Thoughts on “testosterone enhancement therapy” trend?

[xpoc]

Completely understand your point of view and I had family in Europe during WW2 as well and some who fought in the Spanish civil war.. Id agree with you on almost everything except the fact that there were no TV dinners and processed foods back then lol at least not widely popular until about the 80’s or so here in the states, definitely not in Europe where my family is from, as for the Americans of that era, they might not have eaten a clean diet for the most part but it was largely unprocessed natural sources of food until just a couple decades ago..

Although I can’t speak much about Americans from that era as I’m a first generation American, my entire family is from Europe, and my great grandparents all lived into their early and late 90’s respectively, no real health issues to speak of and very active even at that age walking around town, still doing work on their farms etc..

A little off the subject but A LOT of the chemicals and processed foods we have today in the US are banned and even illegal in some countries in the EU and Asia, Singapore I believe gives a 15 year prison sentence for some of those chemicals we eat here every day.. Makes you wonder, and I’d even bet that it does have an effect on Testosterone levels as we obviously know it has effects on health overall...

Right we are Americans from SoCal. As a kid in the 70's we ate a LOT of TV dinners. It seemed like in the 70's (which would have been about 50 years ago) our diet was worse than ever. Full sugar sodas. TV dinners. Fried everything. Packaged food. Canned meat like Spam. Smoking was 100x more prevalent. We lived in a middle class neighborhood so this was (seemingly) all the fathers on my street. They were all in their late 30's to early 50's at the time and I would say 75% of them smoked. None of them seemed remotely physically fit. There was a younger dude in the neighborhood (late 20') who had some weights in his garage. We used to stand out on the curb and watch him lift. It was so rare to see someone willingly exercise that it was entertaining. The guy was prob 5'7" and 165 lbs but we thought he was jacked.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Its proven in studies.
Our parents were HEALTHIER than us, not the other way around. 1/2 of modern nations are obese and that should prove it. I don't think guys were up in the 1400s but doctors have shown that test levels are decreasing about 1% every year right now.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-testosterone-levels-dc-idUKKIM16976320061101
https://www.icenews.is/2010/05/17/t...danish-men/?cookie-state-change=1598403376419

I question this. I have read it "somewhere" too but it wasn't backed by science. I am 50+ and I remember my dad and all his friends. They were products of the WWII and Korean war eras. They ate shit, all chain smoked and drank. They ate fried food, TV dinners, spam, and all kinds of crap. Most of them in their 40's and 50's had pot bellys and many (like my father) died before the age of 60. Keep in mind, for the most part people did not work out 50 years ago. I simply cannot imagine that the men from my dads era had higher test levels than those of us today in his age range who regularly workout, understand nutrition, and maintain a much healthier lifestyle. But, hats off to those guys because they were badasses who battled Nazis, Imperial Japan, and won wars. #Merica!

 

[nothuman]

The way this thread got hijacked into hearing hilarious stories of people’s shitty habits from 40-60 years ago gives me new purpose in life

 

[xpoc]

OK I am a TRT guy. Here is my story. At age 41, I went to my family doctor and told him my symptoms (typical low test stuff). He had me do a blood test and I came in at total T of 275 or something. He said I was within "normal" ranges so he was hesitant but eventually referred me to a specialist who prescribed me a very low dose of Androgel. I got it up to 500's at times...dropped down to 300's...and a high test would come in in the mid 600's. I eventually separated from them (not covered by insurance) and went to a TRT specialist from Florida. I got scripted 200mg of test per week (I now do 100 every 4 days) along with HcG. My level is always north of 1000. Is this good for my health? Not sure. All I know is my triglycerides are lower and body comp has improved. Cholesterol and BP meds before and after TRT so hard to tell what if any impact. So long answer to to short question, but ultimately I do feel better (higher sexual appetite for sure) when I am at 1000+ rather than in the 300's.

 

[alfresco]

What happened? That equates to about 420 mgs per week which is pretty high dose for long term. I am sure hemo went up, lipids out of whack, maybe blood pressure increase? Just curious because the total mgs of some of the enhanced trt creep up to 400 mg or so. Even if actual mgs of compounds are low the combined total being high adds up, to I believe at least.

Thanks for the post!

Hemo went up, but no more than when I was on a lots less test. Lipids no change, coronary calcium scan = 0, bp no change 70/120. I know this is very odd how I metabolize test. At 20mg per day test is 1,000, bp and lipids are the same.

 

[j2048b]

OK I am a TRT guy. Here is my story. At age 41, I went to my family doctor and told him my symptoms (typical low test stuff). He had me do a blood test and I came in at total T of 275 or something. He said I was within "normal" ranges so he was hesitant but eventually referred me to a specialist who prescribed me a very low dose of Androgel. I got it up to 500's at times...dropped down to 300's...and a high test would come in in the mid 600's. I eventually separated from them (not covered by insurance) and went to a TRT specialist from Florida. I got scripted 200mg of test per week (I now do 100 every 4 days) along with HcG. My level is always north of 1000. Is this good for my health? Not sure. All I know is my triglycerides are lower and body comp has improved. Cholesterol and BP meds before and after TRT so hard to tell what if any impact. So long answer to to short question, but ultimately I do feel better (higher sexual appetite for sure) when I am at 1000+ rather than in the 300's.

I need to find a new trt clinic myself, but i also dont want to have to spend a crap ton for stuff i can get elsewhere...i was on trt for over 10 yrs and quit because i got tired of it.... Now im lazy and couch sitting is ma game

I need to get my test levels back up

I always felt amazing if my levels were over 900

 

[LK3]

100% agree.

Let's be real here. No one is adding Deca, Mast or Primo to their TRT cycle to "enhance well being.''
They're adding it on there because they mentally can't come off and/or have convinced themselves that anything in the regular TRT range will cause them to "lose their gains." Its that simple. Lets stop pretending this is for anything other than keeping muscle mass.

IMO, unless you can walk around at 290lbs in your offseason, you don't need a higher dose of TRT or an addition compound. But for the average gym bro, 150 test is it.

actually the idea came from a video posted from this gynocolgyst from canada who had been working with hrt for men as well. was an old fat dude who said he had even used for himself.

the dose were with test and deca with oral wini used ed.
it was an interesting idea.

while i have a tendancy to agree with the generality of your statement and dont venture outside of true trt for the most part there is most certainly a range for trt not a one size fits all dose for all times and all reason.

i think things like this in combination with a lot of emerics ideas fit together for a fairly nice safe sort of cyclical year picture where you drop your test down for times as low as can be, and just test. then work your way back up in test dosing. adding in something like mast after some time may help with est and or shbg if you perscribe to that. then again down the line adding in a progesterone compound in small dose can have arguable benefits to lowering natty that may have creeped up.

label it what you want.

 

[LK3]

How do you feel and look on this stack? Any idea of what your labs look like?

been a long time since ive had blood work done. no idea.

i like the mix.
i would prefer to up my test but kinda low on that atm so playing around with whats on hand. i went down to 40mgs week of test this year playing with some of emerics ideas and goign back to 100mgs of test felt like a big bump. i really felt the mast when i added it. the nan not so much. maybe a lil less soreness in some ways.

if i was taking 50mgs of test ed i would be bigger but would also need an ai. i think the mast give a lil harder look even at just 100mgs.

i havent been to a gym all year so training sucks. lol

 

[xpoc]

100% agree.

Let's be real here. No one is adding Deca, Mast or Primo to their TRT cycle to "enhance well being.''
They're adding it on there because they mentally can't come off and/or have convinced themselves that anything in the regular TRT range will cause them to "lose their gains." Its that simple. Lets stop pretending this is for anything other than keeping muscle mass.

IMO, unless you can walk around at 290lbs in your offseason, you don't need a higher dose of TRT or an addition compound. But for the average gym bro, 150 test is it.

This Doctor has a differing opinion.....

 

[TheOtherOne55]

You must’ve missed the point I was trying to make.

This Doctor has a differing opinion.....

 

[LK3]

This Doctor has a differing opinion.....

while not the video i was referring too, that was also good, thanks bro!

in the other the dr mentions that nan is actually a better anti innflamatory then cortisone and that was one of the reasons he liked it for various things.

the last i ran npp was a cycle but it topped out at less then 350mg week of mast/test/npp each wk and i did noticed some dick issues so i have been much more gentle with the dosing. with just 50mg wk i do notice less joint/tendon pain. i load a 3cc barrel with 1cc tp, 1.5 cc mp and .5 cc npp and use that for the week. admin 6 days one day off. i actually did need to add in a little ai as my nips have been sore and swollen and holding water which is weird from this does of test. i do feel that going down to 40mgs for some time made hitting 100mg feel like much more. all that said based on previous blood work i would be very surprised if my test levels were more then 800.

food for though

 

[buck]

Yes, the range has been lowered over time. Why? I have no clue.

Been on TRT for 15 years.

The highest my test ever got was 1400ng/dL on 600mg every 10 days. Zero sides . . . for a while.

As has been noted above, mens T levels have been dropping for decades. So the lab range would have to drop as well. Lab ranges for "normal" have nothing to do with health. Check out what a "normal" cholesterol level is(150-240 last I checked) as compared to a "healthy" level. From my reading labs look at all the tests they perform and throw out the top and bottom 2.5%. And the 95% that is left in the middle is considered "normal".

 

[warlock]

actually the idea came from a video posted from this gynocolgyst from canada who had been working with hrt for men as well. was an old fat dude who said he had even used for himself.

the dose were with test and deca with oral wini used ed.
it was an interesting idea.

while i have a tendancy to agree with the generality of your statement and dont venture outside of true trt for the most part there is most certainly a range for trt not a one size fits all dose for all times and all reason.

i think things like this in combination with a lot of emerics ideas fit together for a fairly nice safe sort of cyclical year picture where you drop your test down for times as low as can be, and just test. then work your way back up in test dosing. adding in something like mast after some time may help with est and or shbg if you perscribe to that. then again down the line adding in a progesterone compound in small dose can have arguable benefits to lowering natty that may have creeped up.

label it what you want.

This is also an interesting video

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/estrogen-dominance-low-testosterone-and-inflammation-interview-with-dr-edward-lichten.163892/

 

[LK3]

This is also an interesting video

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/estrogen-dominance-low-testosterone-and-inflammation-interview-with-dr-edward-lichten.163892/

i havent watched the vid yet but thats the dr i was talking about.

thanks brotha!
its good info and worth a try!

 

[KillerStack]

Regarding average test levels dropping over the decades. I gotta wonder how reliable this data is. What was the population tested when they first started testing? How reliable was the testing? Could they test for total test vs free test? Was there testing for estrogen, was it even possible? Lots of questions.
I know much has been said about nutitional value of food getting worse, but OTOH certain populations that experienced food scarcity back in the day and poor people might not have gotten as many essential nutrients as today. I'm in Europe but my parents generation, coming from a working family, ate pretty terribly when young. Not enough protein as that was what was most expensive. When little kids, they ate bread and drank coffee for breakfast for example. Yes, kids got coffee as soon as they would drink it

It's pretty interesting how earlier puberty today is linked to an excess of food. It's not thought to be due to synthetic hormones in dairy or meat and the xenoestrogen hypothesis is pretty weak from what I've seen. So back in the day people didn't get as much nourishment as they do today, especially poor folks so puberty started years later.
Of course if this overeating leads to obesity I can see it affecting sex hormones negatively later on. We've talked here about the number of muscular poor blacks that many see in the US, who seem to have naturally high test.
But they eat a lot of junk food that's supposedly bad for testosterone. But they may still get a lot of nutrients no?

So my suspicion is that test might be higher today in certain populations.

Thougths?