The genetic limit on ultimate size and strength

[Kaladryn]

You guys are talking about two completely different ideas: is there a genetic limit on growth and do people have different genetics. The former is an interesting debate, the latter isn't even worth mentioning.

You can always keep growing, I mean come on, insulin, gh, site enhancement, you can always keep growing under ideal conditions, if health and age are there.

 

[hawkmoon]

You guys are talking about two completely different ideas: is there a genetic limit on growth and do people have different genetics. The former is an interesting debate, the latter isn't even worth mentioning.

You can always keep growing, I mean come on, insulin, gh, site enhancement, you can always keep growing under ideal conditions, if health and age are there.

Exactly. I have only used the latter to help illustrate the former.

I do believe there is a limit however, and for many the amount of drugs food, training, etc will bring no further progress.

Many will top out at "very big and muscular" to the average person, but nowhere near top national level or pro.

Is this absolute? I believe so, but I'm eager to hear different views.

 

[homonunculus]

We all know genetics is key in bodybuilding.

Often when we speak of genetic limitations, it is in the context of muscle bellies, insertions, limb and torso length, etc.
While all this is true, I believe the real hard ceiling of genetics is the upper limit of size and strength.

Hormones factored in, is seems to me that the great majority will hit a limit of quality muscle far below a national competitor or pro.
Of course this is often down to consistency of effort, but my personal observations of myself as well as people around me and internet associates, is that most people will hit a wall.

People can mix up training, drugs, food - any factor they like, but they will not progress beyond this point.

On the other side, we have gifted athletes who continue to progress.
Phil Health is the most extreme example I can think of. We have Levrone blowing up while dieting, Luke Sandoe said growth and strength came easy for him, and many others.
That said there are plenty of pros we know too who will never improve beyond their current state, and will never win a significant show because of their limitations (keep aside the aspects of shape or structure, etc here, just speaking of raw muscle quality).

Most people I see on the local and regional level, on the internet, etc are bodybuilders who are working hard, eating well, and often using a lot of gear.
Yet they are stuck...it seems like the proportionate quality muscle limit is somewhere in the range of 5'8" 200lbs to 6'0" 240 in good - not contest - shape (8-12% BF).

People don't like being confronted by limits out of their control as we like to forge our own path, but as it's often said, reality doesn't care about our feelings.

Myself, I have been the same size and strength for almost 30 years despite trying many options. I know my limit was reached long ago, and I'm OK with that.
I don't regret my experience at all and I'm grateful to have gone as far as I have, which is further than some.

So, I'm curious what our community thinks.
There will never be research on this so the best we can hope for is anecdotal experience and opinion.

HM,

There is actually a fairly solid body of literature examining factors related to responsiveness to hypertrophic growth stimuli (in humans undergoing resistance training). Certain MicroRNA's, the promotor region for IGF-1, the initial satellite cell density and factors affecting their recruitment (MGF and myogenin) likely play a role with the initial rate of growth, whereas factors involved with the inflammatory response (IL-6 and prostaglandins) show mixed evidence, which I suspect could be a function of the hormetic nature of the hypertrophic stimulus: Too much or too little and the stimulus is suboptimal (Suggesting the volume, frequency, etc. could be adjusted perhaps).

If we presume that these (and other) represent the sensitivity to any exercise stimulus in terms of hypertrophic adaptation, then for a given diet, training regime, food intake, the maximal adaptation will reflect the underlying genetics...

Is there a limit to muscle size and growth - of course, there is some limit: You don't see skeletal muscle growing in an uncontrolled limitless fashion (even with myostatin deficiency) and we don't have bodybuilders weighing 500lb who continue to grow.

Can you you keep growing in many cases? Yes, perhaps technically, but as has been said here, the law of diminishing returns will apply such that growth will approach / approximate some limit asymptotically and the measures needed to get closer to that limit become extraordinary the closer one gets.

Here's the thing, though - back to the concept of hormesis. There's an optimal stimulus / dose response for training, food, PED's, etc and they're all interwoven. Too much training and one starts to backslide. Same with gear - toxicity issues become predominant and more certainly does not equal better at higher doses. This will be true to some degree for everyone.

Its been said that those with the best genetics can recovery from a massive amount of training, have perhaps a hardiness that limits drug toxicity, are able to stay chill and truly relax when it's time to just chill out (think guys like Ronnie, Jay, Dexter, Roelly, and a host of other top pro's - very common to see guys here who can train like animals, but also know how to relax). So - put all these together and when it comes to a training and PED regime simply being better equipped to recover (diminished inflammatory response, for example, and a hearty liver), those with the best genetics can train more and recover and even, if needed (and it's often NOT) get away with more PEDs. This means that part of one's genetic is sensitivity to a stimulus as well as the ability to recover and apply a greater stimulus (without it being excessive).

[There are factors too, when it comes to AAS such as SNP's of the phosphodiesterase that cleaves the esterificed fatty acid from injectables, thus dictating AUC of something like test enanthate or deca, and the structure of the androgen receptor (glutamine amino acid repeats in a particular region) that confer different binding affinities for androgens and thus likely affect signal transduction.]

Hell, simply having a big appetite and a GI system that matches is a huge asset to putting on size. Jay C. has talked about this, and Kai Greene as well. (Luke S. was known for a huge appetite, too.)

Hope this gets at your Q a bit more.

-S

 

[IronLion2]

Anything and I do mean anything about bodybuilding can be altered, body shape response to drugs etc

 

[Elvia1023]

You guys are talking about two completely different ideas: is there a genetic limit on growth and do people have different genetics. The former is an interesting debate, the latter isn't even worth mentioning.

You can always keep growing, I mean come on, insulin, gh, site enhancement, you can always keep growing under ideal conditions, if health and age are there.

Exactly. It's an interesting topic but I also think it's very simple. As posted there is a limit to everything and laws of diminishing returns will come into play. However in regards to just growth people could really push it but most don't because why would they. It would be a horrible and very short life but sure if someone wants to be 350+ solid pounds go for it if it makes you happy. Of course you will hit a wall and it's not like we can just keep on eating more food and lifting heavier weights non stop. There are always limits in place to everything and the variables are endless. The perceived limits of society do continually increase through time and I don't see that stopping but there is obviously a limit to the human body. It's not like we will have ripped bodybuilders at 500 pounds in 200 years... far from it.

The posts about simply making up the gap are not possible. Yes for some they can outwork genetics but they also need to have certain genetics in place to do so. Many often use Dorian Yates and Flex Wheeler as a good example of that. However they almost talk like Dorian had bad genetics which is nonsense. Bodybuilding is all about genetics. You could have a team of scientists and coaches in a clinical setting training and drugging 100 people with utter shit genetics and there is no way they are going to get to the top. Some people simply don't have it and whilst they could mutate under optimal conditions they are not going to beat Phil Heath in a bodybuilding show no matter how much test, tren, igf-1, seo you give them.

 

[maldorf]

I dont understand why guys can't accept just how important genetics are. Most don't question that we can't all be nuclear scientists, or other intellectual pursuits at the top of the heap. When it comes to being huge and muscular, the human physiology rather than mental power, guys seem to think everyone is capable of reaching a high level. I look at the two as being equally hard to achieve.

To be a pro you need to have great proportions, insertions, symmetry, etc to make it. Most dont don't question heredity on that account and realize that the finer points of the muscular anatomy are set at birth. Regardless of this, they persist to believe that all guys can develop muscular and lean arms that are 20 inches plus and reach a lean 270 plus pounds or more if they just lift hard enough, eat right, rest right, and take enough PEDs. If that were true, there would be a lot more guys like that. Heck, many of us on here would be like that.

There is a genetic limit to how much muscle a body can develop. Some can have more, others not so much. I think it's quite simple, we can't all be smart like Einstein. When you're trying to achieve 270 plus pounds lean, you want to have a positive mindset and keep working hard but I think after awhile people begin to fool themselves into believing their own fibs so that they don't give up. It can be hard to swallow when you realize that when you look in the mirror that this is as good as it gets.

 

[juggy38]

I got a good taste of genetics while playing D2 ball. We were a VERY good team. Averaged 8 wins a season over my 4 years. Went to the 2nd round of the D2 playoffs my senior year and lost to the team that played in the national championship.

Each year, we would get 2, sometimes 3 D1 or Juco transfers that didn’t make grades, got in trouble, or didn’t want to be backup to Colin KapernicK. (TRUE STORY!)

They were fucking freaks compared to the other 8-9 starters. Bigger, faster, leaner. Most of them didn’t train or practice as hard as the rest of us. They just walked in to the weight room, had 30+ inch verticals, 4.5 speed, 300+lb power cleans.

I was like, well fuck. I watched tape, trained my ass off, ran gassers on weekends, and was on the sauce. And still, I was an average joe next to them.

 

[hawkmoon]

Some great insight here guys thanks.

It seems we have a few views on this, each making perfect sense from their perspective.

 

[massmonster32]

I believe that genetics only limit ones shape the muscle looks like when it grows. Hence how the judges place a competitor on the persons look. I do not believe that genetics limit ones ability to get the size. For example Dave Palumbo and Greg Kovacs, Marcus Ruhl looked bad ass but lacked the pretty look the judges want in a competitor. MM

 

[headtrainer]

I compare trying to gain more muscle to trying to run faster. Genetics will always be the determining factor in muscle growth and speed regardless of the effort applied. It’s not an easy thing to accept our genetic potential.

 

[maldorf]

I compare trying to gain more muscle to trying to run faster. Genetics will always be the determining factor in muscle growth and speed regardless of the effort applied. It’s not an easy thing to accept our genetic potential.

Good analogy. I believe its the naturally born "mesomorphs" that have the greatest potential for bodybuilding. Some endomorphs can develop big muscles but will lack some of the asthetics. Id wager a majority of ectomorphs won't be able to develop muscles as big as the other phenotypes. I think in some cases, some folks are simply born with fewer skeletal muscle cells. When a muscle grows as a whole its mostly just the cells getting bigger, and I believe that most of the cells you have as an adult you were born with. New muscle cells surely aren't produced Iike fat cells.

Does Lifting Weights Increase the Amount of Muscle Tissue?

Weight training builds muscle mass through progressive resistance. The movement of lifting...

livehealthy.chron.com

 

[juggy38]

I think many guys try to push more than used too.

Like years ago, if 500 test and 600 deca didn’t get you competitive, guys just kinda stopped there.

Now That same guy will push 700mg test, 700mg tren, 600mg EQ, 5-7iu growth, 30iu insulin.

Now he is competitive at small shows. But at what costs?

 

[Tomgrass]

Very true in a past like three years ago I was not shy from big doses but I have notice that no matter what I will never be huge. My response for gear was nothing amazing and I just pleatue after 4 years. In hope to get better results I was still pushing food training gear but gains were minimal. On top of it is felt just awful above 104kg. Just too heavy , snoring at night tired during day so I decided to go to self prescribe trt and stop kidding myself about potential results.

 

[USMuscle9403]

Anyone who doesn't believe in genetic superiority is fooling themselves. Sure we have freaks like Ronnie but it makes you wonder who else is out there. Thing is... Those other genetically gifted freaks aren't going into bodybuilding, they're making millions of dollars as pro athletes. Or going to prison lol.

If you want to see genetic freaks, do as juggy did and pay attention to D2 kids. High school freshman coming in and throwing up 315 their first time on the bench. We had one kid, a freshman, who put up 405 his first time. This kid had traps up to his ears and could barely fit through doorways when he was 15. Sucked shit at football, though... Lol.

It makes you wonder if that kid started on gear and took his diet and training seriously what he would end up looking like. His name was Torian, I wonder how many of them are out there? A lot of them probably don't even lift weights.

Everything in this sport boils down to genetics, from your response to gear to what diet is best for you. If you think you can get to 300 lean and want to take the drugs necessary to get there, that's your prerogative...

 

[danieltx]

This topic has gone in a few different directions. I'm going to give general thoughts based purely on my personal experience.

I've come much further than I ever thought I would. If I was stuck forever with what I had a few years ago, I'd be happy with it.

I don't think most people will hit their genetic limit of size or strength because they're not willing to work hard enough, eat enough, or use certain compounds / keep increasing dosages / etc. That's a cold, hard reality of this sport, and I direct everyone who disagrees to Big A's famous The Truth thread - https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/so-sick-of-this-heres-the-truth.53353/. There's also how much you're willing to prioritize bodybuilding in your life, doing it as a single guy vs. married with kids, your robustness in terms of having low side effects and being able to handle a lot of strain on the body, etc.

I'm thrilled with where I am right now and this year I actually surpassed a long-term goal I set 7-8 years ago - 230lbs. at single digit body fat. Currently 224lbs. at 6%.

I've been making progress for 10 years with no signs of it slowing any time soon, and I'm 33.

The first time I ever dieted I ended up 166lbs. at maybe 9-10%. That's where I started. I spent a few years trying to figure it all out in the beginning, then a few years powerlifting, and now a few years of bodybuilding. I remember the first time I hit 190lbs. with abs. Not ripped, just a good outline of abs. Over the years I got better at training and dieting and got real lean for the first time at 196lbs. at 7.5%. I kept refining my training / nutrition / supplementation, and fast forward a few years to today - just had a Dexa scan of 220lbs. at 6% on Friday.

I've never had a mentor in this. I literally don't have any social acquaintances who have anything to do with fitness. I've never had a training partner. I've figured everything out on my own through reading magazines, Bodybuilding.com, boards like Professional Muscle, and other resources. And most importantly, TONS of trial and error. I've recorded everything I do for years - diet, workout, supplements, general notes on performance and how I feel, etc. - which is a key factor in how I keep progressing. But more than anything, I keep progressing because I want it that bad.

At 33, I'm the biggest, leanest, and strongest I've ever been. I made the best gains of my life, both in size and strength, over the last year.

Are there hard genetic limits? Most likely. I don't know that we'll ever see a stage-ready 400lb. bodybuilder, but we do have pros like Morgan Aste who are in pretty good condition at 360lbs. People wouldn't have believed that was possible 30 years ago.

I believe most limits are self-imposed - the mind is incredibly powerful. Think about Dorian Yates, one of the first to hit 300lbs. Once he did, others saw it was possible, and we started seeing more guys hit that size.

I never thought I'd be 190lbs. ripped, but I worked for it and got there. I said ok, I did that, so I can probably do a little more. And I achieved a little more and kept aiming for even more. 2 years ago I peaked at 241lbs. in the offseason; last year I peaked at 259lbs.; this year it's 275lbs+.

Most are capable of more than they realize, but never take the steps to get there.

 

[juggy38]

Anyone who doesn't believe in genetic superiority is fooling themselves. Sure we have freaks like Ronnie but it makes you wonder who else is out there. Thing is... Those other genetically gifted freaks aren't going into bodybuilding, they're making millions of dollars as pro athletes. Or going to prison lol.

If you want to see genetic freaks, do as juggy did and pay attention to D2 kids. High school freshman coming in and throwing up 315 their first time on the bench. We had one kid, a freshman, who put up 405 his first time. This kid had traps up to his ears and could barely fit through doorways when he was 15. Sucked shit at football, though... Lol.

It makes you wonder if that kid started on gear and took his diet and training seriously what he would end up looking like. His name was Torian, I wonder how many of them are out there? A lot of them probably don't even lift weights.

Everything in this sport boils down to genetics, from your response to gear to what diet is best for you. If you think you can get to 300 lean and want to take the drugs necessary to get there, that's your prerogative...

Haha we had a defensive lineman named Gavin. Lazy as fuck, really nice guy. Just went through workouts and skipped sets when the coaches weren’t looking. I am not shitting you on max day, benched 475 and had more left. Probably 6ft and 285lbs bodyweight.

 

[airman]

danieltx Do you think you will hit 230 at 6%? 240 at 6% 250 at 6%? I'm just saying, that no matter how hard we try there will always be a genetic limit, and it's different for everyone.

 

[danieltx]

danieltx Do you think you will hit 230 at 6%? 240 at 6% 250 at 6%? I'm just saying, that no matter how hard we try there will always be a genetic limit, and it's different for everyone.

I absolutely do. I plan on another 5-7 years of pushing really hard with bodybuilding and 250lbs. at 6% is doable in that period.

I had a Dexa of 202lbs. at 7% last year, 220lbs. at 6% this year. If I can hit 275lbs. this offseason, 235lbs.+ at 6% is easily doable for next year's Dexa. Even calculating with a depreciating rate of gains over the next few years makes 250lbs. at 6% a realistic goal in 5-7 years.

 

[maldorf]

danieltx Do you think you will hit 230 at 6%? 240 at 6% 250 at 6%? I'm just saying, that no matter how hard we try there will always be a genetic limit, and it's different for everyone.

Big thing that's frustrating, there are young athletes out there than could diet down to 6 foot 230lbs at 6% to10% bf and they are natural. Many guys call bullshit, but some of us have met them in person. There were a few football players at the college I was at like that. Back in the late 80s early 90s. One I'm almost 100% sure was natural and the other was reported to be. At 21 years old the one guy deadlifted about 675 lbs. I think his bodyweight at competition was 242. He was about my height, 6 foot. He was on the football team too. Even if he were juicing, he was huge for his young age and couldn't have been on much. He looked natural. I dont think they drug tested football players back then.

 

[Mike Arnold]

It's a great topic and could be discussed in great length. Of course there is a genetic limit and that is different for everyone. However if this topic is about ultimate size and strength it changes things. Ultimate size and muscle mass are very different to looking great or "proportional". Of course there is still a genetic limit for just sheer size but 99.9% of us are nowhere near that. Who can honestly say they have tried to get as big as humanly possible on here. As big as possible with a tight waist is a much different thing... most guys haven't even done that either. There are guys who have barely broke 200 stating they have which is laughable. Now if your post was about looking proportional at the same time like a competitive bb that is different and of course many (loads of great bb's such as yourself on this forum) are closer to their limits but most could still push much more if their life depended upon it.

Unless someone is a legit midget they can get to approx 300 pounds. The reason we don't is because we don't want to. Even if you wanted to it may not be enough because it would be extremely hard and not a comfortable life. It would also be a much shorter life than if you had stayed at 160. It would be a full time job eating that much food, taking the drugs and training etc and the amount of dedication it would take would be huge. There are not many people who have lived who have said I want to get as big as humanly possible. If that was your goal you would be eating over 10,000 calories per day. No questions asked it would be as much as you could fit in to get as big as humanly possible. None of this high protein is not needed you would literally be stuffing your face and force feeding daily if your goal was to get as humanly big and muscular as possible. It would be a crap life and that's why we obviously don't do it. Look at some of the strongman and powerlifters at their biggest (3-450 pounds) that is closer to carrying as much muscle mass as possible compared to most on here. I don't even eat half of what I would need to get to 300 pounds so I am exactly the same. Again there are not many humans who are even close to this.

I have seen a few guys on the internet who are legit 350 pounds and lean so they are pushing the boundaries. I am talking about guys like Illia "Golem" Yefimchyk but there are a few. It's a weird world because even guys on here who want to be big and ripped they see guys like that and the 1st thing they think is he is going to die soon. We all love to see the mass monsters but they are looked at like circus freaks. If a guy posts about pushing things to the extreme he is bombarded with posts about health or he doesn't need that much protein or that much test etc. Nothing is healthy about being as big as humanly possible and they are pretty much guaranteed to die in their 40-50's if they stay that size. The fact some of these guys have such low esteem is what pushes them to the extreme as no rational minded person would likely want to do what they do. Me personally if it makes someone happy then go for it and I don't get all the hate some of these guys get. Went a bit of topic there but just something I have noticed.

One of the most frequent signs (aside from the obvious ones) associated with massive SEO abuse is that the chests of SEO abusers are almost always about HALF the size they should be, relative to the rest of their body.
"Golem" is no exception.

I want to see a guy with a quality chest (no SEO's) that is as freaky big as some of the SEO-loaded arms and delts we see out there. However, we have never seen that because if SEO were used in the chest, to the same degree we see i he arms and delts, it would look like shit.

So, when attempting to discern the true upper-limit of muscle growth (with the drugs currently available to us), we should look at the biggest chests (and backs) of today's bodybuilders, as those bodyparts are, generally speaking, a much better indicator than the arms or delts. If you look at Golem in front shots (with no pump), the discrepancy between his chest and arms/delts is glaring. If he had never used any SEO's, I think we would be seeing a MUCH smaller version of Golem that we currently do. We saw the same thing with Rich Piana--massive arms and delts but a comparatively poor chest.