The most important health exam you should do if you use PEDs

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

What kills bodybuilders (mainly) is cardiovascular issues.

Echocardiograms are the wrong diagnostic tool for bodybuilders because of the lack of test sensitivity it only detects a problem such as lowered ejection fraction when you are already in heart failure.

Normal echocardiograms are a disservice to bodybuilders, they are just not sensitive enough.

You can have advanced heart insufficiency yet still a normal ejection fraction.

Speckle tracking strain echocardiography, also known as an echocardiogram with strain-rate imaging is the exam you should be doing to detect heart problems.

The strain echocardiogram is a sensitive test of the myocardium, able to detect changes in morphology and function before the ejection fraction is ultimately impacted.

The exam is already used in chemotherapy to detect heart changes as the treatment is cardio-toxic.

And steroids are cardio-toxic….your heart muscle has about 3 more times androgens receptors than other muscles.

Now, getting a strain echocardiogram in your country might prove to be difficult - but if you have access to private pay or can convince your doctor urge you to do so.

The new metric of heart health in bodybuilding will be GLS (Global longitudinal strain) expressed as a negative %. The limits of normality for athletes with left ventricular adaptions is -16%, any number above this is considered pathological. (on your way to heart failure).

FYI https://academic.oup.com/eurheartjsupp/article/24/Supplement_I/I38/6823852

 

[SouthernMuscle]

your heart muscle has about 3 more times androgens receptors than other muscles.

Show me this literature

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

Show me this literature

It is an estimation based on the literature I've comes across - plus its phenotype dependent, there are people which will have more than others, it's also dependent on the amount of muscle you have.

Thats not the detail you should be clinging to, as its a very old concept the Androgen receptors mediate hypertrophy in cardiac myocytes.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

It is an estimation based on the literature I've comes across - plus its phenotype dependent, there are people which will have more than others, it's also dependent on the amount of muscle you have.

Interesting. AI could find no quantification in ANY available literature.

and I’m focusing on that point because it stood out to me as bullshit.

Anyone who registers at this site and passes by the new members thread and the rule thread is either a troll , has an angle, or is a retard.

 

[alfresco]

Interesting. AI could find no quantification in ANY available literature.

and I’m focusing on that point because it stood out to me as bullshit.

Anyone who registers at this site and passes by the new members thread and the rule thread is either a troll , has an angle, or is a retard.

Retard is a word I would avoid using in the future.

All else . . . right on

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

I understand your perspective. I understand your effort to keep the integrity of information that is presented in here.

Let me rephrase this. In human male and females, especially in males, cardiac myocytes contain androgen receptors. Atrial and ventricular myocardial cells contain androgen receptors. The heart is bathed in these cells (has a very large number of these cells), thus of androgen receptors.

Using steroids will therefore have a direct impact in modulating heart function and structure.

My 'angle' is to present speckle tracking strain echocardiogram as a tool for bodybuilders to detect pathological changes in function before their ejection fraction is lowered and they are in clinical heart failure.

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

Interesting. AI could find no quantification in ANY available literature.

and I’m focusing on that point because it stood out to me as bullshit.

Anyone who registers at this site and passes by the new members thread and the rule thread is either a troll , has an angle, or is a retard.

I understand your perspective. I understand your effort to keep the integrity of information that is presented in here.

Let me rephrase this. In human male and females, especially in males, cardiac myocytes contain androgen receptors. Atrial and ventricular myocardial cells contain androgen receptors. The heart is bathed in these cells (has a very large number of these cells), thus of androgen receptors.

Using steroids will therefore have a direct impact in modulating heart function and structure.

My 'angle' is to present speckle tracking strain echocardiogram as a tool for bodybuilders to detect pathological changes in function before their ejection fraction is lowered and they are in clinical heart failure.

 

[SouthernMuscle]

cardiac myocytes contain androgen receptors

Using steroids will therefore have a direct impact in modulating heart function and structure.

I’m not disputing these two statements

It’s common knowledge

I want to know what led you to state that the heart has 3x as many androgen receptors as skeletal muscle

 

[SouthernMuscle]

Retard is a word I would avoid using in the future.

All else . . . right on

why

 

[M@NU]

i had a cardio mrt once and if this is similar, i would not to it a second time.
40 minutes in this fucking small equipment. 2 IV bags.
One is the contrast medium, the other is pure adenosine.
My heart rate went up to 190 bpm, breathing was difficult as hell (it is already difficult on this small device, let alone when you are given adenosine)
it was pure hell.
i was so fucking exhausted after its comparable to a 15hour leg day marathon

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

i had a cardio mrt once and if this is similar, i would not to it a second time.
40 minutes in this fucking small equipment. 2 IV bags.
One is the contrast medium, the other is pure adenosine.
My heart rate went up to 190 bpm, breathing was difficult as hell (it is already difficult on this small device, let alone when you are given adenosine)
it was pure hell.
i was so fucking exhausted after its comparable to a 15hour leg day marathon

It's done in 15 minutes just like a normal echocardiogram, but with more technology behind it. The GE Vivid machine, tracks your myocardium in a 3d image.

 

[M@NU]

okay then its probably something else. Never heard of this here in germany

 

[nothuman]

What kills bodybuilders (mainly) is cardiovascular issues.

Echocardiograms are the wrong diagnostic tool for bodybuilders because of the lack of test sensitivity it only detects a problem such as lowered ejection fraction when you are already in heart failure.

Normal echocardiograms are a disservice to bodybuilders, they are just not sensitive enough.

You can have advanced heart insufficiency yet still a normal ejection fraction.

Speckle tracking strain echocardiography, also known as an echocardiogram with strain-rate imaging is the exam you should be doing to detect heart problems.

The strain echocardiogram is a sensitive test of the myocardium, able to detect changes in morphology and function before the ejection fraction is ultimately impacted.

The exam is already used in chemotherapy to detect heart changes as the treatment is cardio-toxic.

And steroids are cardio-toxic….your heart muscle has about 3 more times androgens receptors than other muscles.

Now, getting a strain echocardiogram in your country might prove to be difficult - but if you have access to private pay or can convince your doctor urge you to do so.

The new metric of heart health in bodybuilding will be GLS (Global longitudinal strain) expressed as a negative %. The limits of normality for athletes with left ventricular adaptions is -16%, any number above this is considered pathological. (on your way to heart failure).

FYI https://academic.oup.com/eurheartjsupp/article/24/Supplement_I/I38/6823852

Great first post.

I wasn’t aware of this. I have to say this isn’t particularly good news for bodybuilders and I don’t know how much cardiologists run this other type of cardiography (STE). Is it even accessible?

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

Great first post.

I wasn’t aware of this. I have to say this isn’t particularly good news for bodybuilders and I don’t know how much cardiologists run this other type of cardiography (STE). Is it even accessible?

Hi, I first came across this by a sports cardiologist that is taking care of some Olympia level bodybuilders. It's accessible, but you have to push for it.

If you do some research, they are just starting to use it in the context of PEDs. "Strain echocardiography/echocardiogram with strain + anabolic steroids" will give you a good overview.

Most research is coming of Italy and Brazil atm.

 

[Ha.Ki.Beom]

When I say "push for it" I mean, they will ask why do you want to run this? I say, my home dr. told me so because I'm taking gear.

Because for the normal population, they are assuming you are not taking something cardio-toxic....

 

[Stewie]

There's different isotypes (short-length AR variants) of androgen receptors that may repress (full-length AR) mitogenic signaling. To the best of my understanding androgen receptor-45 (short variant) is highly abundant in myocytes. Full-length AR undoubtedly has been isolated in myocytes. It's of my impression that AR45 limits differentiation.

https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1432-1033.2004.04395.x

"A naturally occurring variant of the human androgen receptor (AR) named AR45 has been identified. It lacks the entire region encoded by exon1 of the AR gene and is composed of the AR DNA-binding domain, hinge region and ligand-binding domain, preceded by a novel seven amino-acid long N-terminal extension. A survey of human tissues revealed that AR45 was expressed mainly in heart and skeletal muscle. In cotransfection experiments, AR45 inhibited AR function, an effect necessitating intact DNA- and ligand-binding properties. Overexpression of AR45 reduced the proliferation rate of the androgen-dependent LNCaP cells, in line with the repressive effects of AR45 on AR growth-promoting function. AR45 interacted with the AR N-terminal domain in two-hybrid assays, suggesting that AR inhibition was due to the formation of AR–AR45 heterodimers."


AR45 is mainly expressed in heart

"RT-PCR was carried out on a panel of human tissues to determine the expression pattern of AR45 mRNA. A primer corresponding to the AR45-specific upstream region was used together with a primer recognizing the AR common part. The strongest signal was observed in heart, followed by skeletal muscle, uterus, prostate, breast and lung. Weaker signals were seen in other tissues, including testis (Fig. 2A). In comparison, very low levels of the AR transcript were detected in heart, as compared to liver or testis (Fig. 2B). The transcript levels of the ribosomal S9 protein were determined as a control (Fig. 2C). Initial studies with an antibody directed against the AR LBD indicated that a band of about 45 kDa was present in human heart extracts (not shown). However, in the absence of an antibody recognizing the specific N-terminal extension of AR45, it cannot be excluded that this band corresponds to a degradation product of the AR.."

 

[mexbeast]

It's good to see new guys post something interesting, as opposed to post just to be able to get into the sponsors threads, even though it's what i did in the beginning

 

[readalot]

Diastolic dysfunction should also be a focus. Regular echo can pick it up.

Heart failure with preserved ejection fraction (HFpEF): More than diastolic dysfunction - Mayo Clinic

www.mayoclinic.org