have shoulder width their torso's are usually their achilles heel (mattarrazzo or Centopauni comes to mind)

I totally lost the point i was going to make....LOL man i got to eat something

I'm seriously considering going back to a split like this. Dante.....how do you feel about doing the three way split....i.e chest/shoulders/tris,back bis forearms, legs and doing it on a Monday,Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday schedule? Two days off a week. Would this be too much? It's been a long time since I did DC training or any high frequency lower volume split really.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Dante I was under the impression the 2-way was ABA week 1, BAB week 2? Did you have some guys do 4 sessions per week?

You could do it that way also.....I had a very hard time getting people to do that though because they felt they were out of the gym too much....debrainwashing people from believing that "22 sets today for this bodypart once a week" is better than "lower set progressive training bodyparts hit multiple times per week" was the absolute hardest thing to do when I was training people. It used to frustrate me to no end.

It got so frustrating at times i used to cut guys left and right near the end of "my training people". I remember an IFBB pro who begged me to train him and i gave in (i was burnt out)....he will remain unnamed .....he kept changing what i wanted him to do....and adding sets and days etc....I warned him once "this is my way or no way, this is my reputation and I keep my reputation by doing with you.... what you have seen me do with everyone else....if you dont follow the plan...its not going to work and Im not going to be blamed for it not working." He had already been gaining like a rocket ship so i couldnt understand it.

{i used to make these guys send their workouts over from time to time to make sure they stayed on the gameplan}

3-4 weeks goes by and I said "send me over what you did the last 3 days in your logbook i want to see what you are doing"....there it was "I added this and this and I feel this is important (it was a foo foo exercise that did nothing absolutely nothing for muscle mass...it might have been dumbell kickbacks)"..... I lost it and my email back was...

"your done...I warned you and Im cutting you loose...you hired me because YOUR WAY WASNT WORKING! you just told me you have never been this big before and here you are now going back to your ways that you said WERENT WORKING! I'm out!"

The guy begged me to take him back (alot of emails apoligizing)...I didnt.

Thats what burnt me out training people and why i can never do it again. Bodybuilders are obsessive compulsive and they have this MUST principle in them that they must do this today, and this and this and this...or it wont work. And throwing a gameplan at them that makes complete sense goes directly against this obsessive compulsiveness they have. If it was scientifically proven without a shadow of a doubt that doing only
incline press on monday
decline press on wenesday
flat press on friday
was the hypothetically fastest way for chest gains (im not saying it is im just using that hypothetically)

95% of obsessive compulsive bodybuilders would not listen to that and would tell their training partner "wellllllll, lets throw in cable crossovers and sideways sitting hammer presses and upper inner chest shrugs (couldnt resist) and this and that and that over there".... frustrating

 

[xpoc]

I had a very hard time getting people to do that though because they felt they were out of the gym too much....

I am guilty of this. I actually LIKE going to the gym 5-6 times per week, albeit for a shorter duration (like in and out in one hour). I love high frequency, low volume. Dante thanks for your contributions, I love reading your posts.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I'm seriously considering going back to a split like this. Dante.....how do you feel about doing the three way split....i.e chest/shoulders/tris,back bis forearms, legs and doing it on a Monday,Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday schedule? Two days off a week. Would this be too much? It's been a long time since I did DC training or any high frequency lower volume split really.

You have been training a long time heavyhitter...if you think you can recover doing that its worth a try...just be wary, rest pauses rip the soul out of people when they are really at the top end of intensity/weight threshholds...thats why ive always put a limit on them,,,people start out thinking "oh man i can rest pause everything" when its 100x21rp...but after months when they have gotten blood from a stone and they are doing 265x21rp on the same movement....it really taxes the bodies recovery rate

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I wrote these 2 posts on Geardup on Facebook.... its always been my mission statement pretty much.

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The two times a lifter gains the most muscular size is (the first 2-3 years of lifting when he also gains unbelievable strength and dumbells go from 40 to 50, 60 , 70 , 80, etc)....then he usually is a hamster in a spinning ball for a few years while he tries out everything under the sun to minimal gains...and then he tries steroids and what happens again...his strength goes thru the roof..275lb squats for reps becomes 315, 350, 375, 405, 455 etc etc etc .....and what happens? he gains unbelievable muscle mass.

Yet 99% of bodybuilders forget this insane increase of strenght/adaption taking place...and run around like a chicken with their head cut off thinking "well if I do 12 more sets something magical is going to happen!"...the day you get to your ultimate strength limit for lets say 15 reps on key mechanical exercises that work for your unique body...is the day you will have the most muscle mass on your physique according to your unique genetic attributes.<----nobody on this earth has gotten there yet...but the guys who have gone to the well and back and gotten close....are so massive its scary.

All pro bodybuilders seem to forget what made them in the beginning...in the formulative years and end up telling everyone what they are currently doing NOW (which is comfortable) is what got them there. Meanwhile on a generally even playing field (pro genetics)....the most massive bodybuilders among their cohorts Yates, Coleman, Francois, even today...Akiim Williams who is among the heaviest training for reps pros....create a separation with the people around them who are using the same drugs and have roughly the same genetics and EVEN the same trainer...ala Coleman vs Wheeler

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and then i cut and pasted this from here on pro muscle that i wrote:

Everyone forgets how they got big in the first place it drives me nuts.

What are the two times you put on the most muscle mass in your bodybuilding career?

Your first 2-3 years of lifting is the first time....and what did you do during that time?

YOUR training WEIGHTS SOARED....you started incredibly weak and over the first 2-3 years of lifting your training weights doubled/tripled/quadrupled in alot of cases and you got the prototypical "newbie gains"...you gained size rapidly because of the rapid strength increases that happened during this time that you will never equal again.

What was the next time you put on the most muscle mass in your bodybuilding career.....whoa you used steroids

You used steroids and what happened? your training weights soared again.....70lb dumbell presses turned into 110lb dumbell presses and then 130lb dumbell presses....everything you used to use felt light and your weights again dramatically rose up. 250lb squats...screw that...wow 365-405 etc became commonplace

Both scenarios your weights increased dramatically in a relatively short time frame YET everyone in bodybuilding doesnt get it.....and for some weird reason starts thinking "well if i squeeze at the very bottom of this one handed reverse tricep pushdown....."


And then later on heavy drug users and pro bodybuilders COMPLETELY FORGET how they put their size on in the first place...completely....Jay Cutler grew up near me...the guy was moving WEIGHT when he was young and he was moving so much weight he became a house overnight....and he was teen heavyweight champ, and then competing in his early 20's at 256lbs onstage! Ridiculous...a ridiculous onstage bodyweight for someone in his early 20's......and then 5 years later he was roughly the same bodyweight, and 10 years later he was roughly the same bodyweight onstage and 15 years later he was roughly the same bodyweight onstage......he improved yes but no dramatic gains in size ...he just honed in all the size he created in his early 20's pretty much....except his back..he tried to train his back to catch Coleman..started using heavy heavy weights on rows and deadlifts and improved his back greatly (how did that get forgotten)

I read this article and he completely forgets what put on all the muscle mass IFBB Pro Jay Cutler's Best Lifts for All Bodyparts


That same lifting made him 256lbs onstage at 23 or so.....and the 15 years of "much safer training" he did thereafter added a little bit of muscle mass but compared to his first 5 years of training where he gained 100lbs of so of pure muscle? I agree noone wants to get hurt and I feel you dont need to train like that with heavy singles and doubles but please dont try to convince anyone that it didnt make you into a monster

I just have a problem when people forget all about what made them in the first place and try to persuade people of how they train NOW....well how you train NOW isnt how you did it is it? I know its comfortable and i know its safe and i know you want to think your gaining 2lbs of muscle mass per workout....but the things you did when you first started training and first started juicing (in both cases weights flying upward) is truly what did it.

Do i think people need to do singles twos and three's....hell no....like Lats said above....12-20 reps will get it done...it just has to be progressive

 

[heavyhitter]

You have been training a long time heavyhitter...if you think you can recover doing that its worth a try...just be wary, rest pauses rip the soul out of people when they are really at the top end of intensity/weight threshholds...thats why ive always put a limit on them,,,people start out thinking "oh man i can rest pause everything" when its 100x21rp...but after months when they have gotten blood from a stone and they are doing 265x21rp on the same movement....it really taxes the bodies recovery rate

See that's kind of what I was thinkin too. Would you reduce the number or rest pause sets per workout then....or would you go down to 4 days a week of training .

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

See that's kind of what I was thinkin too. Would you reduce the number or rest pause sets per workout then....or would you go down to 4 days a week of training .

Id do the split you want but i would definitely feel my way thru it....if you start feeling like you got run over by a Ford F350 in the morning its time to reaccess and knock down some rest pauses and turn them into straight sets or bring on some rest days

 

[heavyhitter]

Id do the split you want but i would definitely feel my way thru it....if you start feeling like you got run over by a Ford F350 in the morning its time to reaccess and knock down some rest pauses and turn them into straight sets or bring on some rest days

I think i might give this a try....or do you think maybe a guy like me should do that split you posted originally in the third post on this thread? I like the way that's structured too and allows for the additional work for weak body parts. Also....this single exercises for weak body parts...should they always be a rest paused or widowmaker type set? Where would widowmaker a fit into this split? Sorry for all the questions. Been awhile since I could pick your brain and I'm excited at the prospect of maybe changing up my training a bit

 

[20sam91]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply DC. I really think 4 of those sessions a week would fry me, I could do 2rp instead of 3 but don't really want to change what's working. Thanks for taking the time to post.

 

[juggy38]

I did the 3 way 5 days a week for 6 weeks but do straight set for my best muscle.

Example chest...just work up to one tough set
Shoulders: rest pause
Tris:rest pause

Back: bent over rows one hard set
RP pull ups
RP curls

Legs: RP quads
Straight set hams
Calves RP