The Definitive Thyroid Hormone Thread (T3, T4, some implications for rhGH)

[Type-IIx]

It's funny you try and sound so smart with everything and can't even legitimately Google something

Your the dude who likes to use the words "illicit hypertrophy" instead of grow and who we laugh at

View attachment 160414

need4tren thinks "Monocle" was some gay Greek philosopher they discussed in class on a morning his brain was particularly resinated by bong rips.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

So it could likely be RAAS activation (was the doc visit showing 85 bpm more than a week after the bump to 8 IU?)

Anyway, consider tracking RHR in a spreadsheet if you do come off of rhGH completely (I believe cyclical use makes a lot of sense, so in my opinion you should do so [unless using agents that increase IGF-I bioavailability, e.g., slin] due to decreased GH response by 6 mo [due to binding protein dynamics, etc.]). Then treat any dose increase (including resumption after a period of cessation) as a second condition (permitting an increase in RHR that should dissipate in < a week). Then continue monitoring on rhGH (constant dose >= a week) as a third condition.

I'll track that closer. The whole reason I bought the Dario BP cuff is that I already had a Dario blood glucose monitor paired with my tablet and the app works with the BP cuff also so it automatically populates all the hematological and blood pressure data into one timestamp.

 

[need4tren]

He's coming after us normies. LOL

Actually no it was made by another person on pm and sent to me via dm. There's a bunch of people who msged me loling at type llx

 

[Type-IIx]

I'll track that closer. The whole reason I bought the Dario BP cuff is that I already had a Dario blood glucose monitor paired with my tablet and the app works with the BP cuff also so it automatically populates all the hematological and blood pressure data into one timestamp.

An increased RHR has also been found in AAS & rhGH users, and may be dosage related (as it is seen in acromegalics). This could be accounted for, mechanistically, by an inverse correlation of NO levels with GH & IGF-I.

Ronconi, V., Giacchetti, G., Mariniello, B., Camilletti, A., Mantero, F., Boscaro, M., … Mazzanti, L. (2005). Reduced nitric oxide levels in acromegaly: cardiovascular implications. Blood Pressure, 14(4), 227–232. doi:10.1080/08037050510034293

 

[Type-IIx]

Actually no it was made by another person on pm and sent to me via dm. There's a bunch of people who msged me loling at type llx

Oh NOEZ, the cool kids are talking about me behind my back. I'm clearly a unifier, uniting the smart (with terms like "illicit" hypertrophy [though that is one way to describe what we do here]) and the unsmart (by using a delicate and nurturing tone with trolls).

 

[Type-IIx]

Hey, @need4tren did you ever get around to sharing your T3 leaflet's section on avoiding food, vitamins, and hormones for absorption, or did you find that it's in a language you can't read (that includes English)?

 

[mike036]

Oh NOEZ, the cool kids are talking about me behind my back. I'm clearly a unifier, uniting the smart (with terms like "illicit" hypertrophy [though that is one way to describe what we do here]) and the unsmart (by using a delicate and nurturing tone with trolls).

I find your posts valuable @Type-IIx. Keep doing what you do !!!

 

[BLang]

I used 25mcg Tiromel (T3) + 100ncg Eutirox (T4) for about 1,5years.
Bloods for FT3 FT4 always come in perfect line, let's say near the upper values. TSH suppressed obviously.

During that time, for me was almost impossible to gain muscle, and was always looking flat, despite whatever i was taking.... Had to pump in 100iu Lantus to look full....

So i decided to drop the T3 keep the T4 (i am on 10iu HGH on training days 5iu on rest).
The result was that:
-Blood glucose readings improved (not really by a lot but something)
-more strength
-more hunger
-started gaining muscle noticeably
-more fullness, finally i look like on steroids
-sleep quality is the same
-bp same, heartbeat dropped by 7-10 points

All in all, having in me just the T4 seems to work better, will do bloods in a month to see where those values are.

@Type-IIx why do you think that even if my FT3 and FT4 levels were fine, i was so flat and weaker? What did I miss of the whole picture?

Hey @jaxino ,

I'm curious if you ever ended up getting follow-up bloods after making this protocol switch.

Also, I'm curious, in the absence of bloodwork, if you noticed any hypothyroid-type symptoms after your T3 was dropped, or did you have perceive that the conversion of T4 was enough to prevent this?

I'm particularly interested in anyone's experiences that have been on T4+T3 similar to Jaxino and have simply dropped T3 but stayed on T4.

This is something that is not shown in any of the clinical literature I've seen, so any anecdotes and/or bloodwork is greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[jaxino]

Hey @jaxino ,

I'm curious if you ever ended up getting follow-up bloods after making this protocol switch.

Also, I'm curious, in the absence of bloodwork, if you noticed any hypothyroid-type symptoms after your T3 was dropped, or did you have perceive that the conversion of T4 was enough to prevent this?

I'm particularly interested in anyone's experiences that have been on T4+T3 similar to Jaxino and have simply dropped T3 but stayed on T4.

This is something that is not shown in any of the clinical literature I've seen, so any anecdotes and/or bloodwork is greatly appreciated, thanks!

I have to admit that this year i didn't do any useful bloods, had lots of ball curves in my life and i really slacked on that part.

I "bulked" from Nov 2021 to March 2022 on:
1-1,5g Sust ew
1-1,5g EQ ew
300-500 TrenE ew
6-10iu HGH ed
5-10iu Log postwo
100 T4 ed
no AIs just 20mg Nolvadex
500-1000 Metformin XR ed
600-900 carbs on training days
300-450 carbs on off days.
250-300 prots
50 fats

(Doses increased as i added food)

I went from 100kg to 114kg without really gaining fat, it was mainly water, once i cut down and replenish glycogen i was 104kg with tunnel abs and separations (7-8%bf maybe less).
The bulk imho wasn't so great as it seems because i kept training like an asshole 6/7 without deloads and this in the end hindered gains by a lot.

I want to do the bloods anyways soon.

Everytime i did bloods on 25 T3 and 100 T4 bloods were on higher ranges, but i was feeling like dogshit and looking flat as a pancake.

On 100 T4 ed I feel great, energized and full.

 

[Type-IIx]

I used 25mcg Tiromel (T3) + 100ncg Eutirox (T4) for about 1,5years.
Bloods for FT3 FT4 always come in perfect line, let's say near the upper values. TSH suppressed obviously.

During that time, for me was almost impossible to gain muscle, and was always looking flat, despite whatever i was taking.... Had to pump in 100iu Lantus to look full....

So i decided to drop the T3 keep the T4 (i am on 10iu HGH on training days 5iu on rest).
The result was that:
-Blood glucose readings improved (not really by a lot but something)
-more strength
-more hunger
-started gaining muscle noticeably
-more fullness, finally i look like on steroids
-sleep quality is the same
-bp same, heartbeat dropped by 7-10 points

All in all, having in me just the T4 seems to work better, will do bloods in a month to see where those values are.

@Type-IIx why do you think that even if my FT3 and FT4 levels were fine, i was so flat and weaker? What did I miss of the whole picture?

Just seeing this now, sorry for the delayed response. Androgens/AAS exert a class effect of decreasing thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG), resulting in increased resin uptake of T3 & T4. This effectively means that even mere replacement dosing of exogenous thyroid hormone exerts a supra-physiologic effect at the cellular and tissue levels when combined with high dose AAS.

 

[BLang]

On 100 T4 ed I feel great, energized and full.

Thanks for the reply!

"down period" between dropping T3 or feeling good, or did it seem like you immediately felt better?

Just seeing this now, sorry for the delayed response. Androgens/AAS exert a class effect of decreasing thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG), resulting in increased resin uptake of T3 & T4. This effectively means that even mere replacement dosing of exogenous thyroid hormone exerts a supra-physiologic effect at the cellular and tissue levels when combined with high dose AAS.

I don't think this has been elucidated in the literature, but is there any way to speculate on the dose-response curve for this effect?

 

[TheRoid]

I don't think this has been elucidated in the literature, but is there any way to speculate on the dose-response curve for this effect?

I'm not Type-IIx but you may find this interesting (yes, they were already looking into this six decades ago):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0026049565901277

 

[BLang]

I'm not Type-IIx but you may find this interesting (yes, they were already looking into this six decades ago):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0026049565901277

Thanks for that. Interestingly, they concluded that the effect was related to anabolism, not androgenicity.

And, to the main question, it does seem that the THBG decrease peaked out at relatively low doses (70-140mg/week).

 

[JaredLinez]

@need4tren humorously, I Googled it and the result was that "Thyroid hormones are well absorbed orally. From these hormones, liothyronine is almost completely absorbed and it does not present changes in the absorption rate due to concomitant administration of food."

Old thread, big I figured I’d add; I split my t3 dose and take my second 12.5mcg with a large meal. No issues from what I can tell. Meal also contains fortified cereal (high in minerals).