The importance of bloodwork ON cycle

[Swifto]

I've dropped it already--however, my fear is that the test is going to suppress any HDL recovery. I've actually set bloodwork for the exact end of my cycle to see the overall picture. Hoping for the best, but trying to be realistic about it too.

It would be interesting to see if anybody else has had similar experiences. Obviously Elvia has, but it was with superdrol which is a known offender. It'd be great if we could compile a list of bloodwork mid-cycle with various orals--especially anavar since everyone thinks it's so "mild"--and build a conclusive body of evidence.

This is something I wish I had known earlier in life (by known I mean had conclusive in-your-face evidence for myself or a huge body of evidence from others). Not that the younger version of myself would have cared as much. But maybe some younger cats out there would see this body of evidence and save the orals for competition time only.

Turinabol also trashed my lipids. At 40-60mg per day after weeks of use. Add it to your list.

I believe all 17aa orals are mostly severe on lipids. There liver function adverse effects are often overstated, but when it comes to cholesterol, they're all tough IMO.

 

[x1xjcramair1x1]

Thanks for sharing and a great reminder to all of us that are using gear Bieberhole

It drives me insane when I see guys that brag about how great their labs look after being off for 8 weeks and then start blasting tren, orals and in some cases drinking booze and whatever else.

My theory is that if your going to spend $ on gear THEN you better budget $ for labs at least ever 3 months.

Monitoring blood pressure 4/5 x per week is something I do and also when I hit my 30s I started getting stress tests done yearly. My primary happens to be a cardiologist and said that the stress test is something that many men over 35 ignore.

 

[bieberhole69]

Thanks for sharing and a great reminder to all of us that are using gear Bieberhole

It drives me insane when I see guys that brag about how great their labs look after being off for 8 weeks and then start blasting tren, orals and in some cases drinking booze and whatever else.

My theory is that if your going to spend $ on gear THEN you better budget $ for labs at least ever 3 months.

Monitoring blood pressure 4/5 x per week is something I do and also when I hit my 30s I started getting stress tests done yearly. My primary happens to be a cardiologist and said that the stress test is something that many men over 35 ignore.

I agree. My labs are usually much better in 6 weeks which is why I scheduled for end of blast to see the overall picture this time. It's not like bloodwork is expensive, even if you don't have insurance.

Curious...what blood pressure cuff do you use? Is it close to Dr's / manual readings? I have a manual one, but if you have a good reliable electronic one you can recommend (the last one I got was very inconsistent so I've been hesitant) I'd appreciate it.

 

[x1xjcramair1x1]

I agree. My labs are usually much better in 6 weeks which is why I scheduled for end of blast to see the overall picture this time. It's not like bloodwork is expensive, even if you don't have insurance.

Curious...what blood pressure cuff do you use? Is it close to Dr's / manual readings? I have a manual one, but if you have a good reliable electronic one you can recommend (the last one I got was very inconsistent so I've been hesitant) I'd appreciate it.

I've used a number of cuffs over the last 15 years, but the last 4 years I've been using an Omron Intellisense (HEM-637) wrist cuff. When I first purchased it I brought it to my Dr's office and used it right after he took multiple readings over an hour and it was within 2/3 points on both systolic and diastolic pressure. I like it because it's accurate I don't have to worry about arm cuff size and it saves up to 180 readings. It also captures heart rate. I think you can get one at Walgreens or Amazon for about $50 these days. It hasn't failed me yet.

 

[Thebigone]

I personally do not think blood work while being ON a cycle is that important aside from checking your blood pressure. It's normal to have messed up lipids, liver, etc. because you are taking something that's clearly not healthy. I think it's more important to get your blood work done before a cycle to make sure you're healthy so you can start a cycle and then months after your cycle get it done again to make sure you remain just as healthy.

 

[bieberhole69]

I personally do not think blood work while being ON a cycle is that important aside from checking your blood pressure. It's normal to have messed up lipids, liver, etc. because you are taking something that's clearly not healthy. I think it's more important to get your blood work done before a cycle to make sure you're healthy so you can start a cycle and then months after your cycle get it done again to make sure you remain just as healthy.

May I ask how often you cruise?

Tons of guys do the time on = time off rule. Many do "as soon as my bloodwork is back in range."

That means half the year their lipids are terrible. I'm pretty sure that type cycling is causing irreversible damage.

 

[minister]

Hope everyone is healthy and well.
Well, I do blood work at different times throughout the year and I know there are some drugs that just killed my lipid count.
For example after 4 weeks of anavar my good cholesterol goes to 8, terrible.
I still use it for no more than 5 weeks and still has a tremendous impact in my body composition.
My lipid count normalizes after 4 weeks, and I only use var a couple of times a year before my vacations.
Tren is another lipid killer for me, last time I used tren my good cholesterol went all the way down to 4 .
Needless to say I haven't touched Tren in years.
I am 53 years old and been using gear for almost 20 years and have become very cautious about gear.
Masteron and Test is what I use, sometimes Primo and a couple of times a year anavar.
I do not think there is any of us whose metabolic panel will turn out perfect mid cycle, you just have to monitor blood counts and blood pressure and make sure things do not get too far off for long periods of time, otherwise for sure you will end up with one of 3 things, liver problems, kidney failure or heart disease, no way around it.
Be wise brothers, remember there are a lot of people who love you and depend on you to be there for them so take care of yourselves and stay healthy.
God bless you. Minister

 

[Thebigone]

May I ask how often you cruise?

Tons of guys do the time on = time off rule. Many do "as soon as my bloodwork is back in range."

That means half the year their lipids are terrible. I'm pretty sure that type cycling is causing irreversible damage.

My "hrt" is 300mg test and 25mg proviron. I absorb test fast so my levels are just out of the high end of the range on 300mg test where most would get that off 150-200mg. I don't usually cycle but I'll throw in something here and there,etc... when on just "hrt" bloods are pretty normal except lower hdl(I'm working on a better higher healthy fat diet) to fix that and hemo is on the higher side.

Also I don't worry about lipids on paper. I get an echo or cardiac MRI done 1-2x per year to get the real results.

 

[bieberhole69]

My "hrt" is 300mg test and 25mg proviron. I absorb test fast so my levels are just out of the high end of the range on 300mg test where most would get that off 150-200mg. I don't usually cycle but I'll throw in something here and there,etc... when on just "hrt" bloods are pretty normal except lower hdl(I'm working on a better higher healthy fat diet) to fix that and hemo is on the higher side.

Also I don't worry about lipids on paper. I get an echo or cardiac MRI done 1-2x per year to get the real results.

Thanks for sharing. Yours is definitely a different situation than most, since you said yourself you don't usually cycle. My response was thinking that perhaps you were doing what others normally do, in which case it would make a serious difference.

Ultimately I think you're doing the right things to check yourself too, which most of the other guys unconcerned with their lipid values on cycle (and short time off) aren't doing. Did you have to get a referral the first time? I'd be interested in getting myself checked out like this too.

 

[bieberhole69]

Update: finally got full bloodwork back in. Here's the full (relevant) info for those that wanted to know.

In 2 weeks on 20mg dbol:

LDL increased 50 (from 106 to 156)
HDL decreased 24 (from 40 to 16)
VLDL increased 16 (from 14 to 30)
Triglycerides increased 80 (from 68 to 148)

Doctor didn't seem concerned about triglycerides, asked me if I was on the doughnut diet though.

Other notable finds:

AST was fine (35). Last time (off everything 6mos) was elevated at 44
ALT was elevated at 59, but last time was elevated at 77.

Creatinine and BUN were fine. Creatinine actually lower than off cycle (0.98 vs last go-round at 1.34).

Hemoglobin 15.4 and hematocrit 46.7 (last bloodwork which, again, done 6mos off everything was 16.4 and 47.6, respectively).

So what does this tell me (YMMV)?

That liver concern isn't the main issue with orals (at least a lower dose of dbol), rather--the immediate and strong impact on my lipid profile is.

Anyways, for those that wanted to know the values, there they are. Hope this knowledge helps others, or at least gets them looking at their own.

Dbol was discontinued the day I received the phone call about my lipids being out of whack. Will either come back in and update thread with end of cycle bloodwork or start another thread entirely with before, 2 weeks in, post. I've scheduled it for the exact last week of the cycle, so should be interesting to get the complete picture.

 

[Thebigone]

Thanks for sharing. Yours is definitely a different situation than most, since you said yourself you don't usually cycle. My response was thinking that perhaps you were doing what others normally do, in which case it would make a serious difference.

Ultimately I think you're doing the right things to check yourself too, which most of the other guys unconcerned with their lipid values on cycle (and short time off) aren't doing. Did you have to get a referral the first time? I'd be interested in getting myself checked out like this too.

Usually with a PPO if it's good insurance you don't need a referral at least I didn't. I find it's best to exaggerate things to get what you need done. Like say things like i get palpitations, fast heartbeat, tight chest, diet terrible lots of fast food, exaggerate things that you don't really have that way they go the full steps of giving you the echocardiogram or MRI versus just an EKG to rush you in and out. Don't say you take test or anything that you're not prescribed unless you're tight with the doctor because I'm not sure if this is still true but in the past they used to be able to drop your insurance but I think they no longer are allowed to do that anymore but it's always good to Double check.

I think blood values are a good first indicator of problems but when they are falsely altered from any type of substance use especially steroids I don't think they are necessarily that accurate. For example when your cholesterol goes to shit from certain steroids versus somebody with the same cholesterol due to a poor diet there is no way the side effects are going to be the same. My alt and ast were elevated about threefold from a certain medication I was on for probably two years so instead of just letting it go I demanded an ultrasound on my liver and everything came back perfect. No signs of stress or anything. So this leads me to believe the blood test values were not significant. Same thing with cholesterol results were terrible for a few years but after a Echocardiogram and a cardiac MRI everything came back perfect I just have slightly elevated walls which is due to heavy lifting and higher blood pressure which can be reversed but they were very slightly elevated.

 

[nothuman]

Update: finally got full bloodwork back in. Here's the full (relevant) info for those that wanted to know.

In 2 weeks on 20mg dbol:

LDL increased 50 (from 106 to 156)
HDL decreased 24 (from 40 to 16)
VLDL increased 16 (from 14 to 30)
Triglycerides increased 80 (from 68 to 148)

Doctor didn't seem concerned about triglycerides, asked me if I was on the doughnut diet though.

Other notable finds:

AST was fine (35). Last time (off everything 6mos) was elevated at 44
ALT was elevated at 59, but last time was elevated at 77.

Creatinine and BUN were fine. Creatinine actually lower than off cycle (0.98 vs last go-round at 1.34).

Hemoglobin 15.4 and hematocrit 46.7 (last bloodwork which, again, done 6mos off everything was 16.4 and 47.6, respectively).

So what does this tell me (YMMV)?

That liver concern isn't the main issue with orals (at least a lower dose of dbol), rather--the immediate and strong impact on my lipid profile is.

Anyways, for those that wanted to know the values, there they are. Hope this knowledge helps others, or at least gets them looking at their own.

Dbol was discontinued the day I received the phone call about my lipids being out of whack. Will either come back in and update thread with end of cycle bloodwork or start another thread entirely with before, 2 weeks in, post. I've scheduled it for the exact last week of the cycle, so should be interesting to get the complete picture.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this.

 

[liv2pb]

Thanks for this eye opening thread bro. I am going to stop using orals as well. Now I know your supps/meds did not increase hdl/decrease ldl but shouldn't they still being doing help with these bad numbers? Meaning if inflammation is kept low/fats not oxidising in blood then its still less of a risk for blockages than without right?

 

[bieberhole69]

Thanks for this eye opening thread bro. I am going to stop using orals as well. Now I know your supps/meds did not increase hdl/decrease ldl but shouldn't they still being doing help with these bad numbers? Meaning if inflammation is kept low/fats not oxidising in blood then its still less of a risk for blockages than without right?

So everything I've added has helped to some degree with bloodwork OFF blast. And it may be helping ON blast (not willing to be a human experiment for this one, sorry)--but, for me, 20mg of dbol was still enough to negate those effects.

So yes, they're helping. How much I'm not sure. But they don't help enough with orals--that much is obvious from my results.

Blockages are more of a buildup over time. So say you have someone that stays on longer blasts doing all this damage, then does short cruises inbetween "till normal" (or some I know don't even care about this)--the majority of the year is spent in bad ranges.

Since we're going to use gear regardless, the best thing to do (IMO) is minimize compounds that wreck your lipids (orals, tren) while on, do the best you can with diet and cardio and supps to help your lipid values, and do everything humanly possible to get it up as quick as possible while off, and stay there for awhile if you can justify it. I'm getting older and not going anywhere with bodybuilding in my life, so my cruises / time off has extended longer and longer.

 

[jpkoepse]

This might be a dumb question and already been answered.. but is it the nature of orals that seems to wreck lipids so quickly... or is it the actual compound? For instance, would an injectable version of the compound yield a better result?

 

[Michael30]

A question for Bieber and the rest of you guys that get blood work mid cycle. What do you guys tell your Dr when they ask or talk to you about your blood work being way out of whack? I'm mostly talking to the guys that don't openly talk to there Dr about AAS use.

 

[nothuman]

So everything I've added has helped to some degree with bloodwork OFF blast. And it may be helping ON blast (not willing to be a human experiment for this one, sorry)--but, for me, 20mg of dbol was still enough to negate those effects.

So yes, they're helping. How much I'm not sure. But they don't help enough with orals--that much is obvious from my results.

Blockages are more of a buildup over time. So say you have someone that stays on longer blasts doing all this damage, then does short cruises inbetween "till normal" (or some I know don't even care about this)--the majority of the year is spent in bad ranges.

Since we're going to use gear regardless, the best thing to do (IMO) is minimize compounds that wreck your lipids (orals, tren) while on, do the best you can with diet and cardio and supps to help your lipid values, and do everything humanly possible to get it up as quick as possible while off, and stay there for awhile if you can justify it. I'm getting older and not going anywhere with bodybuilding in my life, so my cruises / time off has extended longer and longer.

I would have been curious to see if dbol raised your inflammation levels

 

[RamboStallone]

I always get my bloodwork midcycle, or right at the end in the last couple weeks. I figure if it looks good then, it can only be better in the "off" time.

 

[thebigbus]

T-bol dropped my HDL to 14 in 4 weeks.

I was denied disability insurance because of this crap. Will never touch orals again unless it's oral primo or Proviron.

Am on tren now and just got bloods today, and if HDL still tanked, I'm nixing tren forever as well.

Just not worth it.

My HDL is genetically LOW, but on 500-600mg test, it stays 30-35, with perfect LDL and total, so I can tolerate that.

But I won't tolerate the super low HDL. It may mean jack squat as far as risk, but better to be cautious.

 

[bieberhole69]

This might be a dumb question and already been answered.. but is it the nature of orals that seems to wreck lipids so quickly... or is it the actual compound? For instance, would an injectable version of the compound yield a better result?

Injectable is just going to decrease amount of liver toxicity. Should still wreck lipids same, if not more (at equal doses. IM should be more bioavailable because not passing thru liver).

A question for Bieber and the rest of you guys that get blood work mid cycle. What do you guys tell your Dr when they ask or talk to you about your blood work being way out of whack? I'm mostly talking to the guys that don't openly talk to there Dr about AAS use.

I told him I had made severe dietary changes i.e. calories increased by 2000-3000 a day. And was at my heaviest weight ever. He seemed OK with that answer. Worst case scenario you could google some of the currently legal prohormones and tell him which one you're taking

I would have been curious to see if dbol raised your inflammation levels

Yea, I'm thinking I'll ask for him to check that too next go-round. Wasn't really an option this time, as I didn't expect it to be so out of whack and was really asking for BW just to check on kidney function (had urinalysis done and wanted to double-check) since my pee had been weird foamy and dark lately. Figured why not get the lipids done too?

T-bol dropped my HDL to 14 in 4 weeks.

I was denied disability insurance because of this crap. Will never touch orals again unless it's oral primo or Proviron.

Am on tren now and just got bloods today, and if HDL still tanked, I'm nixing tren forever as well.

Just not worth it.

My HDL is genetically LOW, but on 500-600mg test, it stays 30-35, with perfect LDL and total, so I can tolerate that.

But I won't tolerate the super low HDL. It may mean jack squat as far as risk, but better to be cautious.

Just curious, when was this? Not sure how they could deny you with existing laws and even in the past, not sure how they could unless you had some other crazy issues going on.