One can make anything look good on paper, but where are the real world results in terms of bbing? Where are the physiques of these 10x3 disciples? I clicked on the link in your post and looked at the member gallery on that page and couldn't find one single impressive physique. On the other hand look at something like DC training and look at all the real world results, impressive physiques, and great gains people have made.
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Think about this one
- Thread starter PHIL HERNON
- Start date
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- Messages
- 208
spud could dunk when he was in 9th grade, he wasn't doing any plyometric work then. he may have as his career went on but not in high school.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2005
- Messages
- 111
Vander_V said:The twin that trains to failure will have the dominant physique regarding mucle mass he will also have a lower BF% ,
That was easy
Vander were ya been? We could have ended this 8 pages ago.
MM
Remos
this is going to be my last post on this
where are the real world results? are you kidding me? this method is used all over the world and by alot of strength coaches. I'm no chad waterbury ass kisser and i don't even go to that site all the time but he does make some very good points. i sure have seen some pretty good transformantions even on that site with that method. guys who defiteatly look like steroid users but are natural. there are alot of goof balls over there though. your basing what i'v said off of a few pictures you've clicked on? did you see the 21 year old Christian Tibadua is prepping? hes huge.
lou simmons even recommends similar protocols.
Spudd Webb did perform plyomtrics
My nieghbor has gained 45 lbs of LBM in about 8 months naturally
I don't want to critique other peoples training methods. But I will say that Mike Mentzer and Dorian training works a whole lot better when you stack it with a gram of Test and pop a bunch of Ampedimines and eat 5k a day. as far as where are the real life bodybuilders? lots of great natural bodybuilders train like this but you mainly only hear about the top pro athletes. However, Go to Art Atwood's site and his training is very similar. How do you really know how all these pros are training anyway? just like phil doens't talk about what he does b/c he trains people for money maybe they do to? most of the articles you read are ghost written. Lets not forget that Ronnie Coleman Trains every muscle ATLEAST 2 times per week. He always trains very heavy but pulls up before failure on almost every set. are these good examples of current bodybuilders? I've also heard that Markus Ruhul follows the High Tensions, Minimun CNS fatigue methods with very high volume although he does only work a muscle roughly once per week. Why did he not train like that in his video? because it wouldn't sale. I hear people say don't buy Flex wheelers video b/c he trains like a pussy. People want to be entertained with those things so thats what these guys give them. So people will buy them. IE the popularity of Dorian Yates video. the VAST majority of the old school bodybuilders used concepts i've discussed. I will refrain from naming all of them just to not be a prick about it. Nothing i'm saying is anything revolutionary or new. Similar methods have been used with success in the past. and nothing i'm saying is of my own research, its all things that have been used by strenght coaches and athletes and proven to work.
this is the only picture i have on my computer. This is my 17 yr old brother winning a weight lifting contest for local high school football teams. 340 lbs on the bar in this pic and a bodyweight of about 175, he is currently about 180 and benches 375 and looks very developed with his shirt of as well with absolutely no special diet.
this is going to be my last post on this
where are the real world results? are you kidding me? this method is used all over the world and by alot of strength coaches. I'm no chad waterbury ass kisser and i don't even go to that site all the time but he does make some very good points. i sure have seen some pretty good transformantions even on that site with that method. guys who defiteatly look like steroid users but are natural. there are alot of goof balls over there though. your basing what i'v said off of a few pictures you've clicked on?
did you see the 21 year old Christian Tibadua is prepping? hes huge.lou simmons even recommends similar protocols.
Spudd Webb did perform plyomtrics
My nieghbor has gained 45 lbs of LBM in about 8 months naturally
I don't want to critique other peoples training methods. But I will say that Mike Mentzer and Dorian training works a whole lot better when you stack it with a gram of Test and pop a bunch of Ampedimines and eat 5k a day. as far as where are the real life bodybuilders? lots of great natural bodybuilders train like this but you mainly only hear about the top pro athletes. However, Go to Art Atwood's site and his training is very similar. How do you really know how all these pros are training anyway? just like phil doens't talk about what he does b/c he trains people for money maybe they do to? most of the articles you read are ghost written. Lets not forget that Ronnie Coleman Trains every muscle ATLEAST 2 times per week. He always trains very heavy but pulls up before failure on almost every set. are these good examples of current bodybuilders? I've also heard that Markus Ruhul follows the High Tensions, Minimun CNS fatigue methods with very high volume although he does only work a muscle roughly once per week. Why did he not train like that in his video? because it wouldn't sale. I hear people say don't buy Flex wheelers video b/c he trains like a pussy. People want to be entertained with those things so thats what these guys give them. So people will buy them. IE the popularity of Dorian Yates video. the VAST majority of the old school bodybuilders used concepts i've discussed. I will refrain from naming all of them just to not be a prick about it. Nothing i'm saying is anything revolutionary or new. Similar methods have been used with success in the past. and nothing i'm saying is of my own research, its all things that have been used by strenght coaches and athletes and proven to work.
this is the only picture i have on my computer. This is my 17 yr old brother winning a weight lifting contest for local high school football teams. 340 lbs on the bar in this pic and a bodyweight of about 175, he is currently about 180 and benches 375 and looks very developed with his shirt of as well with absolutely no special diet.
Attachments
Last edited:
Art Atwood
check out AAs home page
http://www.artatwood.com/
information to get you growing fast
First, some basic principals that I always follow to keep my growth constant:
Set your goals & make them specific. Do you want to be 225lbs @5% body fat or do you just want to gain 25lbs of mass in 4 months? Also, make a deadline by when you want your goal accomplished.
.
Train your body to the edge using different training variables(rest periods, # of repetitions, # of sets, order of exercises, speed of the movement, supersets, forced reps, modified compound sets). *By constantly changing these training variables you should never hit a plateau.
.
Learn what is working the best for you (higher or lower reps, more or less sets, training a muscle group 2 or 3 times per week). *For example, If I train arms 3 times per week I can see a greater visual change and a measurable change as compared to twice per week.
.
Recover, recover, recover. Your training should be intense therefore we need to really focus on recovery. Some people don't train hard enough so they don't have to worry about recovering. Those are the guys in the gym who look the same as they did 4 years earlier. (rest, food, supplements)-Massage is also a great recovery tool. Also, eat tons of protein!
.
Keep changing approach until you grow. Don't wait 3 months of doing the same thing to see change. You should know if something is working within 2 to 4 weeks, depending how "in tune" you are with your body. CHANGE YOUR WORKOUTS EVERY 3 WEEKS.
.
Don't take time off. This sounds funny, but it is true. You don't need more than 2 days off in a row. Only if you are sick should you not workout. If you start to over train, cut back your time in the gym and the # of sets. You don't need to take 2 weeks off. You'll just shrink.
.
Weight training workouts should not take more than one hour. Testosterone levels, intensity levels, and recovery levels are greatly reduced when you train longer than one hour. If possible, train twice per day at 45 minutes each workout.
These are just basic rules that I follow. They have worked extremely well for me over the last 10 years.
Basic workout
Week one
DAY 1
5 SETS OF CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 2
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 3
5 SETS OF MID CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 4
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 5
5 SETS OF UPPER CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
Week two
DAY 1
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 2
5 SETS OF CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 3
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 4
5 SETS OF CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 5
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
Rest periods
For the first 2 weeks you should rest 90 to 120 seconds between sets. It may seem like a lot of time to rest, but each set should be to failure.
Number of repetitions
DAYS 1 & 2 10-12 REPETITIONS
DAYS 3 & 4 8-10 REPETITIONS
DAY 5 6 - 8 REPETITIONS
How many exercises per body part?
For now, just one exercise per body part on each day. This seems almost too simple, but that is the point. .
Which exercises to do:
I stick with free weights and cables for 90% of my workouts. They seem to provide better neuro-muscular stimulation. Also more muscles are involved, thereby getting a broader stimulation effect.
Generally, I choose more dumbell work on higher rep days(10-12) and more barbell movements on the lower rep days(6-10)
DAYS 1 & 2
UPPER CHEST: incline dumbell press
.
BACK: seated rows with a cable, or lat pull downs, or one arm dumbell rows
.
BICEPS: incline dumbell curls, or preacher bench barbell curls
.
CALVES: standing heel raises(with machine)
.
DELTS: seated dumbell press, or lateral raises
.
TRIS: skull crushers(lying tricep presses with ezcurl bar), or overhead rope extensions, or tricep pull downs with cable.
.
QUADS: leg press, or hack squat
.
HAMS: lying leg curls, or seated leg curls
.
TRAPS: dumbell shrugs(straight up and squeeze and back down to feel a good stretch, don't rotate shouldercuff)
DAYS 3, 4 & 5
UPPER CHEST: incline barbell press
.
BACK: bentover barbell rows(underhand grip and sometimes overhand grip) or T-bar rows.
.
BICEPS: Barbell curls. Hammer curls and reverse curls are for later.
.
CALVES: calf presses on leg press. (focus on form)
.
DELTS: Barbell presses to the front. or Heavy lateral raises
.
TRIS: close grip bench presses(I prefer the smith machine) or heavy tricep push downs with a cambered bar on the pulleys.
.
QUADS: barbell squats, or heavy leg press
.
HAMS: stiff-leg dead lifts with barbell,(be careful of lower back and don't go heavy(focus on keeping lower back straight and feeling the stretch in the hamstrings) or heavy lying down leg curls.
.
TRAPS: barbell shrugs in front of body with straps(if needed)
.
MIDCHEST: Barbell bench presses or heavy dumbell presses on flat bench
for now you are only doing 2-5 sets per body part. try to go to failure on the last repetition. For example: when performing bench press for 8-10 repetitions, you should not be able to get an eleventh rep. You probably will get the 8th rep on your own but the 9th rep you would need a little help. This is how you determine the weight you are going to use for that exercise. If you got 10 reps move up in weight, if you only got 6 or 7 reps, go a little lighter.
i read an interview with him about failure and he used it very selectively, and his defintion was not what alot people's is
Cardiovascular
I usually do 20 to 30 minutes after the weights 3 times per week. It really shouldn't be exhausting. Just keep the blood flowing. I usually do the bike twice, and the precor or stair climber once.
Abs
I hit abs 3 times per week. 4 sets of overhead rope crunches and 2 sets of hanging leg raises. Don't do abs and calves everyday, they need rest and recovery also in order to grow.
check out AAs home page
http://www.artatwood.com/
information to get you growing fast
First, some basic principals that I always follow to keep my growth constant:
Set your goals & make them specific. Do you want to be 225lbs @5% body fat or do you just want to gain 25lbs of mass in 4 months? Also, make a deadline by when you want your goal accomplished.
.
Train your body to the edge using different training variables(rest periods, # of repetitions, # of sets, order of exercises, speed of the movement, supersets, forced reps, modified compound sets). *By constantly changing these training variables you should never hit a plateau.
.
Learn what is working the best for you (higher or lower reps, more or less sets, training a muscle group 2 or 3 times per week). *For example, If I train arms 3 times per week I can see a greater visual change and a measurable change as compared to twice per week.
.
Recover, recover, recover. Your training should be intense therefore we need to really focus on recovery. Some people don't train hard enough so they don't have to worry about recovering. Those are the guys in the gym who look the same as they did 4 years earlier. (rest, food, supplements)-Massage is also a great recovery tool. Also, eat tons of protein!
.
Keep changing approach until you grow. Don't wait 3 months of doing the same thing to see change. You should know if something is working within 2 to 4 weeks, depending how "in tune" you are with your body. CHANGE YOUR WORKOUTS EVERY 3 WEEKS.
.
Don't take time off. This sounds funny, but it is true. You don't need more than 2 days off in a row. Only if you are sick should you not workout. If you start to over train, cut back your time in the gym and the # of sets. You don't need to take 2 weeks off. You'll just shrink.
.
Weight training workouts should not take more than one hour. Testosterone levels, intensity levels, and recovery levels are greatly reduced when you train longer than one hour. If possible, train twice per day at 45 minutes each workout.
These are just basic rules that I follow. They have worked extremely well for me over the last 10 years.
Basic workout
Week one
DAY 1
5 SETS OF CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 2
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 3
5 SETS OF MID CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 4
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 5
5 SETS OF UPPER CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
Week two
DAY 1
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 2
5 SETS OF CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 3
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
DAY 4
5 SETS OF CHEST
5 SETS OF BACK
5 SETS OF BICEPS
5 SETS OF CALVES
DAY 5
5 SETS OF DELTS
5 SETS OF TRIS
5 SETS OF QUADS
2 SETS OF HAMS
2 SETS OF TRAPS
Rest periods
For the first 2 weeks you should rest 90 to 120 seconds between sets. It may seem like a lot of time to rest, but each set should be to failure.
Number of repetitions
DAYS 1 & 2 10-12 REPETITIONS
DAYS 3 & 4 8-10 REPETITIONS
DAY 5 6 - 8 REPETITIONS
How many exercises per body part?
For now, just one exercise per body part on each day. This seems almost too simple, but that is the point. .
Which exercises to do:
I stick with free weights and cables for 90% of my workouts. They seem to provide better neuro-muscular stimulation. Also more muscles are involved, thereby getting a broader stimulation effect.
Generally, I choose more dumbell work on higher rep days(10-12) and more barbell movements on the lower rep days(6-10)
DAYS 1 & 2
UPPER CHEST: incline dumbell press
.
BACK: seated rows with a cable, or lat pull downs, or one arm dumbell rows
.
BICEPS: incline dumbell curls, or preacher bench barbell curls
.
CALVES: standing heel raises(with machine)
.
DELTS: seated dumbell press, or lateral raises
.
TRIS: skull crushers(lying tricep presses with ezcurl bar), or overhead rope extensions, or tricep pull downs with cable.
.
QUADS: leg press, or hack squat
.
HAMS: lying leg curls, or seated leg curls
.
TRAPS: dumbell shrugs(straight up and squeeze and back down to feel a good stretch, don't rotate shouldercuff)
DAYS 3, 4 & 5
UPPER CHEST: incline barbell press
.
BACK: bentover barbell rows(underhand grip and sometimes overhand grip) or T-bar rows.
.
BICEPS: Barbell curls. Hammer curls and reverse curls are for later.
.
CALVES: calf presses on leg press. (focus on form)
.
DELTS: Barbell presses to the front. or Heavy lateral raises
.
TRIS: close grip bench presses(I prefer the smith machine) or heavy tricep push downs with a cambered bar on the pulleys.
.
QUADS: barbell squats, or heavy leg press
.
HAMS: stiff-leg dead lifts with barbell,(be careful of lower back and don't go heavy(focus on keeping lower back straight and feeling the stretch in the hamstrings) or heavy lying down leg curls.
.
TRAPS: barbell shrugs in front of body with straps(if needed)
.
MIDCHEST: Barbell bench presses or heavy dumbell presses on flat bench
for now you are only doing 2-5 sets per body part. try to go to failure on the last repetition. For example: when performing bench press for 8-10 repetitions, you should not be able to get an eleventh rep. You probably will get the 8th rep on your own but the 9th rep you would need a little help. This is how you determine the weight you are going to use for that exercise. If you got 10 reps move up in weight, if you only got 6 or 7 reps, go a little lighter.
i read an interview with him about failure and he used it very selectively, and his defintion was not what alot people's is
Cardiovascular
I usually do 20 to 30 minutes after the weights 3 times per week. It really shouldn't be exhausting. Just keep the blood flowing. I usually do the bike twice, and the precor or stair climber once.
Abs
I hit abs 3 times per week. 4 sets of overhead rope crunches and 2 sets of hanging leg raises. Don't do abs and calves everyday, they need rest and recovery also in order to grow.
PHIL HERNON
Banned
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2002
- Messages
- 14,932
CONAN
The kid spotting your brothjer has a Geneva shirt on. Who is that guy? I live in Geneva.
The kid spotting your brothjer has a Geneva shirt on. Who is that guy? I live in Geneva.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2005
- Messages
- 111
PHIL HERNON said:
Phil ,I was supposed to go to the water spray park in Geneva for a Guatemalen adoption picnic. Good thing i did not go with all the Bacteria and the people getting sick.
I live outside Rochester (Greece NY). I love your outlet mall.
MM
PHIL HERNON
Banned
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2002
- Messages
- 14,932
Yes
We are on CNN, yahoo news, all over the place with all those people getting sick. Stop by the gym next time you are here.
MassMachine said:
We are on CNN, yahoo news, all over the place with all those people getting sick. Stop by the gym next time you are here.
i have always trained to failure... but lately i have been thinking...
if you add 50-100lbs on all your main lifts, you will be bigger.
and, you dont have to train to failure to get stronger...
so doesnt that say that you dont need to train to failure to build muscle? and when you dont train to failure you can train more freqvently and therefor gain faster. So wouldnt the best method be high freqvent training with progressive weights not to failure be the best style?
if you add 50-100lbs on all your main lifts, you will be bigger.
and, you dont have to train to failure to get stronger...
so doesnt that say that you dont need to train to failure to build muscle? and when you dont train to failure you can train more freqvently and therefor gain faster. So wouldnt the best method be high freqvent training with progressive weights not to failure be the best style?
Louie Simmons and WSB DE training days are nothing like that 10x3@80% you posted, I have personally trained there. Again this is BBING what does it matter what strength coaches are doing it's two different worlds, I used to be a powerlifter. Your brother basically doubled his bodyweight at 17 thats good, but what does that have to do with BBING?
L simmons does recomend this method for athletes who are wishing to gain size along with their strenght. He uses these types of protocols to increase muscle size if a lifter is too small but have strenght along with their size increase. He uses high tension, fatigue management protocols to prep lifters who need to gaine wieght.
his actual methods do include less total volume b/c his lifters are training with percentages greater than 85 to 90 % of their 1RM. they are actually training with 100 % of their 1 RM or higher every week. They very high %s demands a lower volume and things always have to be switched to avoid over training. a lifter should not train with %s greater than 80 to 85% but some of these strenght coaches have developed methods to train at these super hight intensities (PERCENTAGES of 1RM) and manage to avoid over training to achieve super fast strenght gains. lets not forget these programs also involve bands that provide a massive amount of extra muscular fatigue from the rebound effect created by the bands. so volume will also have to be reduced a lil bit b/c of this.
Do some reading on what L. Simmons thinks of "low Set" HIT training programs.
L. Simmons methods actually were not thought up on his own. He developed his methods based off Eastern Periodization muscular research. He took things he read out of the book Super Training, etc., and devised a system based on principles that other coaches had already layed out. if you read through my posts Super Training was a book I recommended to look into.
The point about my brother, is that you asked for real life examples, so i shows you a picture. He is 180 ish. and his chest developement is that of a 200 lb contest weight adult male bodybuilder. So the correlation to his bench press strenght and chest size is definatley there. all accomplished with no "massive eating" program. just an occasional protein shake from vitamin World.
his actual methods do include less total volume b/c his lifters are training with percentages greater than 85 to 90 % of their 1RM. they are actually training with 100 % of their 1 RM or higher every week. They very high %s demands a lower volume and things always have to be switched to avoid over training. a lifter should not train with %s greater than 80 to 85% but some of these strenght coaches have developed methods to train at these super hight intensities (PERCENTAGES of 1RM) and manage to avoid over training to achieve super fast strenght gains. lets not forget these programs also involve bands that provide a massive amount of extra muscular fatigue from the rebound effect created by the bands. so volume will also have to be reduced a lil bit b/c of this.
Do some reading on what L. Simmons thinks of "low Set" HIT training programs.
L. Simmons methods actually were not thought up on his own. He developed his methods based off Eastern Periodization muscular research. He took things he read out of the book Super Training, etc., and devised a system based on principles that other coaches had already layed out. if you read through my posts Super Training was a book I recommended to look into.
The point about my brother, is that you asked for real life examples, so i shows you a picture. He is 180 ish. and his chest developement is that of a 200 lb contest weight adult male bodybuilder. So the correlation to his bench press strenght and chest size is definatley there. all accomplished with no "massive eating" program. just an occasional protein shake from vitamin World.
Last edited:
WTF how are you going to explain WS to me when I have trained there! I will say again Louie Simmons and WSB DE training days ARE NOTHING LIKE THAT 10x3@80%..... for the DE bench day your looking at 8x3@60% and for the DE squat its is 10x2@50%. As for your assertion that his actual methods include less total volume YOU COULDN'T BE MORE INCORRECT. A sample ME day would look like this............
This is from Dave Tate and is a basic WSB routine for someone just getting into that type of training.
Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Mornings: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max.
Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps. Stress the eccentric, try to get a four count on they way down.
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps
Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15 reps
And again this has nothing to do with BBING! I've trained at WSB, I used to be a powerlifter it is in my opinion the best training method for those whose #1 concern is strength. It has nothing to do with BBING!
This is from Dave Tate and is a basic WSB routine for someone just getting into that type of training.
Day 1 (max effort squat day)
Good Mornings: warm up doing sets of three reps until you feel that you can no longer perform three reps. At this point drop the reps to one and continuing working up to a one rep max.
Glute Ham Raises: 3 sets of 10 reps. Stress the eccentric, try to get a four count on they way down.
Reverse Hypers: 3 sets of 8 reps using the small strap
Pull Down Abs: 5 sets of 10 to 15 reps
Straight Leg Raises: 5 sets of 15 reps
And again this has nothing to do with BBING! I've trained at WSB, I used to be a powerlifter it is in my opinion the best training method for those whose #1 concern is strength. It has nothing to do with BBING!
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2005
- Messages
- 139
Remos pl ,
although you are 100% correct aout Louie's real programmes (i'd say as time passes the percentages are even smaller for explosive days with even more band tension) i think
i'll disagree about one thing.
Mass is mass and if heavy,explosive basic work does it for Coleman,then WSB methond could help a bodybuilder too.
I really believe that explosive reps at smaller percentages with added band tension is extremely good for building mass,quality mass that is if the diet is in check.
I think Mike Francios was trained for BBing by Louie Simmons with these methods (at that time band tension was less with more barbell weight) with great success.
This heavy training coupled with submaximal explosive training is one of the best methods out there,a great tool for building mass no matter the sport.
although you are 100% correct aout Louie's real programmes (i'd say as time passes the percentages are even smaller for explosive days with even more band tension) i think
i'll disagree about one thing.
Mass is mass and if heavy,explosive basic work does it for Coleman,then WSB methond could help a bodybuilder too.
I really believe that explosive reps at smaller percentages with added band tension is extremely good for building mass,quality mass that is if the diet is in check.
I think Mike Francios was trained for BBing by Louie Simmons with these methods (at that time band tension was less with more barbell weight) with great success.
This heavy training coupled with submaximal explosive training is one of the best methods out there,a great tool for building mass no matter the sport.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2003
- Messages
- 208
thanks for the posts on this thread, i really enjoy seeing different viewpoints from people who really know training.
its rare to have a debate like this without people going off on each other, but this thread has been pretty good so far. thanks for sharing conan21, interesting reading at the very least.
its rare to have a debate like this without people going off on each other, but this thread has been pretty good so far. thanks for sharing conan21, interesting reading at the very least.
Why are you getting Upset Remos? and why are u swearing?
your comparing what i'm saying to the West Side Barbell Dynamic effort Method?
that is a method used to build bar speed and acceleration.
You may have "followed" a wsbb routine for awhile but i doubt you understood the conepts behind it. You seem to have no comprehension on what different instensity zones do to the body and how volume is used with each intensity zone.
You said on ME day you are bulding up to a MAX. I agreed with you when i said the lifters are using %s greater than 90%. Since they are maxing out (they are using 100%. or more) on a weekly basis.
again. I was talkin about a method Simmons would recommend for a skinny bastard who needs to gain weight. not a training protocol of his actual program. LOL.
Let me let you in on a lil secret. bodybuilding and powerlifting are not all that different. They don't require entirely different forms of thinking like you are making it out to be.
listen to these interviews. it covers some of the things i've talked about
L.Simmons
http://www.sdtalk.com/archive.asp?aid=2080
(listen to all 3 segments)
Here is one interview by him talkin about bodybuilding.
**broken link removed**
while your at it. go to T-nation and listen the Double Tap interview with Chad Waturbury. and how he lays it out plain as day with the High Tension Fatigue management protocols. (10x3). its near the upper left hand corner
http://www.t-nation.com/
and lastly here is an article (From L. Simmons website) about HIT training made popular by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer and how poor of a program it is.
http://westside-barbell.com/articles.htm
(read the article called HIT or MISS)
i believe this is similar to what you where advising a good method of training was. Doing 1 max set of 6 squats.
and finally, read this book. It is what alot of West side Barbell is based off of. This book also includes Hypertrophy protocols and covers it pretty thouroughly, and after you read it i want you to site for me the chapter and page where it recomends 1 set or (low sets) performed to failure is the best way to gain hypertrophy. or atleast show me where it discusses failure training being a reqcuirment or optimal for muscle growth.
**broken link removed**
this one wouldn't hurt either
**broken link removed**
these are two of the most highly reguarded books in the world on the topic of weight training.
I've been laying out a decent amount of information on the table here and all you are doing is disagreeing. Which is fine.
But i don't even see an attempt or any form of rational thinking on your part to even back what you have been supporting.
your comparing what i'm saying to the West Side Barbell Dynamic effort Method?
that is a method used to build bar speed and acceleration.
You may have "followed" a wsbb routine for awhile but i doubt you understood the conepts behind it. You seem to have no comprehension on what different instensity zones do to the body and how volume is used with each intensity zone.
You said on ME day you are bulding up to a MAX. I agreed with you when i said the lifters are using %s greater than 90%. Since they are maxing out (they are using 100%. or more)
on a weekly basis.again. I was talkin about a method Simmons would recommend for a skinny bastard who needs to gain weight. not a training protocol of his actual program. LOL.
Let me let you in on a lil secret. bodybuilding and powerlifting are not all that different. They don't require entirely different forms of thinking like you are making it out to be.
listen to these interviews. it covers some of the things i've talked about
L.Simmons
http://www.sdtalk.com/archive.asp?aid=2080
(listen to all 3 segments)
Here is one interview by him talkin about bodybuilding.
**broken link removed**
while your at it. go to T-nation and listen the Double Tap interview with Chad Waturbury. and how he lays it out plain as day with the High Tension Fatigue management protocols. (10x3). its near the upper left hand corner
http://www.t-nation.com/
and lastly here is an article (From L. Simmons website) about HIT training made popular by Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer and how poor of a program it is.
http://westside-barbell.com/articles.htm
(read the article called HIT or MISS)
i believe this is similar to what you where advising a good method of training was. Doing 1 max set of 6 squats.
and finally, read this book. It is what alot of West side Barbell is based off of. This book also includes Hypertrophy protocols and covers it pretty thouroughly, and after you read it i want you to site for me the chapter and page where it recomends 1 set or (low sets) performed to failure is the best way to gain hypertrophy. or atleast show me where it discusses failure training being a reqcuirment or optimal for muscle growth.
**broken link removed**
this one wouldn't hurt either
**broken link removed**
these are two of the most highly reguarded books in the world on the topic of weight training.
I've been laying out a decent amount of information on the table here and all you are doing is disagreeing. Which is fine.
But i don't even see an attempt or any form of rational thinking on your part to even back what you have been supporting.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2005
- Messages
- 111
The thing is why argue over this. Everyone has their own opinion. If any of this was set in stone everyone would be doing the same workouts and would be huge. Thier would be no debate. Thier are many great physiques on this board alone all reaching them with different training methods all reaching the same goal. Some using 1 set for failure,3x10,10x3,4x12,8x8,6x6,5x5 ect.
The main thing is cosistancy and progression no matter what the routine is.
Genetics are the main reason that these fantastic physiques are built. Its not the routine they use the drugs and supplements they take ,the high levels of protien they digest.
All this crap is what keeps the Machine churning. The truth is simple yet it would put a lot of people out of work.
Genetics-Excess Calories-Heavy Progressive Training-Rest-Supplementation.
Now pre contest diet is where it gets complex and i feel is the only real area that someone would need an experienced coach.
Me and my brother have been training for 20 yrs together. We used the same routines(million of them) same diets same supps ect.
Im 39 5'8" 235 he is 37 5'9" 215.
I have the better genetics even though we have done everything the same.
MM
The main thing is cosistancy and progression no matter what the routine is.
Genetics are the main reason that these fantastic physiques are built. Its not the routine they use the drugs and supplements they take ,the high levels of protien they digest.
All this crap is what keeps the Machine churning. The truth is simple yet it would put a lot of people out of work.
Genetics-Excess Calories-Heavy Progressive Training-Rest-Supplementation.
Now pre contest diet is where it gets complex and i feel is the only real area that someone would need an experienced coach.
Me and my brother have been training for 20 yrs together. We used the same routines(million of them) same diets same supps ect.
Im 39 5'8" 235 he is 37 5'9" 215.
I have the better genetics even though we have done everything the same.
MM
My rational thinking is I want to see the results not just a bunch of scientific mumbo jumbo. Take Louie Simmons and WS training........it has produced countless elite level powerlifters. Take something like DC training for BBING........look at some of the before and after pictures of these people who followed that program, the results are fantastic.
Now take a lot at this guy you are slurping http://www.chadwaterbury.com/
His physique sucks he couldn't win a decent local BBING show. Has he ever competed in a powerlifting meet, what is his total? Where are the results?
Terrific he has a B.S. in human biology and physical science, I have an MBA I could go ahead and right all the fancy articles I wish about creating new business models, but I'm 100% certain people would have much more success if they listened to Warren Buffet instead of me.
Now take a lot at this guy you are slurping http://www.chadwaterbury.com/
His physique sucks he couldn't win a decent local BBING show. Has he ever competed in a powerlifting meet, what is his total? Where are the results?
Terrific he has a B.S. in human biology and physical science, I have an MBA I could go ahead and right all the fancy articles I wish about creating new business models, but I'm 100% certain people would have much more success if they listened to Warren Buffet instead of me.
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