The drug(s) most responsible for killing bodybuilders

[Reno911]

So I got banned for giving shit back to people who gave shit to me, pretty lame, but the fact other behaviors in my past damaged my health doesn’t vitiate the fact that I only had heart issues when I used high doses of GH, and the fact most guys who are dying young from PEDs seem to be guys who are abusing GH at high doses. Obviously other choices compound the matter, and high dose GH by itself, in isolation from other factors, isn’t going to pose the same problem, but it does seem that adding high dose GH to the mix is the thing that often is responsible for PED fatalities in bodybuilders who die young from the PEDs themselves.

Can you name a few of these "young" fellas that were doing high dose GH and died?

How would we be able to verify their "high dose GH" protocols?

 

[qbkilla]

I read a paper years ago about football players, now i believe they dont super abuse GH like bodybuilders do dose wise, now roids, painkills erc sure. They where all insanely hyuge humans and all had organs that was enlarged vs an average human, lungs, heart, liver, spleen etc, i remember the conclusion was something like the bigger the body, the harder it has to work/deliver it superizes organs to help the body performe at that level.

I've seen many times nfl offensive lineman immediately slim down to 220ish lbs from 300 when they retired for health. These guys know carrying excessive weight at 40+ years ago is asking for trouble

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

So I got banned for giving shit back to people who gave shit to me, pretty lame, but the fact other behaviors in my past damaged my health doesn’t vitiate the fact that I only had heart issues when I used high doses of GH, and the fact most guys who are dying young from PEDs seem to be guys who are abusing GH at high doses. Obviously other choices compound the matter, and high dose GH by itself, in isolation from other factors, isn’t going to pose the same problem, but it does seem that adding high dose GH to the mix is the thing that often is responsible for PED fatalities in bodybuilders who die young from the PEDs themselves.

You are not wrong man. I have helped about (i would estimate) 20 guys now with severe LVH or cardiomegaly and virtually in every single case they were using very large dosage of GH with androgens.

Its strange to me that people with Acromeglia virtually always die from an enlarged heart or heart complications but here at PM thats just ignored. There have been cases of people using GH that have been clinically diagnosed with acromeglia. People will see their shoe sizes go up 2 sizes, and enlarged noses etc but for some strange reason think the heart is not going to grow also. https://www.imrpress.com/journal/RCM/24/4/10.31083/j.rcm2404095/htm

Put in androgens with large amounts of GH and its really going to happen https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11398840/

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

So I got banned for giving shit back to people who gave shit to me, pretty lame, but the fact other behaviors in my past damaged my health doesn’t vitiate the fact that I only had heart issues when I used high doses of GH, and the fact most guys who are dying young from PEDs seem to be guys who are abusing GH at high doses. Obviously other choices compound the matter, and high dose GH by itself, in isolation from other factors, isn’t going to pose the same problem, but it does seem that adding high dose GH to the mix is the thing that often is responsible for PED fatalities in bodybuilders who die young from the PEDs themselves.

The good thing is it can be reversed if you can catch it in time. But its fairly rapid...happening in as little as 4 weeks. And that is not an outrageous dosage either.

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/87/4/1654/2374961?redirectedFrom=fulltext

But this is all about IGF-1 and time on large dosages of GH (along with androgens and increased bw/blood pressure)....

If your shoe sizes are going up pretty rapidly....definitely time to put on the brakes

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/clc.22867

 

[NEMSZ]

You are not wrong man. I have helped about (i would estimate) 20 guys now with severe LVH or cardiomegaly and virtually in every single case they were using very large dosage of GH with androgens.

Its strange to me that people with Acromeglia virtually always die from an enlarged heart or heart complications but here at PM thats just ignored. There have been cases of people using GH that have been clinically diagnosed with acromeglia. People will see their shoe sizes go up 2 sizes, and enlarged noses etc but for some strange reason think the heart is not going to grow also. https://www.imrpress.com/journal/RCM/24/4/10.31083/j.rcm2404095/htm

Put in androgens with large amounts of GH and its really going to happen https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11398840/

Curious about your opinion on this a little deeper, if you don’t mind..

I know you’ve spoken in the past about GH use and being able to use it safely and mitigate certain negative effects but don’t know or remember if you’ve ever elaborated on it?

When I spoke to a sports cardiologist about this, he didn’t seem to have any concern with GH use (not abuse), even around doses of 4-6iu per day.. He also said that if you’ve got slightly elevated IGF levels, maybe top range of normal or slightly above (350-400ish) then you probably won’t run into many issues (all bases for health being covered of course), but it’s when people get crazy with the dosages, walking around with IGF levels of 800+ constantly, extremely high blood pressure all the time, excessive food and bodyweight, where they start to see issues..

Curious about your opinion on what you’ve seen/experienced with people you’ve helped, or in general, hands on?

Would you say there’s definitely a safe range to use GH with minimal chances of these effects? Please feel free to add any preventative measures you believe are crucial when doing so (ie; you’ve said in the past, every bodybuilder on AAS should be taking things like Curcumin, Natto, lipid supps etc, so apply that here) and the dosage ranges you feel are less worrisome from what you’ve seen?

Also I noticed you specified Androgens vs Anabolics..

Obviously high doses and abuse of any PEDs aren’t going to buy you any longevity, but I had this conversation with @bbxtreme and we’ve both gone to Sports Cardiologists, and the consensus seems to be (again, AAS “abuse” aside) that if you want to be as heart healthy as possible while still using PEDs for specific goals, you’d want to run lower Androgenic compounds and use something like a lower base of Testosterone but fill up the MG with something like Primo, Anavar, Boldenone etc which are less Androgenic (not that they don’t carry their own risks when abused as well, but talking about intelligent use here), which therefore technically don’t bind to Androgen receptors in the heart which would cause more issues with higher androgenic AAS…

Thoughts on this as well??

 

[Alpha246]

Var absolutely tanks my lipids, but they recover in a few weeks.

 

[specter]

You are not wrong man. I have helped about (i would estimate) 20 guys now with severe LVH or cardiomegaly and virtually in every single case they were using very large dosage of GH with androgens.

Its strange to me that people with Acromeglia virtually always die from an enlarged heart or heart complications but here at PM thats just ignored. There have been cases of people using GH that have been clinically diagnosed with acromeglia. People will see their shoe sizes go up 2 sizes, and enlarged noses etc but for some strange reason think the heart is not going to grow also. https://www.imrpress.com/journal/RCM/24/4/10.31083/j.rcm2404095/htm

Put in androgens with large amounts of GH and its really going to happen https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11398840/

i do believe there even was a study done where they looked at roids alone vs roids and GH for heart size and roids plus GH was way worse.

 

[Reno911]

Curious about your opinion on this a little deeper, if you don’t mind..

I know you’ve spoken in the past about GH use and being able to use it safely and mitigate certain negative effects but don’t know or remember if you’ve ever elaborated on it?

When I spoke to a sports cardiologist about this, he didn’t seem to have any concern with GH use (not abuse), even around doses of 4-6iu per day.. He also said that if you’ve got slightly elevated IGF levels, maybe top range of normal or slightly above (350-400ish) then you probably won’t run into many issues (all bases for health being covered of course), but it’s when people get crazy with the dosages, walking around with IGF levels of 800+ constantly, extremely high blood pressure all the time, excessive food and bodyweight, where they start to see issues..

Curious about your opinion on what you’ve seen/experienced with people you’ve helped, or in general, hands on?

Would you say there’s definitely a safe range to use GH with minimal chances of these effects? Please feel free to add any preventative measures you believe are crucial when doing so (ie; you’ve said in the past, every bodybuilder on AAS should be taking things like Curcumin, Natto, lipid supps etc, so apply that here) and the dosage ranges you feel are less worrisome from what you’ve seen?

Also I noticed you specified Androgens vs Anabolics..

Obviously high doses and abuse of any PEDs aren’t going to buy you any longevity, but I had this conversation with @bbxtreme and we’ve both gone to Sports Cardiologists, and the consensus seems to be (again, AAS “abuse” aside) that if you want to be as heart healthy as possible while still using PEDs for specific goals, you’d want to run lower Androgenic compounds and use something like a lower base of Testosterone but fill up the MG with something like Primo, Anavar, Boldenone etc which are less Androgenic (not that they don’t carry their own risks when abused as well, but talking about intelligent use here), which therefore technically don’t bind to Androgen receptors in the heart which would cause more issues with higher androgenic AAS…

Thoughts on this as well??

In reference to the bold above.

NEMSZ- not to hijack your question for Doggcrapp but with the above in bold what can be done to create aromatase for someone who can get crushed Estradiol from Primo or EQ? (I don't use orals so Anavar isn't an option). If I were to run lower Test with Primo or EQ, it would tank my estrogen.

What would be an option? Toss in some DHEA or add in NPP or Deca to help create aromatase? I'm assuming Trestolone would be out because of it being more androgenic.

Just curious to get some thoughts on this.

 

[bbxtreme]

In reference to the bold above.

NEMSZ- not to hijack your question for Doggcrapp but with the above in bold what can be done to create aromatase for someone who can get crushed Estradiol from Primo or EQ? (I don't use orals so Anavar isn't an option). If I were to run lower Test with Primo or EQ, it would tank my estrogen.

What would be an option? Toss in some DHEA or add in NPP or Deca to help create aromatase? I'm assuming Trestolone would be out because of it being more androgenic.

Just curious to get some thoughts on this.

HCG, DHEA and pregnenolone are my three go-to’s.

But I still in this scenario would keep test high enough to try and eliminate this. 600mg Test and 300mg Primo for example. I personally wouldn’t use EQ and Mast together unless my Test was 1000mg+.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Curious about your opinion on this a little deeper, if you don’t mind..

I know you’ve spoken in the past about GH use and being able to use it safely and mitigate certain negative effects but don’t know or remember if you’ve ever elaborated on it?

When I spoke to a sports cardiologist about this, he didn’t seem to have any concern with GH use (not abuse), even around doses of 4-6iu per day.. He also said that if you’ve got slightly elevated IGF levels, maybe top range of normal or slightly above (350-400ish) then you probably won’t run into many issues (all bases for health being covered of course), but it’s when people get crazy with the dosages, walking around with IGF levels of 800+ constantly, extremely high blood pressure all the time, excessive food and bodyweight, where they start to see issues..

Curious about your opinion on what you’ve seen/experienced with people you’ve helped, or in general, hands on?

Would you say there’s definitely a safe range to use GH with minimal chances of these effects? Please feel free to add any preventative measures you believe are crucial when doing so (ie; you’ve said in the past, every bodybuilder on AAS should be taking things like Curcumin, Natto, lipid supps etc, so apply that here) and the dosage ranges you feel are less worrisome from what you’ve seen?

Also I noticed you specified Androgens vs Anabolics..

Obviously high doses and abuse of any PEDs aren’t going to buy you any longevity, but I had this conversation with @bbxtreme and we’ve both gone to Sports Cardiologists, and the consensus seems to be (again, AAS “abuse” aside) that if you want to be as heart healthy as possible while still using PEDs for specific goals, you’d want to run lower Androgenic compounds and use something like a lower base of Testosterone but fill up the MG with something like Primo, Anavar, Boldenone etc which are less Androgenic (not that they don’t carry their own risks when abused as well, but talking about intelligent use here), which therefore technically don’t bind to Androgen receptors in the heart which would cause more issues with higher androgenic AAS…

Thoughts on this as well??

I absolutely agree with everything you said. Anything I say here will be my personal opinion and my personal opinion only. It goes back to the Ibuprofen mentality. "oh two Ibruprofen fixed that problem, I am going to use 30 a day since 2 Ibruprofen fix the problem" <---that stuff drives me nuts. What else drives me nuts is when influencers try to convince/brainwash others AND MAINLY THEMSELVES that the abuse THEY are doing is totally fine. If someone wants to abuse themselves = totally fine. But to portray that their abuse for themselves (because they want crowd backup and dont want the worry) is ok for everyone else....I have a problem with that.

Does anyone here think the myriad of guys who have died in bodybuilding knew they were going to die? THEY DIDNT! DanielTX did not know he was going to sit down for breakfast and have a heart attack. I couldnt imagine dying at 38. Virtually everything I have accomplished in life (marriage/kids/business etc) came after 38. Nobody in bbing thought they were going to die 24 hours later or they would have changed everything they possibly could to just live. So i personally have problems with people who encourage others to "do what I do" because I am totally fine. (All the guys that died thought they were totally fine also until they werent)

I am getting off the topic. The GH sweet spot of health. I dont know i can only speculate. Ill just say this. The people that I have seen get in trouble were mostly (not all) but mostly in the 10-26ius range daily (with androgens). Again going on personal opinion from what I have seen in people.... do i think anyone is going to get in trouble with gh IU usage of 1-6ius a day? No i dont. I have not seen that (unless they went all out with androgens also)

The "but they give kids 18ius a day" crew who love to state that? Seen some of the studies that came out of some of those kids later on? They are starting to come out...there is some cardiac changes in there. And those kids arent even using androgens!

I think i have said this before on this board. Virtually every single bber i have ever heard/seen use 3 plus grams of testosterone for long, long lengths of time died young. I say virtually because some made it thru (like a pro with the initials JP) and others but the majority didnt.

I have seen a lot of guys on androgens with heavy heavy gh usage run into ejection fraction, cardiomeglia/LVH problems with length of usage.
I am weird with this stuff. I have been around for 40 years and i really look into peoples deaths and what they were doing to delve info from their mistakes. Its kind of how I know that the majority of bbers who died didnt take the vaccine...I researched it and researched it (thru posts/family posts/friends) until i got the answers.

The androgen part. Do I think people could run lower dose testosterone, respectable dose GH for the rest of their lives and live a long healthful life? Yes resoundingly yes. Do I think they could do it also with primo added? Yes if their bloodwork proves it so. Do i think they could do low test/resp GH with micro dosing androgens also. Heck yes if the bloodwork proves it so. Anavar I dont put into safe usage longterm because of what it does to lipids...but you are talking to a guy who does not understand dying for a trophy or even worse "dying to have a look" so maybe I am not the best guy to give opinions on all this stuff....but i think anyone/everyone can design things for themselves with lower test usage / respectable gh usage and either anabolic usage or micro dosing androgen usage and be totally healthy and fine.

 

[AllLoadedUp]

okay well then peanut butter kills people

Well I'm fucked.

 

[Alzadosghost]

I've seen many times nfl offensive lineman immediately slim down to 220ish lbs from 300 when they retired for health. These guys know carrying excessive weight at 40+ years ago is asking for trouble

That happens when you come off all the drugs to gain that weight. My friend Scott played many years in the nfl and was pro bowl o lineman. Almost immediately upon retiring he lost 80lbs and looked skinny. One of the reasons I know about steroids and the nfl is from him. He said in the 80s and early 90s everyone was using them.

 

[NorwegianMuscle]

half a vial a week is extreme?



as for what kills bodybuilders the most? diuretics probably..

ahhhh someone said it. I would say the diuretics.

 

[Mufasa123]

That happens when you come off all the drugs to gain that weight. My friend Scott played many years in the nfl and was pro bowl o lineman. Almost immediately upon retiring he lost 80lbs and looked skinny. One of the reasons I know about steroids and the nfl is from him. He said in the 80s and early 90s everyone was using them.

Friend played at around 305 at 6'2" or 6'3". Left the league and dropped to 240. Guys that don't...die before 60. With a 300+ bodyweight you don't need copious GH or Anabolics to die. These certainly won't help but big bodyweight and lifestyle will do the job all on their own.

 

[KingOfSushi]

ahhhh someone said it. I would say the diuretics.

Maybe in an immediate “kill you that moment” sense sure.

But as a whole? I must disagree. There are not more bodybuilders dying from diuretics than from heart issues that compounded from decades of use + mismanagement of BP etc

 

[FakeName123]

Didn’t you say you used to use meth and also have HIV?

LOL. I was about to ask him to define """stimulants""", but I think this suffices

 

[Dumbbell2008]

The androgen part. Do I think people could run lower dose testosterone, respectable dose GH for the rest of their lives and live a long healthful life? Yes resoundingly yes. Do I think they could do it also with primo added? Yes if their bloodwork proves it so. Do i think they could do low test/resp GH with micro dosing androgens also. Heck yes if the bloodwork proves it so. Anavar I dont put into safe usage longterm because of what it does to lipids...but you are talking to a guy who does not understand dying for a trophy or even worse "dying to have a look" so maybe I am not the best guy to give opinions on all this stuff....but i think anyone/everyone can design things for themselves with lower test usage / respectable gh usage and either anabolic usage or micro dosing androgen usage and be totally healthy and fine.

What would you consider a lower dose of testosterone?

 

[neutrino]

It's all speculation. We have no scientific evidence that clarifies compound x = death. There are so many variables and often times, imo, it is a combination of factors. Not a single compound out there guarantees death, beyond irresponsible use of insulin, DNP, or even stims like ephedrine.

 

[Alzadosghost]

It's all speculation. We have no scientific evidence that clarifies compound x = death. There are so many variables and often times, imo, it is a combination of factors. Not a single compound out there guarantees death, beyond irresponsible use of insulin, DNP, or even stims like ephedrine.

Iv been using ephedrine since 92. It won’t kill you and more than a fucking cup of coffee. Lol

 

[neutrino]

Iv been using ephedrine since 92. It won’t kill you and more than a fucking cup of coffee. Lol

What i meant was you can definitely overdose on ephedrine. Hense the word "irresponsible" in there. Ive ran cycles of DNP over thr course of 3 years, that does not mean the shit ain't deadly af.