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Thoughts on Nolva for stand-alone estrogen control on TRT?

Landmonster

Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
977
Hi guys.

So some recent threads have made me consider altering my TRT.

If aromatase inhibitors are :
-bad for joints and tendon health
-bad for libido
-bad for long-term cardiovascular health

If these are true.... then it seems the only possible alternatives would be to either use less Testosterone (to where estrogen is not a potential problem)... or use a SERM such as a Nolvadex. (Unless some other natural method of controlling estrogen is escaping me)


Here are my concerns with Nolvadex only. Perhaps someone educated can chime in?
1) Problem: Nolvadex is known to lower IGF-1 levels.
Concern: On a TRT cruise, we need all the all the anabolic support we can get without damaging our health. It seems like lowering IFG-1 levels would be detrimental to holding onto muscle and gains.

2) Problem: Nolvadex is known to lower free testosterone.

Concern: On a TRT cruise, we need all the all the testosterone available for libido and anabolic support. It seems like lowering Free-T levels would be detrimental to holding onto muscle. Nolvadex supposedly does this by raising SHBG levels.

3) Problem: Nolvadex is said to raise estrogen levels in men.
Concern: Is this true? If so, it seems that Nolvadex may help by blocking estrogen in some helpful areas (such as breast tissue), but hurt by raising estrogen in other areas where it might be detrimental to our mood, libido, or gains.


Anyway. I am trying to make sense of all this. Is Nolvadex something that a bodybuilder or strength athlete would want to use long-term on TRT or "Cruises"? Or is dialing in a low dose of Aromasin a better option?

I am trying to run 250-300mg of Test as a cruise, and control estrogen in the smartest overall fashion, with the least impact to health/libidio/joints/gains.
 
Last edited:
Hi guys.

So some recent threads have made me consider altering my TRT.

If aromatase inhibitors are :
-bad for joints and tendon health
-bad for libido
-bad for long-term cardiovascular health

If these are true.... then it seems the only possible alternatives would be to either use less Testosterone (to where estrogen is not a potential problem)... or use a SERM such as a Nolvadex. (Unless some other natural method of controlling estrogen is escaping me)


Here are my concerns with Nolvadex only. Perhaps someone educated can chime in?
1) Problem: Nolvadex is known to lower IGF-1 levels.
Concern: On a TRT cruise, we need all the all the anabolic support we can get without damaging our health. It seems like lowering IFG-1 levels would be detrimental to holding onto muscle and gains.

2) Problem: Nolvadex is known to lower free testosterone.

Concern: On a TRT cruise, we need all the all the testosterone available for libido and anabolic support. It seems like lowering Free-T levels would be detrimental to holding onto muscle. Nolvadex supposedly does this by raising SHBG levels.

3) Problem: Nolvadex is said to raise estrogen levels in men.
Concern: Is this true? If so, it seems that Nolvadex may help by blocking estrogen in some helpful areas (such as breast tissue), but hurt by raising estrogen in other areas where it might be detrimental to our mood, libido, or gains.


Anyway. I am trying to make sense of all this. Is Nolvadex something that a bodybuilder or strength athlete would want to use long-term on TRT or "Cruises"? Or is dialing in a low dose of Aromasin a better option?

I am trying to run 250-300mg of Test as a cruise, and control estrogen in the smartest overall fashion, with the least impact to health/libidio/joints/gains.

Tamoxifen has been studies extensively and for long periods of time, 10-15 years in females, but not in males to my knowledge. No adverse side effects were found. So it may be a better alternative than the usage of AIs.

You've answered your own question here (one of them), in dosing exogenous Test so E is not an issue. is 250-300mg considered TRT? Nope.

1. Its effects on IGF-1 are minimal IMO. If you're using HGH, forget about the IGF-1 decrease.

2. Yes, it does increase SHBG in adolescent males, as shown in this study.

3. No. Some Tamoxfen metabolites act to lower levels of E by numerous pathways. One could argue to has anti-aromatase properties.

Have you checked DIM out?

Second generations SERMs like Toremifene and Raloxifene may be better drugs still.
 
No adverse side effects were found.

??? tamoxifen has a long list of serious side effects, including cancer, and these are well documented, it's AIs that have no adverse side effects, except from driving estradiol too low.
 
If aromatase inhibitors are :
-bad for joints and tendon health
-bad for libido
-bad for long-term cardiovascular health

None of these side effects are from the AI itself directly, they are from people overusing them and lowering E2 too much.

A large number of us have been able to drop our AI if we lower our T dose to a physiological level (e.g. 10mg/day protocol)...
 
;)

Here we have 2 well-informed gurus already arguing about AI vs SERMs.


My concerns still stand though... I don't want to do anything that is going to lower my muscle-building or muscle-protecting endeavors on a cruise.

I would also like to maximize my sex drive, and well-being in my joints.




I have no doubts that my AI use would be unnecessary if I were using only 10mg a day of Testosterone. What about 300mg of testosterone a week, in 3x 100mg shots?
 
;)

Here we have 2 well-informed gurus already arguing about AI vs SERMs.


My concerns still stand though... I don't want to do anything that is going to lower my muscle-building or muscle-protecting endeavors on a cruise.

I would also like to maximize my sex drive, and well-being in my joints.




I have no doubts that my AI use would be unnecessary if I were using only 10mg a day of Testosterone. What about 300mg of testosterone a week, in 3x 100mg shots?

Estradiol doesn't help your gains, it might hurt if you take it too low. Isn't this broscience pretty well debunked as just based on them giving estradiol to cows?

Why not just do a minimal dose of AI and get bloodwork done to be sure?
 
300mg / week as TRT is something that only true genetic outliers should need. Do you have data to show you need this much to have good physiological levels of testosterone?

With a true TRT dosage that puts your testosterone at a good physiological level, most won't need an AI.

Regardless, you're talking about things that have an incremental impact on muscle. Continuing to train hard and eat right are the most important factors for maximizing a physique on TRT.
 
??? tamoxifen has a long list of serious side effects, including cancer, and these are well documented, it's AIs that have no adverse side effects, except from driving estradiol too low.

Tamoxifen is generally well tolerated in males.

As shown here and here.
 
I can only comment based on personal experience but I run nolva at 20 mgs EOD on low and moderate dose cycles and couldn't be happier with the results
 
??? tamoxifen has a long list of serious side effects, including cancer, and these are well documented, it's AIs that have no adverse side effects, except from driving estradiol too low.

Actually I posted one here not long ago a study showing aromasin and arimidex caused bone loss in Male that they did not believe was caused in response to low ed red estrogen but to the effects of the compound itself.. I thought I saved it but cant find it yet.. I'll post it when I do..
 
Back in the golden era supposedly they only used nolva and no ais.
 
Tamoxifen is generally well tolerated in males.

As shown here and here.

Agreed, I just didn't want anyone to think it was free of side effects, most of us turned to AIs decades ago because they had a better safety profile than nolvadex, which everyone was using.

I personally don't think nolva is that bad, but when we are considering long term (rest of life) use I think this has to be considered. I'd rather be on a very low dose AI for 30 years than be on nolvadex for 30 years.
 
In the 80s and 90s, we did Nolvadex or proviron for estrogen control. Nothing else was available to the general masses

Im assuming it worked? Also will it combat Gyno against nandrolone?
 
You should use caber, prami, or bromo for prolactin issues associated with 19nors.

I have b4 and it didnt help. I ran ralox b4 and it fot rid of it. Hopped back on npp and it came back after a month. Tren doesnt cause it but nandrolone does. Makes them puffy n painful to the touch. They stay that way and pain doesnt go away either months later after dropping npp. I only ran 200test pw with the npp. Since ralox isnt available anymore im gonna try to rid it with nolva. I really like npp but im scared to run it anymore if gives me Gyno everytime. So i was wonderinf if nolva wuld keep it away during cycle. Sorry to hijack thread.

My first cycle of test with no ai my e2 got up to 120 n i didnt get any gyno symptoms so im pretty sure its no e2 related.
 
Last edited:
I have b4 and it didnt help. I ran ralox b4 and it fot rid of it. Hopped back on npp and it came back after a month. Tren doesnt cause it but nandrolone does. Makes them puffy n painful to the touch. They stay that way and pain doesnt go away either months later after dropping npp. I only ran 200test pw with the npp. Since ralox isnt available anymore im gonna try to rid it with nolva. I really like npp but im scared to run it anymore if gives me Gyno everytime. So i was wonderinf if nolva wuld keep it away during cycle. Sorry to hijack thread.

My first cycle of test with no ai my e2 got up to 120 n i didnt get any gyno symptoms so im pretty sure its no e2 related.



Tren is a 19nor. Trenbolone (trienolone) 19-Nor-δ9,11-testosterone

Ralox is still available. Sponsors here have it.

You mention a E2 test, but no prolactin test.

I would be curious to see prolactin test results. With E2 at that range, could be related to those levels, or a combination of both E2 and prolactin.

Final thought, if what you're taking is causing pain and discomfort, don't you think you should stop taking it??
 
Tren is a 19nor. Trenbolone (trienolone) 19-Nor-δ9,11-testosterone

Ralox is still available. Sponsors here have it.

You mention a E2 test, but no prolactin test.

I would be curious to see prolactin test results. With E2 at that range, could be related to those levels, or a combination of both E2 and prolactin.

Final thought, if what you're taking is causing pain and discomfort, don't you think you should stop taking it??

Ive had this issue b4 and prolactin levels were in range and I had puffy nips with pain at the touch also e2 was 20. And like i said its the nandrolone that caused it and it doesnt go away despite coming off it. I'm not running it and i still have the issue. Waiting on this nolva i ordered to cure it like I did once b4 with ralox.
 
If you are on a test dose that will results in elevated E2 levels ( more then normal range) then nolva alone is not only not adequate it would be potentially dangerous to your health
 

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