the PROTEIN DEBATE

[sammarbella]

P.S. Most noobs that start out using steroids, get advice from people like you to take in 400g of protein.

Where in my post i said that?

I'm only asking for % of people getting results from less than 100 grams of protein per day compared to more than 100 grams of protein per day.

I ask for PROVEN results not for "would have worked" results.

So they can never find out if 100g of protein per day would have worked just as well or equally for them.

Can i say that your "would have worked" is only a NOT PROVEN possibility on them?

Where are the Pro's taking less than 100 gr of protein daily ...apart than padilla/mentzer?

I can't find them.

 

[Putin]

Where in my post i said that?

I'm only asking for % of people getting results from less than 100 grams of protein per day compared to more than 100 grams of protein per day.

I ask for PROVEN results not for "would have worked" results.



Can i say that your "would have worked" is only a NOT PROVEN possibility on them?

Where are the Pro's taking less than 100 gr of protein daily ...apart than padilla/mentzer?

I can't find them.

You cant compare the pro's to the regular bodybuilder. And if you read all the posts on this thread, you'll have all the answers to your questions. Just do it.

 

[maldorf]

Nobody has addressed the issue of gluconeogenesis. When you take in more protein than your body needs to assimilate, the excess can be converted into glucose for energy. So its not like youre "pissing out" all that extra protein.

 

[Putin]

Nobody has addressed the issue of gluconeogenesis. When you take in more protein than your body needs to assimilate, the excess can be converted into glucose for energy. So its not like youre "pissing out" all that extra protein.

You're still pissing it out. My teacher actually printed me out some studies that were done way back, I was mostly about how much protein is consumed at one time and how much is excreted. I dont recall it correctly but I do remember that ..simply put, you piss some of it out. In double digit percentiles.

 

[tonka]

Nobody has addressed the issue of gluconeogenesis. When you take in more protein than your body needs to assimilate, the excess can be converted into glucose for energy. So its not like youre "pissing out" all that extra protein.

The excess can be converted into energy. Being that a person is consuming adequate carbohydrate then there would be no need for the body to go into gluconeogenesis. If someone is on a very low carb diet but high protein then the body could use that protein as energy.

 

[buselmo]

i don't know about you, but to me, if pissing out protein from excess intake makes sense, then pissing out carbs and fats from excess intake should be accepted also. but it's not. it gets stored as fat. From what i know, excess protein gets converted to glucose, and if not used, it gets stored as fat.
that's just my opinion, which is usually wrong

 

[Moen]

It's probably a straight linear curve between amount of drugs taken ( >>>> 'protein synthesis') and utilisation of ingested protein

That would make the most sense and actually make the only possible sense

No need to put kerosine in a standard gasoline engine

Stupid to put gasoline in a jet engine

 

[Putin]

It's probably a straight linear curve between amount of drugs taken ( >>>> 'protein synthesis') and utilisation of ingested protein

That would make the most sense and actually make the only possible sense

No need to put kerosine in a standard gasoline engine

Stupid to put gasoline in a jet engine

So what you're trying to say is.... we should not put gasoline in a jet engine??

 

[Koevoet]

You're still pissing it out. My teacher actually printed me out some studies that were done way back, I was mostly about how much protein is consumed at one time and how much is excreted. I dont recall it correctly but I do remember that ..simply put, you piss some of it out. In double digit percentiles.

If you are pissing out protein it is because you have a serious kidney disorder causing proteinuria. Healthy people do not piss out excess protein.

 

[littlemack]

Thanks for compiling those Koe.
I will book mark them for future use as "the high protein diet causes damage to kidney" statements are wrong and biased. What does damage the kidney is dehydration-and controlling that and BP is esential to kidney life.
Kidney disease is progressive and I am getting off topic here but again high protein diets DO NOT damage the kidneys.
Additionally, there is protein uria present after heavy intense exercise.
Been through the ringer with a 2 nephrologists about this and damaged kidneys etc all and have seen my own blood results and 24 hr tests differe greatly from an untrained or trained state.

Yes... Koevet and Massive and Dante are 100% correct!

 

[PowerEddie02]

If you are pissing out protein it is because you have a serious kidney disorder causing proteinuria. Healthy people do not piss out excess protein.

That's right - it's called nephrotic kidney disease. Damage to the glomeruli basement membrane disrupts the heparin sulfate charges that normally repel proteins from being filtered into the urine. One of the signs of nephrotic syndrome is edema due to disturbances in the osmotic forces from albumin loss.

 

[Putin]

If you are pissing out protein it is because you have a serious kidney disorder causing proteinuria. Healthy people do not piss out excess protein.

Stimulation of protein turnover by carbohydrate overfeeding in men

S. Welle, D. E. Matthews, R. G. Campbell and K. S. Nair
Endocrine-Metabolism Unit, Monroe Community Hospital, University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry 14603.

The effect of carbohydrate overfeeding on protein metabolism was studied in 11 healthy men. Total urinary nitrogen output during 10 days of carbohydrate overfeeding (1,600 extra kcal/day) decreased 27% relative to nitrogen excretion during 10 days of weight maintenance, indicating protein accretion during over-feeding. However, postabsorptive nitrogen excretion did not change, which means that the positive nitrogen balance associated with overfeeding results from enhanced postprandial nitrogen retention. Overfeeding reduced postabsorptive glucose concentrations 4 +/- 1% and increased glucose production rate 14 +/- 2% and glucose clearance 17 +/- 4%. Overfeeding increased plasma concentrations of insulin, glucagon, and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine approximately 20%. Alanine and branched-chain amino acid concentrations were increased after overfeeding, but serine, threonine, and asparagine concentrations were reduced. Postabsorptive leucine flux, which is an index of proteolysis, was measured using L-[1-13C]leucine as a tracer. Overfeeding increased leucine flux 13 +/- 2% compared with values after 10 days on a weight-maintenance diet. If it is assumed that overfeeding did not alter the fraction of 13CO2 not recovered in breath, there was no change in the portion of leucine flux that was oxidized. Thus the difference between flux and oxidation, which is a theoretical index of protein synthesis, increased 12 +/- 3% after overfeeding. These data suggest that excess caloric intake, without an increase in protein intake, stimulates post-absorptive proteolysis and protein synthesis.

 

[Koevoet]

I believe the study measured nitrogen output in the feces/urine after a 40g protein intake at one time. That's how they measured how much protein the body is actually using at one time.

So the answer to your question would be, yes they do, just as with excess vitamins.

I never asked a question, I stated a fact.

That study does not show that excess protein is excreted in the urine.

 

[54321]

I don't see much of a "happy medium" in this discussion. I'm no expert but definately can say I know what i'm doing. What I do is utilize a protein formula 1-1.5g per "LEAN" pound of Bodyweight. Which usually for most of US would mean somewhere around 175-250g protein per day. If we use protein to build muscle and if muscle burns fat to me it would be the obvious thing to do. A 250lb person in my opinion should not be taking in more than 250g of protein. even on "gear". We always forget about "Calories". If protien yields 4 calories per gram 300g of protien would be 1200 calories per day. On just protein. So now 1/4 of our daily calories are coming from jus protein alone. Dosen't leave much room for carbs and fats if you take in hyper amounts of protein. No wonder Energy levels would be low on such a High amount of protein. Also, its why IMO Bodybuilders put on so much bodyfat. Excess calories not used for energy is stored energy. Proteins are converted to amino acids (duuh) and that is ALL proteins. If our 300-400g protein is Lean protein counted only (like most of us do) we are getting even more "protein" in the form of incomplete protein bringing that total number even higher. Those are therefore used by the body as AMINO ACIDS via the liver as well. Remember, we eat protein for its amino acids; RIGHT? Alot of things are common sense but I think we just read too much. We almost read ourselves stupid. LOL
The whole kidney thing,(lol here we go with this again) I gotta say if you're healthy it wouldn't be a problem. If that were the case regular people eating @ outback and Red robin everyday would be losing kidneys daily. Sedentary people take in more Net protein than bodybuilders. You can take that to the bank. I went to lunch with my co-workers that smoke, and I order a steak and a potato and salad. They order chili cheese fries, double cheese burger, and mozzerella sticks for appetizer. No lie. They don't work out, and get this; THEY'RE WOMEN! EXCESS PROTEIN IS CONVERTED TO Amino Acids and Amino Acids in EXCESS ARE CONVERTED TO GLUCOSE AND STORED AS ENERGY (BODY FAT). "the GLUCOSE-ALANINE CYCLE" just my 2 pennies.

http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/amino-acid-metabolism.html

 

[dragonfire101]

the excess can be converted into glucose for energy.

If not used up it will be stored as fat.

Originally Posted by Massive G
Thanks for compiling those Koe.
I will book mark them for future use as "the high protein diet causes damage to kidney" statements are wrong and biased. What does damage the kidney is dehydration-and controlling that and BP is esential to kidney life.
Kidney disease is progressive and I am getting off topic here but again high protein diets DO NOT damage the kidneys.
Additionally, there is protein uria present after heavy intense exercise.
Been through the ringer with a 2 nephrologists about this and damaged kidneys etc all and have seen my own blood results and 24 hr tests differe greatly from an untrained or trained state.

This is true. I have had protein in my urine on severla ocassions with normal kidney function. My PCP has stated it is common kwoledge that this happens with persons who exercise alot. He says he sees it alot in H.S. atheletes all the time.

 

[finny]

Well, one thing I can say from my experience with high protein. I'm getting more gas and more trips to the washroom (loose stool as well). For about 4 weeks, I'm pretty much running pure cold isolate from true protein, and it didn't help any. Some days are better than others as far as gas, but frequent trips to the washroom continue.

It becomes anoying when I'm at work. I seem to be spending more and more time in the washroom.

I'm running 50% protein, 31% carbs, 19% fats - that's about 465g of protein. One day of the week, I started carbing up lately as well.

Next cycle, I might change things up a bit to see how I respond. High protein diet is very expensive for one thing.

 

[dragonfire101]

I'm getting more gas and more trips to the washroom (loose stool as well).

Try some digestive enzymes

 

[maldorf]

i don't know about you, but to me, if pissing out protein from excess intake makes sense, then pissing out carbs and fats from excess intake should be accepted also. but it's not. it gets stored as fat. From what i know, excess protein gets converted to glucose, and if not used, it gets stored as fat.
that's just my opinion, which is usually wrong

Gotta agree here. If you could eat all of that protein and just excrete much of it as waste, then eating a lot of protein rich foods in excess wouldnt lead to weight gain.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I always get a chuckle out of someone who finds 2-3 obscure studies on pubmed that substantiates what he personally believes in and champions it around as Fact, yet never mentions the endless thousands of mainstream known studies on pubmed that go directly against his view.

(I told myself I wasnt going to get into this debate yet once again, because its useless....so maybe I should just heed my own thoughts for once)

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showpost.php?p=234676&postcount=72

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Well, one thing I can say from my experience with high protein. I'm getting more gas and more trips to the washroom (loose stool as well). For about 4 weeks, I'm pretty much running pure cold isolate from true protein, and it didn't help any. Some days are better than others as far as gas, but frequent trips to the washroom continue.

It becomes anoying when I'm at work. I seem to be spending more and more time in the washroom.

I'm running 50% protein, 31% carbs, 19% fats - that's about 465g of protein. One day of the week, I started carbing up lately as well.

Next cycle, I might change things up a bit to see how I respond. High protein diet is very expensive for one thing.

a) you very well could have a food intolerance (garlic, onions, dairy, wheat, gluten, I could list so many things here)...but many people have food intolerances/allergies and they blame it on something else. And it can pretty much happen within a short period of time where you cannot eat a food that you regularly ate previously.

b) hope to god that your not one of those rare individuals who has whey intolerance. Rare but it does happen.