The Perfect First Cycle

[dieselbuilder]

Hey guys, I have posted a few times and spoken to some people about my first cycle. I have been planning it on and off for nearly 2 years. I think posting this is a good idea because we keep getting a lot of new members who ask questions concerning first cycles...so hopefully this will pop up in the search results .

Anyway, I want everything to be perfect and I want my HPTA to go back to normal as soon as possible once I am off. The following is what I am planning on doing.

Base:
W1-9 -> Testosterone Enanthate - 250 mg (injected once per week)
W2-11 -> Arimedex - 0.25 - reduced to 0.125 mg in last week
W4-9 -> HCG - 500IU per week - 250IU 2 days before Test E injection as well as on the day of the injection
HGH through the entire cycle. (I inject 5IUs per day, 3x per week, right after waking up and post workout.)

Optional:
W6-12 Proviron 25mg 2x/d (Decided against using this after advice from a very knowledgeable person, but figured I'd put it in there so no one advises me to use it)
W1-12 Nolvadex 20mg/d (if gyno starts to show up)
W1-3 DBOL 15mg / d (ruled out because this is a first cycle)

PCT:
W13 Nolvadex - 20mg 2x/d
W14-16 Nolvadex -20mg /d


The reason I reposted this is also because I added HCG to it since that last time I asked people for advice. Also, arimidex is quite expensive, is it really important or could I do without it....

Thanks guys

 

[617ricky]

Any reason why you're using only Nolva for PCT? I have a somewhat similar cycle I'm gonna be doing (Test/Deca), and also gonna use hcg during - and I'm leading towards Aromasin for an AI instead of Arimidex. For PCT I was originally thinking about clomid and nolva together, but I'm hearing info now that I should run the Aromasin straight thru PCT and use only clomid - drop the nolva.

I've heard so much debate going each way for this. So to everyone with PCT experience. For a Test/Deca cycle, running hcg and Aromasin during - is clomid enough for PCT while still running a little Aromasin?

 

[SacToSD]

I thought we couldn't post cycle threads? Just curious. Is that canseco in your avatar?

 

[dieselbuilder]

I thought we couldn't post cycle threads? Just curious. Is that canseco in your avatar?

I reread the board rules before I posted because I heard they were updated, what I got from it was that we cant ask for someone to write us a cycle but we can be critiqued.

And yes that is Canseco

 

[SacToSD]

I reread the board rules before I posted because I heard they were updated, what I got from it was that we cant ask for advice but we can be critiqued.

And yes that is Canseco

Cool, I like Canseco... even though he turned snitch lol. Anyhow, I was going to post this before:
Anyways, 617 is right, aromasin is the way to go. And, it's inexpensive if you look for it. How about HCG throughout the entire cycle, too? That wouldn't be a bad move, either. I like seeing the HGH on there. GHRP-6 and CJC-1295 are a less expensive option than HGH, too, for the po' people out there. Maybe more test, too? 500 mg a week is good. But stacking that amount of test w/ GH? Not too sure, DatBeTrue would know more than me about that.

A good first cycle I've seen before is 14 weeks of test e 500 mg/week in 2 doses, 250 units HCG twice/week (shot day before test e inj.), eq 500-600 mg/week (for weeks 3-14 to see how I'm doing with the test alone), aromasin 12.5 mg-25 mg/day throughout, nolvadex for PCT, and possibly an add on of GHRP-6 and CJC-1295 for post cycle gains keeping, or added halfway through the cycle. Some might critisize this as too heavy for a first cycle, but the side effects of EQ are very mild, and giving yourself time between the initial test e and eq you'll know how you react. Plus, the aromasin in there will kick any freeloading estrogen to the curb, and the ghrp/cjc aren't exactly steroids, and they don't interfere with your endogenous testosterone production. It's heavy, yes, but like yours it's a combo of test, an anabolic, and some peptides, w/ good pct and maintenance HCG/aromasin throughout. Lab work, physicals, and doctor visits are a must.

 

[617ricky]

Why nolva for PCT only tho? Is it that much better than clomid?

 

[Snooze]

i dont like it but i think do to boards rules i canr tell you what i would do

 

[dieselbuilder]

Why nolva for PCT only tho? Is it that much better than clomid?

To tell you the truth, I dont remember exactly where I read it, but it is there for a reason. Plenty of people have looked at it and havent really said too much in terms of switching it with clomid... there are def plenty of posts about it on the board

i dont like it but i think do to boards rules i canr tell you what i would do

Well, you can tell me what you dont like about it and why

 

[Snooze]

first, what are your stats? age?

 

[SacToSD]

To tell you the truth, I dont remember exactly where I read it, but it is there for a reason. Plenty of people have looked at it and havent really said too much in terms of switching it with clomid... there are def plenty of posts about it on the board

From SWALE's PCT protocol:

"I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well."

He makes a good point for using nolvadex over clomid. I've always heard to avoid clomid

 

[dieselbuilder]

first, what are your stats? age?

23 years old. 5' 6'' 185. Been lifting since I was 16

 

[617ricky]

there are def plenty of posts about it on the board

There definitely are, but the info is so conflicting lol. If I can't get a good enough answer I guess I'll just take a small dose of each, but I'd hate for that to be a waste, or be worse than 1 of them by itself.

So guys - for PCT after you've been taking hcg and Aromasin during your cycle. What is the best drug for PCT? Nolva, Clomid, or BOTH?

 

[Snooze]

There definitely are, but the info is so conflicting lol. If I can't get a good enough answer I guess I'll just take a small dose of each, but I'd hate for that to be a waste, or be worse than 1 of them by itself.

So guys - for PCT after you've been taking hcg and Aromasin during your cycle. What is the best drug for PCT? Nolva, Clomid, or BOTH?

Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs. Also Nolvadex will provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels. And nolvadex helps improve blood lipids and clomid decreases them..
I hate clomid. Stick with Nolvadex.
Save the dbol for next cycle.

as to your stats, I would think 500mg test would be more suited for you. And dont add the armidex until at least week 5. You need some estogen to grow.

 

[Deus ex machina]

IMO it is overkill on the AI's and HCG. At that level of TE, IMO nolva is all you need. Also wouldn't recommend HGH for a first cycle.

 

[dieselbuilder]

Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs. Also Nolvadex will provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels. And nolvadex helps improve blood lipids and clomid decreases them..
I hate clomid. Stick with Nolvadex.
Save the dbol for next cycle.

as to your stats, I would think 500mg test would be more suited for you. And dont add the armidex until at least week 5. You need some estogen to grow.

Alright cool. Thanks for the advice

 

[617ricky]

Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs. Also Nolvadex will provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels. And nolvadex helps improve blood lipids and clomid decreases them..
I hate clomid. Stick with Nolvadex.

Now if I'm taking a small dose of Aromasin during my cycle, should I continue it though PCT with the nolva?

 

[Researchstop]

Let's clear some stuff up.
Swale is a poor source for information. Nearly everything he learned about PCT he learned from CEM or AF discussion boards. Go to CEM and look up his posts from 5 years ago and see what n00b looks like.

On this cycle...

Do not use Nolva. For anything except priming for HCG (which you won't need). It only blocks estrogen in certain tissues so it won't help your prostate, high blood pressure, acne, mood swings, do I need ot go on? And it lowers IGF-1 and GH, yeah that's good during your cycle, NOT. Use Aromasin during the cycle AND PCT. Use 12.5mg/day and skip the Arimidex.

Nolva for PCT, wrong again. Nolva does NOT elicit an LH response. Clomid does.
What's LH? It's the hormone that's part of the hormone cascade telling your testes to start making Test again.

 

[jdchaffin]

Let's clear some stuff up.
Nolva for PCT, wrong again. Nolva does NOT elicit an LH response. Clomid does.
What's LH? It's the hormone that's part of the hormone cascade telling your testes to start making Test again.

Do you have access to the research on nolva not increasing LH?
I've heard that you only need nolva for so long I almost just assume its true. But you are always good at doing your homework and was wondering if you might post up that study so I could read it. Thanks.

 

[Researchstop]

Macro had this...

note this study below is in NON SUPPRESSED MALES (hence the test increase)


: Int J Androl. 1992 Feb;15(1):14-8.Links
Comment in:
Int J Androl. 1992 Dec;15(6):507-8.
Treatment of idiopathic oligozoospermia with tamoxifen--a randomized controlled study.
Krause W, Holland-Moritz H, Schramm P.
Department of Andrology, Philipps-Universitat, Marburg, Germany.

There is no conclusive evidence of the usefulness of tamoxifen in the treatment of idiopathic oligozoospermia (OAT-syndrome), as it has been used mostly in uncontrolled studies. We herein report on the controlled treatment of OAT-syndrome with tamoxifen versus placebo following a randomized design. Seventy-six men with sperm counts of 2-20 x 10(6) ml-1, sperm motility of 20-50%, and sperm morphology (abnormal cells) between 50 and 80% were involved in the study. Patients with varicocele, a history of testicular maldescent or genital inflammation were excluded. Thirty-nine patients received tamoxifen (30 mg daily), 37 patients placebo. There was a statistically significant increase in the mean serum testosterone level after treatment in the tamoxifen-treated group (from 4.9 +/- 1.9 to 7.9 +/- 3.6 ng ml-1) in comparison to the placebo group (5.3 +/- 2.0 and 5.6 +/- 2.0 ng ml-1). Serum FSH levels increased slightly in the tamoxifen group (from 6.8 +/- 4.1 to 7.3 +/- 4.8 mU ml-1), but this was not statistically significant in comparison to the placebo group (from 5.9 +/- 3.9 to 5.2 +/- 3.5 mU ml-1). Serum levels of LH did not show any differences between groups. The sperm count increased during treatment from 9.3 +/- 11.7 to 11.4 +/- 13.7 x 10(6) ml-1 in the tamoxifen group and from 9.1 +/- 7.1 to 9.3 +/- 8.8 x 10(6) ml-1 in the placebo group; this difference did not reach statistical significance. The percentage of motile and abnormal sperm was not different between the two treatment groups.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

 

[finah]

IMO it is overkill on the AI's and HCG. At that level of TE, IMO nolva is all you need. Also wouldn't recommend HGH for a first cycle.

+1

keep it simple 1st time around.