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This board wont believe it but people around him says he is lifetime natural. More power to him.

I think people drastically overestimate the amount of NFL players who use steroids present day. I think it's a much smaller number than people think. Yes in the past, probably more widespread until they ramped up the testing.

HGH/peptides I believe is much more common in the NFL but everyone here knows those are not even remotely on the same level as AAS.

Anyone with inside knowledge on this?
 
I think people drastically overestimate the amount of NFL players who use steroids present day. I think it's a much smaller number than people think. Yes in the past, probably more widespread until they ramped up the testing.

HGH/peptides I believe is much more common in the NFL but everyone here knows those are not even remotely on the same level as AAS.

Anyone with inside knowledge on this?
Yes. NFL testing is like any other sport - some are allowed to fail and some are protected, particularly the star players. Steroids aren't rampant, it's not like the majority of the league uses them, but it's also not just the people you hear getting suspended or the obvious cases like Laron Landry.

The Olympics is a great example. In the 2016 summer games, 8 athletes failed tests and were disqualified with 8 more suspended before competition. That's 16 out of 11,238 competing athletes. In 2020 it was 5 disqualified (including one of the ultra-rare GH test failures) and 4 suspended, for 9 out of 11,417 competing athletes.

Do we really believe only 0.14% and 0.07%, respectively, were using PEDs? To be clear, at the Olympics this includes stimulants, EPO, blood transfusions etc.
 
I think people drastically overestimate the amount of NFL players who use steroids present day. I think it's a much smaller number than people think. Yes in the past, probably more widespread until they ramped up the testing.

HGH/peptides I believe is much more common in the NFL but everyone here knows those are not even remotely on the same level as AAS.

Anyone with inside knowledge on this?

This. The overly muscled NFL players who want to add extra muscle for the look and are gym rats and use heavily almost always are the same guys chronically injured

Gholstom, Cushing, merriman, Vernon Davis, Landry brothers, clay Matthews, rondale Moore in college, the list goes on and on.

In a sport that is all about agility these guys bulking up and increasing muscle size relative to their tendons isn't a good thing.

The NFL is about speed, agility, skill, functional strength, and leverage not about who can build the most mass or lift the most in the weight room.

These guys have the world's best athletic trainers at their disposal. Gh would be of use and aas to help with recovery, but QB is throwing father, wr running faster, olineman blocking Aaron Donald because they used AAS. That natural functional strength your born with along with agility and technique by position coaches who make alot more than the team strength coach.

Baseball manipulates the ball based on if they want more homeruns to boost attendance, just like now they are talking about manipulating the mound. McGwire, Sosa played during the juiced ball era. This is a known fact they manipulate the balls. If juice was the reasons we had a spike in homeruns then we would be assuming only the hitters and not pitchers were using.

MLB players knew about and were using aas long before that era, mark McGwire didn't discover anything. He happened to play during an era attendance was poor and MLB wanted to put the thumb on the scale and increase offense just how the NFL has done by manipulating the rules.
 
This. The overly muscled NFL players who want to add extra muscle for the look and are gym rats and use heavily almost always are the same guys chronically injured

Gholstom, Cushing, merriman, Vernon Davis, Landry brothers, clay Matthews, rondale Moore in college, the list goes on and on.

In a sport that is all about agility these guys bulking up and increasing muscle size relative to their tendons isn't a good thing.

The NFL is about speed, agility, skill, functional strength, and leverage not about who can build the most mass or lift the most in the weight room.

These guys have the world's best athletic trainers at their disposal. Gh would be of use and aas to help with recovery, but QB is throwing father, wr running faster, olineman blocking Aaron Donald because they used AAS. That natural functional strength your born with along with agility and technique by position coaches who make alot more than the team strength coach.

Baseball manipulates the ball based on if they want more homeruns to boost attendance, just like now they are talking about manipulating the mound. McGwire, Sosa played during the juiced ball era. This is a known fact they manipulate the balls. If juice was the reasons we had a spike in homeruns then we would be assuming only the hitters and not pitchers were using.

MLB players knew about and were using aas long before that era, mark McGwire didn't discover anything. He happened to play during an era attendance was poor and MLB wanted to put the thumb on the scale and increase offense just how the NFL has done by manipulating the rules.
What are you talking about? The juiced ball era was a couple years ago and a bit beyond that. Sosa and McGwire was the juiced baseball players' era.
 
I think people drastically overestimate the amount of NFL players who use steroids present day. I think it's a much smaller number than people think. Yes in the past, probably more widespread until they ramped up the testing.

HGH/peptides I believe is much more common in the NFL but everyone here knows those are not even remotely on the same level as AAS.

Anyone with inside knowledge on this?
I know that it's much easier to get away with PED use in the NFL (and probably the NBA too) than it is baseball or the Olympics.
 
I think people drastically overestimate the amount of NFL players who use steroids present day. I think it's a much smaller number than people think. Yes in the past, probably more widespread until they ramped up the testing.

HGH/peptides I believe is much more common in the NFL but everyone here knows those are not even remotely on the same level as AAS.

Anyone with inside knowledge on this?

I don't know about the others, but when I talk about doped athletes I don't just mean that they use steroids. I don't give a shit what's in their syringes.

GH has been undetectable until recently, we know that bodybuilders were already using it in the late 80's.

Insulin can be used all day and no one is going to get caught.

Sure, steroids are better than other drugs in lot of sports, the sample is the weightlifting records that cannot be beaten, and if these athletes test positive it is because of the use of very old drugs. Another proof of the power of steroids is the RDA records.
 
Baseball manipulates the ball based on if they want more homeruns to boost attendance, just like now they are talking about manipulating the mound. McGwire, Sosa played during the juiced ball era. This is a known fact they manipulate the balls. If juice was the reasons we had a spike in homeruns then we would be assuming only the hitters and not pitchers were using.

I don't know if this is true, I wouldn't be surprised, but in soccer definitely they manipulate the ball to make it look like a balloon and have strange effects. Goalkeepers complain about these modern balls, attackers, on the other hand, are delighted.
 
I think a MLB player came out recently and said the league manipulates the ball each year based if they want more homeruns or better pitching. This year there were alot of no hitters so there was talk of lowering the mound.

I think more than anything, in the NFL guys are being shot up with painkillers to continue playing. There is definitely gh use and aas use I just don't think the aas levels the playing field, the freaks are the freaks and will dominate. Recovering from injury is where I think drugs are useful when it comes to athletic sports (NFL, NBA, NBA).
 
I think a MLB player came out recently and said the league manipulates the ball each year based if they want more homeruns or better pitching. This year there were alot of no hitters so there was talk of lowering the mound.

I think more than anything, in the NFL guys are being shot up with painkillers to continue playing. There is definitely gh use and aas use I just don't think the aas levels the playing field, the freaks are the freaks and will dominate. Recovering from injury is where I think drugs are useful when it comes to athletic sports (NFL, NBA, NBA).
They deadened the ball in 2020 due to the way the ball was traveling out of the parks on pop ups to the outfield in 2019. I can't say that I agree with the FIX but it was definitely noticeable because a lot of balls in 2019 should not have been going over the fence - but they were. Players that should be hitting 11 homers a year were hitting double that in many cases. I truly think the problem is they made it too lively back then and then they deadened it too much in 2020 to compensate for it.
 
They deadened the ball in 2020 due to the way the ball was traveling out of the parks on pop ups to the outfield in 2019. I can't say that I agree with the FIX but it was definitely noticeable because a lot of balls in 2019 should not have been going over the fence - but they were. Players that should be hitting 11 homers a year were hitting double that in many cases. I truly think the problem is they made it too lively back then and then they deadened it too much in 2020 to compensate for it.
I believe it. I wish they would stop messing with the ball it makes it hard to compare players now days, to players of the past because the stats are all skewed. Now I hear they want to mess with the mound? Jesus. And then they have the analytics going on top of that lol.

I hope it doesn't become the nfl. Now a days in the NFL an average QB has the same stats of a great QB 20 years ago, because the rules are so favorable to the offense. What gets me even more, they are taking the phyisacality out of the game. No more big hits. I remember back in the day the ravens steelers games were brutal, big hits, thats what I loved about football more than these high flying offenses.
 
Do we really believe only 0.14% and 0.07%, respectively, were using PEDs? To be clear, at the Olympics this includes stimulants, EPO, blood transfusions etc.
I think it's very hard to beat the tests. So if the testing is legit then there is very little use at the time the tests are taken. What did the Russian's do the last time to beat the tests? They drilled a hole in the testing laboratory and switched out the samples lol. Some very high tech use is probably happening in China etc where money and resources are limitless. Some different GH isomers, designer drugs, perhaps even gene manipulation, who knows? But classic roid cycles, nah, probably very little.
 
So your assuming that all great athletes used aas? Look at ricky Williams, the guy was a genetic freak he took a year off to smoke weed and meditate in the mountains then come back and was trucking new England Patriots in the championship game where little gym rat ray rice could Barley muster a Yard.

The names are irrelevant. We see in football all the time the jacked muscular built up guys...Cushing. Ghosting...Boston.. Tebow..Brady Quinn. These guys can't compete with the genetic freaks, the great athletes.

Randy moss the best wr of all time was skin and bones. Kevin Durant couldn't bench 225. Bozworth was an ox, he got humiliated on the field

My point..success in sports has nothing to do with aas use it has everything to do with generics. Tren test gh aren't making anyone compete with Michael Jordan.

We romanticize aas in sports I'm not sure why. Bill romanowski was juiced to the gills and he was a slug. Lawrence Taylor would run circles around him before he got out of his stance.
True to an extent. I also played D1 football and played with MANY (10+) guys who ended up in the NFL. This includes a #1 overall draft pick and two first-ballot hall of famers. Some of the best to ever play the game actually.
The dudes who ended up carving out long, successful NFL careers were NOT the biggest, strongest, fastest guys in the team. These dudes had unbelievable, God-given football instinct from day 1. It's tough to describe. There was never any question that any of these guys would end up with successful pro careers from the second they stepped on the field as 18 year old freshman.
It's difficult to quantify exactly what that "it" factor is, but you certainly cannot measure it at a combine, I can tell you that.
On the other hand, there were some absolute freaks. Usually the freaks were lazy, but more importantly, the freaks lacked that "it" factor on the field. Very few of them ever sniffed the NFL.
Conclusion: steroids and the ability to pack on muscle have very little bearing on one's ability to excel in athletics.
 
I think it's very hard to beat the tests. So if the testing is legit then there is very little use at the time the tests are taken. What did the Russian's do the last time to beat the tests? They drilled a hole in the testing laboratory and switched out the samples lol. Some very high tech use is probably happening in China etc where money and resources are limitless. Some different GH isomers, designer drugs, perhaps even gene manipulation, who knows? But classic roid cycles, nah, probably very little.

I see patriotic vein in your comment.

The US always leads the medal table, but is it China and Russia who cheat? Are you talking seriously?

All countries are fighting with the same weapons: The 3 mentioned, Germany, Japan, South Korea, UK ... all those who are always in the top 10.
 
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I think the majority of use at pro levels, IMO, is more for the recovery benefits vs putting on large amounts of muscle.
This is what people fail to realise - there is an enormous difference between the drug regime to get some one to mutate for the first time (muscle memory doesn't count here) and someone that has already reached that size once.
 
This past weekend the BEN WEIDER NATURAL PRO has just been celebrated.

These champions are naturals, or at least they've passed some kind of drug test.

If you had to bet on which of the 3 champions (open, classic and 212) is closer to the limits of human genetics, which would you do?




My answer is that Salazar represents average genetics, that is, very few people can look more massive with that level of condition without drug use.

Lenny might be achievable for a few genetic prodigies, but is not plausible for most.

No one, absolutely no one can look like Abdullah naturally, and he doesn't even have a supreme condition.
None are close to exceptional specimens. You have to remember that the vast majority of competitors in the natural divisions are only competing there because they can't make it in the proper shows.
 
I see patriotic vein in your comment.

The US always leads the medal table, but is it China and Russia who cheat? Are you talking seriously?

All countries are fighting with the same weapons: The 3 mentioned, Germany, Japan, South Korea, UK ... all those who are always in the top 10.

I'm not American, I'm a Scandinavian. It's just my impression that the Chinese would be more tight lipped and doing sports for the glory of their country, as opposed to Americans who are more individualistic. The culture would ensure secrecy. They probably would kill a tattle tale. In an individualistic country like the US there would be so many people who would blow the whistle - and so many people would need be in the know for a state sponsored doping program to work.

What do you think, which country is more likely to have state sponsored doping programs, the US or a more "closed off" country like China? My bet is on China. The US had the Balco scandal but the star of that was a supplement manufacturer, Patrick Arnold without the crazy budget that a state sponsored program would have.

I know that when possible high tech doping programs are discussed, perhaps even gene doping, everyone looks at China first. Everyone being the "experts."
Russia too had state sponsored doping programs in the recent past.
 
I'm not American, I'm a Scandinavian. It's just my impression that the Chinese would be more tight lipped and doing sports for the glory of their country, as opposed to Americans who are more individualistic. The culture would ensure secrecy. They probably would kill a tattle tale. In an individualistic country like the US there would be so many people who would blow the whistle - and so many people would need be in the know for a state sponsored doping program to work.

What do you think, which country is more likely to have state sponsored doping programs, the US or a more "closed off" country like China? My bet is on China. The US had the Balco scandal but the star of that was a supplement manufacturer, Patrick Arnold without the crazy budget that a state sponsored program would have.

I know that when possible high tech doping programs are discussed, perhaps even gene doping, everyone looks at China first. Everyone being the "experts."
Russia too had state sponsored doping programs in the recent past.
You bring up some good points. Unfortunately American culture is moving away from indovualism into collectivism where people think they owe something to society, especially in the past year. For me personally when I watch the Olympics I don't cheer for any country, could care less if they represent the same body of land I live on, jist enjoy watching the underdog win lol
 
I'm not American, I'm a Scandinavian. It's just my impression that the Chinese would be more tight lipped and doing sports for the glory of their country, as opposed to Americans who are more individualistic. The culture would ensure secrecy. They probably would kill a tattle tale. In an individualistic country like the US there would be so many people who would blow the whistle - and so many people would need be in the know for a state sponsored doping program to work.

What do you think, which country is more likely to have state sponsored doping programs, the US or a more "closed off" country like China? My bet is on China. The US had the Balco scandal but the star of that was a supplement manufacturer, Patrick Arnold without the crazy budget that a state sponsored program would have.

I know that when possible high tech doping programs are discussed, perhaps even gene doping, everyone looks at China first. Everyone being the "experts."
Russia too had state sponsored doping programs in the recent past.

But China and Russia are poorer countries and with less tradition in sports than the US since they have come later to meet the basic needs of the population. When you are miserable you cannot think of pleasant activities or leisure, such as sports.

By the way, the US has more soldiers than any other country, so I would say that patriotism is very strong.

And just look at the facts, who wins the most medals? Do you really think that the US does not have a state doping program? Don't they have federal agencies that operate under state secrecy?
 
But China and Russia are poorer countries and with less tradition in sports than the US since they have come later to meet the basic needs of the population. When you are miserable you cannot think of pleasant activities or leisure, such as sports.

By the way, the US has more soldiers than any other country, so I would say that patriotism is very strong.

And just look at the facts, who wins the most medals? Do you really think that the US does not have a state doping program? Don't they have federal agencies that operate under state secrecy?
The size of the US army is nearly 1/2 the size of that of China.



RankCountryActive Military Personnel
1China2,035,000
2India1,444,500
3United States of America1,359,450
4Democratic People's Republic of Korea1,280,000
 
But China and Russia are poorer countries and with less tradition in sports than the US since they have come later to meet the basic needs of the population. When you are miserable you cannot think of pleasant activities or leisure, such as sports.

By the way, the US has more soldiers than any other country, so I would say that patriotism is very strong.

And just look at the facts, who wins the most medals? Do you really think that the US does not have a state doping program? Don't they have federal agencies that operate under state secrecy?
I have to disagree about the patriotism. Most who join the us military view it as a career, very few are in actual combat or face any danger (I've read About this on other forum's where people debate the heroic view we have for military). Some do it because it excites them or they do have a hero complex, extreme patriotism/nationalism, but I'd say the majority do it as a means to make a career like any other job (police, teacher etc).
 

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