Thick blood

[maldorf]

Probably the gallons of EPO they use bro lol

Well, my point is that we have folks here showing research that says having hemoglobin up as high as 20 may not increase the risk of clots. So taking something like EPO then shouldn't increase your chances supposedly. We see cyclists getting clots though. Contradictory.

 

[maldorf]

So I was wondering whether EPO increased platelets and found this
Effects of erythropoietin on platelet reactivity and thrombopoiesis in humans | Blood Journal

"In summary, we showed that EPO markedly enhances platelet and endothelial activation in humans. Thus, we postulate that a patient-oriented approach to the use of EPO entails its administration not only to patients who are likely to respond to EPO but also to anemic patients, who additionally benefit from platelet activation. Whether heightened platelet reactivity and endothelial activation may increase the risk of thromboembolism warrants further investigation."

Here is another
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10366799

"A 10% to 20% increase in platelet counts was observed in both EPO groups on day 5. In the placebo group, platelets increased only several days after the first phlebotomy."

So that is interesting because the vast majority of us on TRT/AAS generally do not seem to get increased platelets. So wouldn't that mean the mechanism IS different between TRT/AAS and taking EPO?? I am not sure we face the same risks those cyclists did.

Great find here. This makes things more clear IMO. I think someone said that steroids increase the release of EPO?

 

[nothuman]

Yeah, dehydration would really compound things. The problem is that some of them have died in their sleep, so probably not dehydration. In fact I have read that many of them set an alarm every few hours so they can get up and move around, with the hopes that the movement will discourage clots from forming.

Im not sure the % breakdown on deaths from using EPO vs blood transfusions.

Imagine how crazy in the head you have to be to intentionally do something where you need to wake up every few hours to avoid death. And I thought we used to be crazy

 

[NEMSZ]

Well, my point is that we have folks here showing research that says having hemoglobin up as high as 20 may not increase the risk of clots. So taking something like EPO then shouldn't increase your chances supposedly. We see cyclists getting clots though. Contradictory.

I believe EPO also raises platelets as well, which is a contributing factor to clotting...

 

[XstarchildX]

I believe EPO also raises platelets as well, which is a contributing factor to clotting...

Correct. The study findings showed a direct correlation between the increase of EPO administration and an increase in platelet count. It was also stated that administration of AAS causes an initial spike in platelets but they eventually stabilize. Some very interesting data that I am surprised has not been investigated further, especially with the popularity of phlebotomy amongst the bodybuilding crowd.

 

[nothuman]

I believe EPO also raises platelets as well, which is a contributing factor to clotting...

Discussed on the previous page.

EPO raises platelets the first two weeks and then they go back down, which is apparently the same as TRT/AAS (which I was unaware of until yesterday).

Obviously this is bad news as none of us use EPO but we all use TRT/AAS.

That being said, Rex Feral stated that the mechanism is different, so I don't know what to think.

 

[XstarchildX]

Discussed on the previous page.

EPO raises platelets the first two weeks and then they go back down, which is apparently the same as TRT/AAS (which I was unaware of until yesterday).

Obviously this is bad news as none of us use EPO but we all use TRT/AAS.

That being said, Rex Feral stated that the mechanism is different, so I don't know what to think.

Another thing to consider, though anecdotal, is the fact that many bb'ers back in the 60's, 70's, 80's etc likely didn't donate blood at all and there were a lot less bodybuilding related deaths. Now a lot more guys are dropping like flies. Granted, there are a ton more mass monsters nowadays so it obviously can't be chalked up to one cause. Either way, I am not going to risk bottoming out my ferritin again, especially since the hematocrit and hemoglobin went right back to where it was prior to donation very quickly.

 

[NEMSZ]

Correct. The study findings showed a direct correlation between the increase of EPO administration and an increase in platelet count. It was also stated that administration of AAS causes an initial spike in platelets but they eventually stabilize. Some very interesting data that I am surprised has not been investigated further, especially with the popularity of phlebotomy amongst the bodybuilding crowd.

Discussed on the previous page.

EPO raises platelets the first two weeks and then they go back down, which is apparently the same as TRT/AAS (which I was unaware of until yesterday).

Obviously this is bad news as none of us use EPO but we all use TRT/AAS.

That being said, Rex Feral stated that the mechanism is different, so I don't know what to think.

Do the studies say how much of a spike with the platelets using TRT/AAS before they normalize??

I can’t imagine it would be anything detrimental if the person already has a low end platelet count...

 

[nothuman]

Another thing to consider, though anecdotal, is the fact that many bb'ers back in the 60's, 70's, 80's etc likely didn't donate blood at all and there were a lot less bodybuilding related deaths. Now a lot more guys are dropping like flies. Granted, there are a ton more mass monsters nowadays so it obviously can't be chalked up to one cause. Either way, I am not going to risk bottoming out my ferritin again, especially since the hematocrit and hemoglobin went right back to where it was prior to donation very quickly.

Rex made this point too and it's a really good one.

Do the studies say how much of a spike with the platelets using TRT/AAS before they normalize??

I can’t imagine it would be anything detrimental if the person already has a low end platelet count...

10-20% increase according to the study from the previous page in this thread

 

[maldorf]

I believe EPO also raises platelets as well, which is a contributing factor to clotting...

Yeah, that was in the research the guys posted. It said however that it was only raised high for the first two weeks I think, and then falls back some. Clots most probably happen then.

If steroids raise your epo, then the same thing happens with platelets, only since you take steroids EOD or at least several times a week I think then that the platelet levels wouldn't recede like they do after an EPO injection. They would stay elevated until you get off. I wonder if mine were all jacked up when I had my heart attack.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Yeah, that was in the research the guys posted. It said however that it was only raised high for the first two weeks I think, and then falls back some. Clots most probably happen then.

If steroids raise your epo, then the same thing happens with platelets, only since you take steroids EOD or at least several times a week I think then that the platelet levels wouldn't recede like they do after an EPO injection. They would stay elevated until you get off. I wonder if mine were all jacked up when I had my heart attack.

Platelet levels also normalize during chronic/prolonged EPO use, nut just after a single injection. AAS use leads to chronically elevated EPO levels, similar to when you inject (small amounts of) EPO every day.

Rarely have I ever seen elevated platelets in AAS users' bloodwork. An increase of 10% is barely noticeable in the first place, and most people don't get bloodwork 2 weeks into the cycle.

 

[maldorf]

Another thing to consider, though anecdotal, is the fact that many bb'ers back in the 60's, 70's, 80's etc likely didn't donate blood at all and there were a lot less bodybuilding related deaths. Now a lot more guys are dropping like flies. Granted, there are a ton more mass monsters nowadays so it obviously can't be chalked up to one cause. Either way, I am not going to risk bottoming out my ferritin again, especially since the hematocrit and hemoglobin went right back to where it was prior to donation very quickly.

Use back then wasn't nearly as high dose nor for such long stretches of time. They used to cycle on and off.

 

[maldorf]

Platelet levels also normalize during chronic/prolonged EPO use, nut just after a single injection. AAS use leads to chronically elevated EPO levels, similar to when you inject (small amounts of) EPO every day.

Rarely have I ever seen elevated platelets in AAS users' bloodwork. An increase of 10% is barely noticeable in the first place, and most people don't get bloodwork 2 weeks into the cycle.

Ok, I was wondering if that was the case. I don't know if it is just chance, but I had just started my cycle about 1 week prior to my heart attack. I had been cruising on about 250 mg/wk test and went up to 500 mg/wk test cyp and 200 mg tren. Maybe my platelets were up.

 

[Crazy_jay]

I have blood work where my hematocrit is 53.8 and my platelets were 213 with range of 150-379. I hadn't donated blood for at least 1.5 years when that was drawn, also ran a few cycles during that time. I havent donated for several years. I did when I first started using gear. Every time I donated, my hematocrit was always 52-53, only time I actually saw hematocrit under 50 was when I became iron deficient from donating blood because body cant properly make RBC's without iron. Only took one year of regularly donating to drain iron, never again.

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[maldorf]

I have blood work where my hematocrit is 53.8 and my platelets were 213 with range of 150-379. I hadn't donated blood for at least 1.5 years when that was drawn, also ran a few cycles during that time. I havent donated for several years. I did when I first started using gear. Every time I donated, my hematocrit was always 52-53, only time I actually saw hematocrit under 50 was when I became iron deficient from donating blood because body cant properly make RBC's without iron. Only took one year of regularly donating to drain iron, never again.

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How often did you donate, and how low did your hemoglobin/hematocrit get? I donate about 3 or 4 times a year and my iron stays level, doesn't drop at all. My platelets are also below normal level too, so a bit low.

 

[Crazy_jay]

How often did you donate, and how low did your hemoglobin/hematocrit get? I donate about 3 or 4 times a year and my iron stays level, doesn't drop at all. My platelets are also below normal level too, so a bit low.

I was donating double reds every 16 weeks. Not sure how low hematocrit would go after donation, never tested, but have read it only takes 4 weeks for RBC's to replace themselves. When I had iron deficiency and went to donate, it was 49.4, I was surprised it was under 50.

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[maldorf]

I was donating double reds every 16 weeks. Not sure how low hematocrit would go after donation, never tested, but have read it only takes 4 weeks for RBC's to replace themselves. When I had iron deficiency and went to donate, it was 49.4, I was surprised it was under 50.

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It is weird how different people's bodies can react to treatments. I get my phlebotomies about that often now, maybe a few more, and don't have an issue. In fact, we had to fight to get my iron down a bit because my hemoglobin level would jump up right back to about 18 within 1 month. I was getting 500 ml blood out once a month for over 1 year! Once he got my iron down a bit then my level came down so that now it doesn't get any higher than about 15.7 or so. It was so hard to get my iron down that I had to make sure to stop taking a multivitamin with iron in it. For some reason my body really holds a lot of Fe!

If you have problems with low iron then you could take some iron supplements. Even just a daily multi might be enough. Once I stopped taking mine I was able to get my iron down. I now take a senior's multi because those don't have iron. Does anyone know why Senior's Multivitamins don't have iron!?

 

[nothuman]

It is weird how different people's bodies can react to treatments. I get my phlebotomies about that often now, maybe a few more, and don't have an issue. In fact, we had to fight to get my iron down a bit because my hemoglobin level would jump up right back to about 18 within 1 month. I was getting 500 ml blood out once a month for over 1 year! Once he got my iron down a bit then my level came down so that now it doesn't get any higher than about 15.7 or so. It was so hard to get my iron down that I had to make sure to stop taking a multivitamin with iron in it. For some reason my body really holds a lot of Fe!

If you have problems with low iron then you could take some iron supplements. Even just a daily multi might be enough. Once I stopped taking mine I was able to get my iron down. I now take a senior's multi because those don't have iron. Does anyone know why Senior's Multivitamins don't have iron!?

If someone really wants to get ferritin up fast, ferrous sulfate does the job

 

[Crazy_jay]

It is weird how different people's bodies can react to treatments. I get my phlebotomies about that often now, maybe a few more, and don't have an issue. In fact, we had to fight to get my iron down a bit because my hemoglobin level would jump up right back to about 18 within 1 month. I was getting 500 ml blood out once a month for over 1 year! Once he got my iron down a bit then my level came down so that now it doesn't get any higher than about 15.7 or so. It was so hard to get my iron down that I had to make sure to stop taking a multivitamin with iron in it. For some reason my body really holds a lot of Fe!

If you have problems with low iron then you could take some iron supplements. Even just a daily multi might be enough. Once I stopped taking mine I was able to get my iron down. I now take a senior's multi because those don't have iron. Does anyone know why Senior's Multivitamins don't have iron!?

I had to supplement iron to get ferritin back up. My ferritin was at 14 and healthy is supposed to be around 100. I used a product with heme iron as absorption is way better. Took better part of year to bring up ferritin levels but not drive hematocrit to high from iron supplementation. The multivitamin I take doesnt have iron in it. I've taken a few that do and the iron in them tends to upset my stomach.

I also cook with a cast iron skillet now. For those that don't know, cooking with cast iron increases iron levels in food.

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[Black Beard]

It is weird how different people's bodies can react to treatments. I get my phlebotomies about that often now, maybe a few more, and don't have an issue. In fact, we had to fight to get my iron down a bit because my hemoglobin level would jump up right back to about 18 within 1 month. I was getting 500 ml blood out once a month for over 1 year! Once he got my iron down a bit then my level came down so that now it doesn't get any higher than about 15.7 or so. It was so hard to get my iron down that I had to make sure to stop taking a multivitamin with iron in it. For some reason my body really holds a lot of Fe!

If you have problems with low iron then you could take some iron supplements. Even just a daily multi might be enough. Once I stopped taking mine I was able to get my iron down. I now take a senior's multi because those don't have iron. Does anyone know why Senior's Multivitamins don't have iron!?

Double reds are brutal. Never again, killed my endurance for months.

If someone really wants to get ferritin up fast, ferrous sulfate does the job

Ferrous sulfate is an iron sulfate salt. It's cheap and the go-to for iron supplementation. Avoid calcium and add vitamin C for increased absorption. It's the iron given to most people for anemia and found in cereals, fortified foods.


Iron biglycinate has higher bioavailability and much easier on the stomach.