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Thoughts on No Cardio for contest prep...

coopie i agree with you ever since i started doing more cardio in sept i dropped 30lbs..and it seems my recoverty times have increased..it's hard to do cardio intensely and lift heavy but the results are worth it..for the last two years my diet and my lifting have been shitty but it's good to see that i'm gettin in shape..also i wanna be a ripped mofo and the cardio is helping i'm gonna try to do cardio 2x a day also somedays..it's hard to find the time but a quick 30mins in the pm helps
 
Okay, that about covers it - anyone that wants to do as little cardio as possible, come with me...

LOL

Wylde,
Seriously, you are right in that we approach this concept from different angles but I just have to stress so that no one misses my point:

I use cardio if needed and when needed. I just want to use it as little as possible. Just as carbs/calories are cycled throughout a prep phase, so is cardio. It may be in for a week or a handful of sessions and then it comes out for a certain time period whether a few days or a few weeks, depending on how that client reacts. Instead of manipulating the metabolism and keeping it off balance with differing intakes of calories, this keeps it off balance with differing levels of calories being expended. Same end result but just a different path to get there.

I don't mean to be redundant by continuing to state my position on cardio but I just want to be sure that it is kept in context - I am not anti cardio. I think I may have made the mistake from the beginning of this thread by making it sound that no cardio is ever needed if your diet is where it should be and that is not what I meant. There are a few that can do this but it is a huge exception.

Skip
 
Skip, wyldeone, etc...

How do you feel about HIIT? Just curious, I've always been an advocate of lower intensity and from what I've noticed only the younger guys (as in teens) do HIIT and claim great results over low intensity. I did it a couple years back, but I felt I was losing too much muscle too quickly. I started out with the minimum too :(
 
cardio

Ry Roid said:
I am busting my ass doing 40min cardio 2 times a day.hehhe Yes, diet can rid you of fat w/out doing cardio but, i Gaurantee you won't look as good on stage if you leave it out.

RY



For the collegiant nationals in 2003 I was doing 5 hrs of cardio a day 2 pre first meal 2 post workout then 2 more b4 bed. I wanted to kill myself and burn that fukn stationary bike. Is cardio essential I believe yes to the extent I did I dont know, studies have shown that low intensity excercise uses fatty acids from a trigyceride as a energy source. And as each level intensity go up goes to creatine phospate, glycogen, to amino acids at certain levels of excersize levels. What has worked for u in the past? Then compare it without, that is the only way to know. As far as cheating I think u have to be careful. One day or one cheat meal the most one can worry about is water retention but it also takes away a day of dieting. The key is to know ur body and how it reacts, the only way to know is through trial and error. But be consistent that is the fundamentals of dieting and know that not everyone is the same we all react to things differently. So for fatasses like me liposuction, a muzzle and 10 hrs cardio a brings out a beautiful line..... between my cheeks and thats bout it :p
 
[QUOTE=gooey}extent I did I dont know, studies have shown that low intensity excercise uses fatty acids from a trigyceride as a energy source. And as each level intensity go up goes to creatine phospate, glycogen, to amino acids at certain levels of excersize levels


yup it's called beta metabolism the burning of triglycerides for fuel can only be done in an aerobic environment to ellicit the response of aerobic enzymatic induction..basically meaning that the enzymes needed to catalyze lipolysis occurrs.

:p
 
skip

I just got to throw the question out there.
Skip, don't you think even the resting BMR would be increased due to a better aerobic capacity via cardio? That a body would just work that more efficiently at converting the fat stores even while at rest?
I mean, if you have your protien intake really on to support and even possibly build some muscle (miniscule if possible at all, I know) then your body will convert to using fatty acids for needed energy while at rest?
I'm not really taking in the thought process of the extra calories being used up with the cardio, (say you cover that thru adding them into your diet) but the extra cals being used by raising the metabolism via a more efficiently working aerobic capacity.
By no means do I like cardio. In fact, I can say that I despise it, but I do think it would benefit a large majority of the competitors out there.
For the most part, I highly recommend it for to people just based on the fact that most of them don't get as lean as they should. Honestly, how many guys get into an over-dieted state because they added in cardio? Very few that I can attest too.
Most are over dieted because of lack of adequate protien intake. Just not enough to support the muscle they do have.
I understand you use cardio on clients you know you feel need to, but not too many guys can afford or have the patience to follow a good trainers advice close enough.
My next go around for me on the stage is gonna include some at least mild cardio to see how it turns out for me. Then I'll know if it helped or hurt me.
I was extremely happy with my results without cardio, but I got to buckle down and really try it out this time. lol.
Plus, darn it, it just makes you feel better after you've done it. Hehehe.
I hated it while doing it, but i really felt more alert and awake after doing it first thing in the morn.
 
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I agree

Mikeman,
I agree 110% I feel that your resting BMR will infact increase with increased cardiovascular conditioning as there are numerous studies related to this principal. I also agree that most competetors feel they are lean enough therefore don't do cardio when in essence it is a cop-out for being lazy and not giving it everything they have. I personally have dieted for shows using no cardio and while i got lean I didn't have the dense,hard,striated,detailed look and I was very strict with my meal plans,supplements,training and caloric intake as well as watching energy expenditure. I find that with the addition of cardio you just get a more refined look overall. Trust me NO ONE likes cardio and if you do your warped but if you get your cardio sessions in and your nutrition,supplements and training regimn are spot on you have covered all variables, you leave nothing to chance. I have seen way to many competetors try to fool not only themself's but others by stating "oh its just the water its not fat" i call BULLSHIT fact of the matter is if you are on a typical pre-contest stack where your body is in an anabolic state and your using your anti-estrogens as needed there is little to no water. First the anabolic and non-androgenic properties don't allow for excess water retention and second if you are as lean as you need to be very and i stress very few will drop more than 8-10 lbs of water tops as your body just doesn't hold near the water esp. once you have dropped the test and GH! So while I have had some of my guys that required very little cardio I still make them do it as it just brings out the detail and hardness( PRIME EXAMPLE IS JOE MCNEIL MAKING DEXTER JACKSON DO CARDIO AND INCREASING HIS CALORIC INTAKE THIS LAST YEAR AND A HALF AS DEXTER HAD NEVER DONE CARDIO IN HIS LIFE PREVIOUSLY AND DEXTER ATTRIBUTED THAT TO THE INCREASED CALORIC INTAKE AND CARDIO FOR HIS INCREASED SIZE) . I personally used to only do cardio the last 6-8 weeks leading up to a show now as I have gotten older I have to start cardio 12 weeks out. Figure your target heart rate and figure 70% of target heart rate is optimal fat burn mode and your set. If you are ready to go as most of my clients are 2-3 weeks out we back the cardio down or in some cases drop it completely to fill the legs back in and allow them to open back up. One thing about it an objective trained eye and the mirror don't lie, friends and loved ones that don't have the heart to tell you your out of shape will for fear of hurting your feelings. Keep that in mind gang. wyldeone
 
mike man said:
I'm not really taking in the thought process of the extra calories being used up with the cardio, (say you cover that thru adding them into your diet) but the extra cals being used by raising the metabolism via a more efficiently working aerobic capacity.


Why would a persons body use more calories if your aerobic capacity is MORE efficient? The definition of efficiency is doing the same amount of work with LESS energy. Or more work with the same amount of energy.


BTW I believe you should do cardio to lose the fat so not disagreeing with that.
 
Oh man, I think I am still not articulating my thoughts very well. lol

Mikeman here is an example of my feelings about cardio:

When you get into your prep and you are doing cardio and let's say the weight is falling too quickly. You add calories but it only slows down the drops slightly. You are already at the point that you can BARELY choke down the calories that you have so more is going to be next to impossible. Here is where I would drop the cardio all together for even as little as a couple days and see how the body reacts. First, chances are very good that your leg sessions are going to improve, and again, the less work you are doing, the less chance of overtraining.

Another example and I will use a client that I won't mention his name:

Whiling running clen 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, withOUT cardio, calories have to start jumping by a couple hundred every day after starting the 2 week period of clen until they top out around an extra 600-800 calories over what was being taken in while off the clen. Doing cardio at that point would cause another added amount of calories that would have this guy to the point that he would be looking like Ronnie in the gut from the volume of food ingested. In his case, cardio was used but only as needed during the off clen weeks (and it was very little cardio - maybe 4 sessions in a 2 week period). This was also a lightheavy and his calories were usually in the 2800-3200 range without clen and closer to 4000 while on the clen. T3 use was very moderate and no GH was being run and no other added extras like yohimbe or any shit like that.

Mike, I think you said that you have seen so many guys overdieted from lack of protein but I have seen PLENTY that were overdieted and were doing massive amounts of cardio. My entire point to this debate about cardio from the beginning was to have guys, especially the first time competitors, not rely on cardio and get caught up in it being their save all, end all. The diet itself can control much more of the metabolism than most think it can.
Please know, too, that I very much respect you, your conditioning, experience and opinions. I am only keeping this going because it is a positive debate that I think most of the members want to see.

Again, I am not saying that cardio is a bad idea but I still stand by limiting it as much as you can "get away" with. In fact, my choice of cardio, when needed, is double stepping the gauntlet. It is a great way to really nail your glutes and hams while doing cardio. Truth and honesty about your condition are paramount and I agree that if I hear one more time that " I was holding a few pounds of water", I am going to puke.

Note to friends and family: Go ahead and fill your friend's head with bullshit after prejudging and into the night show but be big enough to tell them EXACTLY where they stood after the show so that they don't run around at the post-show dinner making asses out of themselves by saying "I was fucking robbed".

Skip
ADD: Why do I always get into these good debates on everyone else's board but my own? *sigh* :)
 
I have gotten down to 5.5% with no cardio ever on a very strict diet and the right stuff. I didn't attempt to keep going, but I did hit a plateau on fat loss, I figure I would have had to add cardio to the mix to break through it..
 
Crowler said:
Why would a persons body use more calories if your aerobic capacity is MORE efficient? The definition of efficiency is doing the same amount of work with LESS energy. Or more work with the same amount of energy.


BTW I believe you should do cardio to lose the fat so not disagreeing with that.
Crowler,
What I meant by that statement was more efficient at burning calories thru a higher BMR caused by cardio sessions (and a need for increased calorie intake if necesary).
Example: a couch potato's resting BMR is much lower than an excercised subject. It isn't only because the exercised has more lean mass, but that the subject is ACTIVE therefor raising his BMR and becoming a more efficient calorie burning machine.
If we had both subjects eat the same amount of calories on a given day, (without even exercising) which one do you think would burn more calories given their state of conditioning?
Just food for thought my friend. lol.
This discussion has brought to light many pros and cons of cardio. This is what we are all here for. :)
And skip, Some people (still very few IMO) do get over zealous in their cardio sessions. Totally feeling like they need to run their butts off to do it right. lol. But you have to remember, this is probably the same type (mindset) of person that would have over dieted even if they didn't have the opportunity to do the tons of cardio.
 
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mike man said:
And skip, Some people (still very few IMO) do get over zealous in their cardio sessions. Totally feeling like they need to run their butts off to do it right. lol. But you have to remember, this is probably the same type (mindset) of person that would have over dieted even if they didn't have the opportunity to do the tons of cardio.

Fair enough, I can end it on that note. :)

Skip
 
Isn't this too much cardio? Ive never heard anyone do more than 2-3 hours a day.

currently im doing 45 minutes 6 days a week. ive been doing this for 3 weeks. im 5 weeks into dieting (did 3 days a week first 2 weeks) and i do think i need more cardio or the bloat from the test is hiding everything, which i just dropped, and just running tren at 500mg per week..and soon proviron.

im dieting to get to 8%. so i was wondering, for someone coming from 16-17%, probably 14-15% now, is it time to start adding in 30 minutes post-workout? or 45? or just increase it every couple of weeks til im at 2 hours a day?

i started this for 12 weeks, i have almost 7 weeks left. i was wondering if i can still hit my goal.

i dont do cardio on leg day so its 6 days a week. training is mon-fri. the weekends would be great for the double cardio sessions. and btw, i have all the time to do it.

Thanks.

gooey said:
For the collegiant nationals in 2003 I was doing 5 hrs of cardio a day 2 pre first meal 2 post workout then 2 more b4 bed. I wanted to kill myself and burn that fukn stationary bike. Is cardio essential I believe yes to the extent I did I dont know, studies have shown that low intensity excercise uses fatty acids from a trigyceride as a energy source. And as each level intensity go up goes to creatine phospate, glycogen, to amino acids at certain levels of excersize levels. What has worked for u in the past? Then compare it without, that is the only way to know. As far as cheating I think u have to be careful. One day or one cheat meal the most one can worry about is water retention but it also takes away a day of dieting. The key is to know ur body and how it reacts, the only way to know is through trial and error. But be consistent that is the fundamentals of dieting and know that not everyone is the same we all react to things differently. So for fatasses like me liposuction, a muzzle and 10 hrs cardio a brings out a beautiful line..... between my cheeks and thats bout it :p
 
I am curious what people's definition of cardio is.

When dieting I will walk for 30 minutes at a slow pace where my pulse will go up to approximately 110, to me I guess technically this is cardio but to me it VERY low level. Sometimes if I am in a hurry to get a little leaner I will add a second 30 minutes late in the day.

I am not sure where I got this idea OH wait it was SKIP lol

Let me qualify that though, Skip was training me for a 12 week before and after contest. It was not Body for Life it was a different contest. But basically the goal was to lose as much body fat as possible.

Keeping the absolute MOST muscle possible was NOT as important as it is when getting ready for a bodybuilding contest.


CROWLER
 
yuck cardio

cardio in chubby, fat, lazy terms for me is a low intensity cardiovascular pace usually I do it on a recumbant bike (fat butt friendly seat) :eek: I am now doing 45 min either am b4 eat or post workout. As show time gets closer the duration increases not the intensity ( I do not have any desire to burn off what little muscle tissue I have) I am not that chubby going into thie contest prep as I was in 2003 so I am not planing on doing the same amount that I did in the past. For me cardio is a necessity to get in shape I do it everyday when getting ready at the same pace, same times. I am different I dont change things up much my body loves consistency and a set schedule via same meal, same time for everything. When things fall of my sched my body is unhappy and does not like. The golden rule I believe is to know and through trial and error is to know how yur body reacts there is no "cookie cutter" way to diet and do cardio what works for some may work for others but may not. U can apply as many theorhetical deiting and cardio schemes but it may not work for one person as is does for another. FInd someting u like, or can tolerate :rolleyes: and do it then see if it works over a period of time. This diet prep for me will also be another test to see how my body works what foods u can and cannot eat, how much cadio do u really need to do in order to get in shape. This is what is fun about dieting to see how things work and things that dont. But like what was said earlier in this thread it would be nice to know that I didnt have to do 5hrs of cardio or I could have had that one slice of pizza and it wouldnt of mattered. Like the ol' GI Joe cartoon "knowing is half the battle" :p
gooey
 
we have a gas exchange test here at my studio and it will give you an exact target heart rate to be at to burn the maximum amount of fat by measuring oxygen in/dioxide out. its called a new leaf system. if anyone has it in your area it might be worth doing to hit it dead on instead of guessing.
 
I was just wondering how would phasing it out actually work when your body gets used to the cardio, then you have to INCREASE it to burn more fat don't you. And I also thought the leaner you get the TOUGHER it is to get even LEANER so wouldn't it still require more cardio or am i wrong on this one?

Coopie said:
For my last show (NABBA - local show), I began cardio 12 weeks out.

I broke my cardio into 3 phases, as follows:

Phase 1 - 12 weeks to 8 weeks out
1 hour cardio AM post workout on an empty stomach
30 minutes cardio PM near empty stomach

Phase 2 - 8 weeks to 4 weeks out
30 minutes cardio AM post workout on an empty stomach
30 minutes cardio PM near empty stomach

Phase 3 - weeks out to near-show day
30 minutes cardio AM post workout empty stomach

I was pretty ripped by the middle of phase 2, and I started with a bf of 11%. I did not have my bf % measured as I began because I wanted to use the mirror as my judge, not a caliper.

For me, I cannot lose the weight - much less get shredded - w/out the cardio. But, a few weeks of cardio seems to erase a winter's worth of bad eating habits. I actually enjoy the time spent on the Precor b/c I know it's getting me towards my goal - and I can SEE THE RESULT ON A DAILY BASIS.

Hope this helped...
 

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