Thoughts??

[DOGGCRAPP]

The latter route makes sense if you are happy with the amount of mass you've accumulated, and aren't planning to go up a weight class for your next show. If you're looking to put on a ton of LBM, and come in say 15-20 lbs above your stage weight from the previous year, it's going to be really difficult while staying below 10%. Dusty made huge strides by going up near 300 lbs in the off season, but this year he plans to stay below 10% because he's now fine tuning things. He wasn't out-sized by anyone at the USAs, but he needs more mass in certain areas. He made a post at IM to that effect, but if I misinterpreted it hopefully he chimes in.

Nope you are correct in that. We needed to get Dusty to National SuperHeavyweight size. When he started with me he was pretty much weighing in the offseason what he now weighs in at onstage. You obviously cant go up next to Burnieka at one inch taller weighing 225.....and Dustys arms and his back were really subpar...they had to catch up dramatically to his legs (we still laugh at this because this somehow backfired a little bit and now his back and his arms have come up so dramatically that they overshadow other things)....I digress.......I always use 40 pounds as the marker for myself
want to be 255 onstage...better be weighing 295 offseason
want to be a top of the class 198 lighheavy...better be 238 offseason
want to be a top of the class 225 heavy...better be 265 offseason
Its not exact....but its close enough....going to 45 would be even better...but 40 is just about spot on. Look at someone like Kyle Witherspoon who went in the lightheavies in awesome shape....he has to go to the heavies to succeed.....he just wasnt eating enough in the offseason....he came in around 195 and he walks around in the offseason at 225 in unbelievable shape (I would say Tenny shape in the offseason....really hard)....so to become a heavyweight Kyle is going to have to go to about 250 (and thats the least he has to be)....and stay there until its dense feasible tissue that wont be lost in the dieting process (thats the key to this whole thing)......TIME=DENSITY
With Dusty we went up to 297 that first offseason and then he dieted down to 245 on stageish (won the Border States and overall)....so 50 pounds over....but his contest weight jumped up 20 pounds.....then he had the hernia operation and lost 4 months of training there.....we quickly went up to about 313 pounds.....held it and then it all started coming down slowly.....cleaned things up and stayed at 290 (way harder than his previous 290).....cleaned up things a little bit more and stayed at about 285 (rock hard at this weight).....and then came into the USA's at 268...so another 20-23 pound jump in a year.
This year and i just talked to him about this part the other day....I want to put him on a 1x bodypart hit a week split simply because he has the size now....he can stand with anyone.....its there.....it aint going nowhere.....so Aceto wants him to stay at 285ish.....i want to stop doing the 2x every 8 days bodypart plan and i want to hammer his quads, calves, hamstrings and upper chest.....feel like i can do it better this way. This is a rare occurence though where someone is as big as he needs to be for the most part.....I dont come across that often....we still will always try to get him larger but its "dont need to go up high in bodyweight and lets hammer the hell out of the quads" this time around......there are some plus and minus's to doing it this way.
a) would he gain more size in his quads if we went "size pronto" again? probably
b) when its just a few things that need to be fixed is it worth going up to 313 right now? Not really because i think it can get done this way also (not as much size as taking off the governor but enough to make the difference that needs to be made)

 

[BabyBeast05]

I agree, reach your weight and HOLD your weight, the longer you hold it the better i think, and also the way you diet has a lot to do with it, diet much longer and decrease calories less, as in slight calorie decreases. I think so many people decrease calories too much and turns the body into "panic mode". diet long and SLOW is the key, you will retain much more muscle that way. I had a talk with a certain IFBB pro over the USA weekend and this is what he told me I need to do.

for guys trying to pile on some muscle, it makes sense to me to skip a competitive year to grow, hold, and come down slowly.

Thats what I plan to do, try to reach 215, as long as it looks good on me and hold it for as long as I can before I start my long dieting process for a summer show in 2012 and be a thick middle weight. Thats the plan anyway

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

You know who will be a top of the class lightheavy next time around? Shelby...I dont know if you guys have seen his pics but he is about 238 offseason now....going up around 245ish he said---he will stay there until its dense .....and will come down to about 205 in awesome shape and then lose the last seven and come in the show in granite concrete shrinkwrapped condition.

With Shelby you never know he might say screw this....im doing heavyweights....275 here i come!!!! (LOL kidding shelby)

 

[TheOtherOne55]

the knife, spoon, and fork will QUICKLY seperate the weekend wanna be bodybuilder from the true juggernauts in this game.

:headbang:
fuckin great quote BBOY

 

[jp2007]

Here is a question for the guys who stay more lean and don't go 20-25 pounds over contest weight... Do you rely more on a long slow diet to grow into a show, rather than a long slow diet to keep the extra muscle gained by the guys who got 40+ pounds over contest weight?

I would imagine, with not going 20-25 pounds over weight you could more easily grow into a show. But I think with proper diet, training, and supplements you can pretty much always grow/improve into a show.

 

[tkav1980]

Here is a question for the guys who stay more lean and don't go 20-25 pounds over contest weight... Do you rely more on a long slow diet to grow into a show, rather than a long slow diet to keep the extra muscle gained by the guys who got 40+ pounds over contest weight?

I would imagine, with not going 20-25 pounds over weight you could more easily grow into a show. But I think with proper diet, training, and supplements you can pretty much always grow/improve into a show.

the big difference your going to see wiht guys that grow into a show and stay lean all year and guys that work with dante is mainly the rate of accumulation of mass. DC is THE FASTEST WAY to make guys big as shit. thats what its designed to do. can you grow muscle if you dont use DC's methods... sure you can. will you do it as fast, al things being equal? nope. Heres the deal, theres no right way or wrong way, if you find a method YOU TRUST AND BELIEVE IN, stick to that, theres no reason to jump on one bandwagon or another just because other guys did it. if its not the program for you you wont work the program the right way to get the results you want. would you rather be lean all year and grow into a show, or go for the mass and do the work necessary to diet down for the show? its really personal preference.

 

[Shelby]

playing devil's advocate

remember that pushing your weight up real high is probably not the most healthful endeavor. if you're in the older crowd (maybe 35+.. definitely 40+) then i'd really give it some thought. always keep an eye on blood pressure, sleep apnea, etc.
if you do things right, hopefully you only have to push the offseason really hard like that once or maybe twice.

modern day bodybuilding is definitely not about longevity.

 

[Lenny]

Here is a question for the guys who stay more lean and don't go 20-25 pounds over contest weight... Do you rely more on a long slow diet to grow into a show, rather than a long slow diet to keep the extra muscle gained by the guys who got 40+ pounds over contest weight?

I would imagine, with not going 20-25 pounds over weight you could more easily grow into a show. But I think with proper diet, training, and supplements you can pretty much always grow/improve into a show.

When people say growing into a show that means being lighter in the offseason and gaining weight up to competition day such as Dave Pulcinella or Kevin Levrone(I know bad example bc he is freak)...so lets say someone start thier prep at 200, then competes at 215lbs, that to me means growing into a show.

Right now I am around 200lbs up 25 lbs from competition this year, but eventually in order to make a jump to new class, I would assume you need to be another 20-25 lbs higher than that as Dante is pointing out.

Good discussion guys!

 

[Lenny]

yes

remember that pushing your weight up real high is probably not the most healthful endeavor. if you're in the older crowd (maybe 35+.. definitely 40+) then i'd really give it some thought. always keep an eye on blood pressure, sleep apnea, etc.
if you do things right, hopefully you only have to push the offseason really hard like that once or maybe twice.

modern day bodybuilding is definitely not about longevity.

Exactly, my thinking was it may take one big, longer not so pretty offseason to make a true jump!

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Again and i dont think i have to say this but i am just in case: I dont advocate getting fat and dumpy in the offseason....I think in very simplistic terms

1) if you are 200 and want to gain 40 pounds of just pure 100% adipose tissue...just pure bodyfat....is it going to be easy?
No its not going to be easy....and thats just to gain 40 pounds of fat! You would have to eat like a house and it would probably take you at the very minimum 6 months and for alot of mesomorphic and ecto guys maybe a year or more to gain 40 pounds of fat. (and im not talking contest rebound im talking at their current offseason bodyweight)
And thats just to get fat!

2) Now to gain muscle mass which is so much harder to do and your body fights you tooth and nail to do it....how are you going to gain 40 pounds of muscle mass
a) extreme drug use (downside: compromises health)
b) extreme eating (downside: gets you fat if you dont do it correctly)
c) extreme progressive weight training (downside: can get injured)

pick your poison according to your boundaries you create for yourself.
If its extreme eating/progressive weights you have to do everything in your power to make the shift toward creating muscle mass and keeping lean (B-boy allready went over it previously).

Thats why i kind of get befuddled when I see guys on boards saying "and im going to try to gain X amount of muscle mass" i.e. 20-50 pounds and i think to myself "Bro you dont even eat enough to gain that in pure bodyfat....how do you think you are going to eat enough to gain that in muscle mass which is 1000 times harder?

What is the #1 problem in bodybuilding? Getting shredded for shows? Yea its a problem for some. Or gaining or acquiring enough muscle mass to be competitive? I would say 98% of the problems you see on these message boards are someway tied into acquiring enough muscle mass.

I've had trainees that had trouble gaining muscle mass. Almost universally there was one major problem....they could not eat enough. Jason Wojo who won the lightheavys at the JR USA a couple years back is one of those guys....he will tell you himself...he just cannot get the food down the hatch and it has held him back.

Want to grow into a show? Do this, stay very lean in the offseason....eat a bunch of clean food about 25 weeks out (because you now know you have to eat because you have a show on the line, you sure wont miss meals) and while doing so do cardio and use GH and do the other various things you do during contest prep....walla you just grew into a show......and the end result of putting on muscle mass during that prep?

You are now going to wonder why the hell you werent doing some of those exact same things (cardio, key things to keep lean or lose bodyfat, GH etc) during the offseason to grow into the offseason.

 

[powerox]

Again and i dont think i have to say this but i am just in case: I dont advocate getting fat and dumpy in the offseason....I think in very simplistic terms

1) if you are 200 and want to gain 40 pounds of just pure 100% adipose tissue...just pure bodyfat....is it going to be easy?
No its not going to be easy....and thats just to gain 40 pounds of fat! You would have to eat like a house and it would probably take you at the very minimum 6 months and for alot of mesomorphic and ecto guys maybe a year or more to gain 40 pounds of fat. (and im not talking contest rebound im talking at their current offseason bodyweight)
And thats just to get fat!

2) Now to gain muscle mass which is so much harder to do and your body fights you tooth and nail to do it....how are you going to gain 40 pounds of muscle mass
a) extreme drug use (downside: compromises health)
b) extreme eating (downside: gets you fat if you dont do it correctly)
c) extreme progressive weight training (downside: can get injured)

pick your poison according to your boundaries you create for yourself.
If its extreme eating/progressive weights you have to do everything in your power to make the shift toward creating muscle mass and keeping lean (B-boy allready went over it previously).

Thats why i kind of get befuddled when I see guys on boards saying "and im going to try to gain X amount of muscle mass" i.e. 20-50 pounds and i think to myself "Bro you dont even eat enough to gain that in pure bodyfat....how do you think you are going to eat enough to gain that in muscle mass which is 1000 times harder?

What is the #1 problem in bodybuilding? Getting shredded for shows? Yea its a problem for some. Or gaining or acquiring enough muscle mass to be competitive? I would say 98% of the problems you see on these message boards are someway tied into acquiring enough muscle mass.

I've had trainees that had trouble gaining muscle mass. Almost universally there was one major problem....they could not eat enough. Jason Wojo who won the lightheavys at the JR USA a couple years back is one of those guys....he will tell you himself...he just cannot get the food down the hatch and it has held him back.

Want to grow into a show? Do this, stay very lean in the offseason....eat a bunch of clean food about 25 weeks out (because you now know you have to eat because you have a show on the line, you sure wont miss meals) and while doing so do cardio and use GH and do the other various things you do during contest prep....walla you just grew into a show......and the end result of putting on muscle mass during that prep?

Haha! I've been around this stuff for 30 or so years now, and this is always the problem! I have never had an eating prob. myself, it came naturally for me. *LOL*.

We've got guys running IV's to get extra calories at my gym. *LOL*. They don't play!.


PO

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Just for shits and giggles (im stealing this from Betito)

Alfonso Del Rio a few years back

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Then.....Goes up to 352 pounds while training like a beast

(Wow thats not too pretty is it?) check the bottom pic of the 3 below

Probably didnt have the chicks screaming his way because of his hunkiness.....but lets see what the end result was in the post below.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

The journey? It sure as hell aint always pretty....but lets not deny the end result

 

[Dad]

This, this is the kind of discussion that really makes Pro Muscle!

 

[chris250]

Just for shits and giggles (im stealing this from Betito)

Alfonso Del Rio a few years back

what was his contest weight from start to end ?

 

[tenny]

This, this is the kind of discussion that really makes Pro Muscle!

could not agree more

 

[betito]

what was his contest weight from start to end ?

Now he is like 260-270, he is a tall guy and needs every pound of muscle, in the previous pics dunno what he weighed. The bloated pics were his ofseason after getting his pro card. He topped the inclines at 405 and the squats at 660 pounds that year, so the bloat was in part to help his joints survive such a battle. He will compete this weekend, of course he is not shawn Ray, but he realy squezed his genetics ala Paco Bautista...

The bulked pics were the offseason after getting his pro card, he got it at 237 pounds I think and now he is like 269-272. So it´s like putting 30 pounds on a pro card winning phisique

Now he stays lean in the offseason to refine his phisique, this is a guest posing in Spain this year (posing starts at 0:37)
Alfonso guest posing

 

[Shelby]

Now he is like 260-270, he is a tall guy and needs every pound of muscle, in the previous pics dunno what he weighed. The bloated pics were his ofseason after getting his pro card. He topped the inclines at 405 and the squats at 660 pounds that year, so the bloat was in part to help his joints survive such a battle. He will compete this weekend, of course he is not shawn Ray, but he realy squezed his genetics ala Paco Bautista...

The bulked pics were the offseason after getting his pro card, he got it at 237 pounds I think and now he is like 269-272. So it´s like putting 30 pounds on a pro card winning phisique

Now he stays lean in the offseason to refine his phisique, this is a guest posing in Spain this year (posing starts at 0:37)
Alfonso guest posing

His physique kind of reminds me of Dorian Yates in that guest posing.

 

[Emery]

His physique kind of reminds me of Dorian Yates in that guest posing.[/QUOTE

His back is huge!!!