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THREAD: The God Paradox and Universality Thread

OuchThatHurts

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Starting this thread for everyone to discuss their philosophy on God, science, faith, theology, eschatology, etc. We would enjoy reading your thoughts.

Just one rule. Please don't flame other members for their beliefs. Use this thread to lift others up and enlighten, not knock anyone down. We're all seekers in one form or another and we all have our own journeys.

Let's hear about them.

I'll jump in. First, I'm agnostic. In other words, I simply don't know. But I will tell you what I do know (and don't know) but just a warning that my conclusions are arrived at logically and through deduction and scientific knowledge (physics, mathematics, laws, etc).

Sect A) The Beginning, What We Can Know

In science, there is a universal law: cause and effect. If we examine the very nature of cause and effect, we can't help but see that every effect, everything that "is", was "caused" into being by something preceeding it. Without exception. And if we go back far enough to the beginning of the universe and beyond, we find that even the universe itself exists "via creatio ex nihilo" or "by way of creation out of nothingness" - something from nothing.

Impossible right? Should be. But something caused all this into being. This singularity which expanded into our vast universe. So let's go back to cause and effect. If we go back far enough, we come to a root "cause"; the very first cause; the cause that had nothing preceeding it. For if it did, then that would be the original cause, and so on.

So the truth is inescapable: this original cause had no beginning. It just eternally always was. And unfortunately, we can understand neither eternity or infinity because neither comports with our understanding of the universe; a finite universe. As we say, "As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be..."

So by simple deduction, we know that there is an omnipresent "cause" or "being" that exists outside the finite universe of time, space, galaxies, matter, systems, et al. This we can know just using the immutable law of cause and effect.

Therein lies a problem, though. Since we ourselves are finite, we cannot understand the nature of this infinite "cause". Wherefore, "To understand God is to understand that God is ultimately unknowable." At keast for now (but let's continue on anyway).

Sect B) Creation Of Life

This is a rather easy one. Life, like the universe, did not just simply happen. There is no law built in to the periodic table of elements (you've seen the chart) that all the individual elements such as hydrogen, carbon, sulfur, iron, gold, etc all mixed together in the right quantities under the right universal conditions will always spring to life. No law at all. It simply doesn't happen. And why should it? There is no reason for it. Or is there? (I'll get to more of this below)

Even the simplest of life forms, single-celled organisms, are of massive complexity. That all these individual parts and processes would simply fall into place alive is just not mathematically possible. If you can imagine the odds of a car, already running, just falling into place you are getting the idea.

And if that wasn't already enough of a flex, imagine then that this first life on Earth would eventually be conscious and aware of not only it's own existence but of the existence of the universe itself! It just doesn't happen. Yet it did.

So as per Sect A above, we can know that the universe was created in just such a way that it would one day be able to gaze upon itself and be aware of it's own existence. How can we know this? Because we are a part of the universe and we are aware. And if nothing in the universe was aware, would it even exist at all? Quantum theory says no. And worse, it's a verifiable fact.

Sect C) Human Limitations

Humans can only envision that which our senses have seen, heard, or felt at some point in our lives. A dog has no cones in its retinas so a dog cannot see colors. A dog cannot see a rainbow in the sky. Does that mean rainbows don't exist? Of course not. Might we have similar limitations? Absolutely. And to assume we don't is nothing but pure hubris.

So (per Sect B) everything seen and unseen are not fully understood. Our minds have limits, our senses have limits, and our instruments have limits. So how do we close this gap between the explainable and unexplainable? How do we break through the impenetrable wall of our own limitations? We create "gods". And what do these gods tell us? Some pretty incredible things, truly. And we can come to a tacit yet fully scientific belief that what has been written already is quite possibly accurate. This is where philosophy comes in. And we can deduce some pretty interesting things using philosophy (which is also a branch of science).

Sect D) Gods And Other Divine Figures

Let me take just one example of what I believe these gods have shown us, if only philosophically, and see if we can reconcile some of these things to come to some greater understanding of universal truth described above in Sects A, B, and C. I study and read many ancient texts and philosophical works because many have strikingly similar words, phrases, and events so for the remainder, these are my own personal thoughts.

The first I'll talk about is from Abrahamic and Judeo-Christian theologies where it is written and believed by many that a being appeared to Moses on Mt Sinai on the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 b.c.e. Whether this event actually occurred as written, I do not know. But that is immaterial as to what I take away from this tale. Which is that I find it fascinating and it brings me closer to my own beliefs in a divine creator and living conscious universe (even if still agnostic).

As written, it seems a being of great power appeared to Moses in the land of Egypt to impart evidence of its existence and gift to him commands (laws) as to how mankind was to approach it.

This being spoke to Moses and after having given Moses these commands which today we call The Commandments, Moses asked the being, "Whom shall I say has sent me?"

The being replied, "Tell them, I Am sent you."

This "I Am" commanded that we should not dare make any images of it. These were the first of the commands! Even before killing, adultery, and envy. But why? The only logical conclusion is that since everything (seen and unseen) are mere constructs of things that we have seen and abstracted from the visible universe, we would be insulting this "I Am" terribly; i.e. like a cat or a dog trying to convey or illustrate consciousness.

These constructs are created by our minds because we have abstracted them from the world around us using our paltry senses. So along those lines, we can picture a blue horse in our minds because we have seen a horse and we have seen the color blue. And we can construct the blue horse in our minds by combining two totally different abstractions! It's an incredible feat of the mind. Obviously, there are no blue horses yet we can construct one in our minds.

But getting back to the "I Am", we read that thousands of years later, when Y'shua walked the Earth in Judea, he said, "Amen, I tell you that before your father Abraham, I Am." Hell, they tried to kill him! I mean, how dare anyone use the name of "I Am" (the name of "God") to describe himself, right?

So we can conclude that "eyes have not seen, and ears have not heard" the universal "I Am". So how can we possibly make an image of something we do not, and cannot, see or know? To do so would be to reduce the astoundingly infinite universal "Cause", the "I Am", the "I Exist", into something small and finite based on human precepts and perceptions. Pathetic really. It's no wonder "I Am" would be offended by this. Nevertheless, it's obvious that "I Am" wants to be known. Or at least that we are aware of "It". (Please note that I'm beginning to use proper nouns as "His" name).

So what is the most logical way this "I Am" could be further known? "And he became flesh and dwelt among us." Y'shua or "Jesus" as we call Him today. Thus, "Nobody can come to the Father but by Me." (more on this later)

Sect D) Conclusion

I have much more to say and unpack here so let's get a discussion going and "pull the thread on this sweater" and see what we can come up with. There is no monopoly on wisdom and if this can bring you to a life of fulfillment than that is a good thing. Remember, let's keep it to a discussion and not a debate. Express your views, comment on others, and in a spirit of goodwill and check your anger, bitterness, and hatred at the door. Any disruptive or meaningless comments or insults will be deleted regardless of your status on this board. This is to remain a safe place to openly express your thoughts and ideas. Have a great week!

@Muay Thai - "Ask and ye shall receive"
 

OuchThatHurts

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Moved to Counseling Forum...
 

Type-IIx

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Ouch, I appreciate tremendously the effort and thought put into these existential matters (and am envious of your retirement lifestyle, giving you the time :)).

I see evidence of God on a daily basis, and think that the broad scientific community's atheistic promulgations as truth will be judged harshly. Put simply, institutions that form early thinking on these matters in impressionable youth posit that you must be basically stupid to rely on faith-based modes of understanding, that include a deity, or as they might put it, "imaginary friend," to both survive great struggles and/or to frame some explanation for the broad existential questions that face us.

It used to be commonplace for learned men to see evidence of God or a Creator or the Divine in scientific scholarship, and it strikes me as particularly pernicious, having been exposed to it potently in my schooling, how the dogma of modern secularists have embedded themselves in institutions of higher learning to society's detriment.

There was unquestionably a singularity, some external force must have put into play the basic (and sophisticated) rules of physical reality (much of which exists outside of senses that humanity can ever possibly ascertain, not to mind sense or measure) so as to create intelligent life that can sense its own mortality, wonder at the universe, and that is capable to devote its existence to create fruits that benefit humanity in its societies, or even to destroy societies, with their free-will and capacity to do good & bad works.
 

OuchThatHurts

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Ouch, I appreciate tremendously the effort and thought put into these existential matters (and am envious of your retirement lifestyle, giving you the time :)).
Don't be too envious. I was in the waiting room to get a mole burned off my shoulder. My dress shirts seem to catch on it. Very annoying. But I have been up since 4AM yo finish off my meals ready for the rest of the week. Because I have a feeling my buds are going to get me wrecked on St. Patty's.
 

OuchThatHurts

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Ouch, I appreciate tremendously the effort and thought put into these existential matters (and am envious of your retirement lifestyle, giving you the time :)).

I see evidence of God on a daily basis, and think that the broad scientific community's atheistic promulgations as truth will be judged harshly. Put simply, institutions that form early thinking on these matters in impressionable youth posit that you must be basically stupid to rely on faith-based modes of understanding, that include a deity, or as they might put it, "imaginary friend," to both survive great struggles and/or to frame some explanation for the broad existential questions that face us.

It used to be commonplace for learned men to see evidence of God or a Creator or the Divine in scientific scholarship, and it strikes me as particularly pernicious, having been exposed to it potently in my schooling, how the dogma of modern secularists have embedded themselves in institutions of higher learning to society's detriment.

There was unquestionably a singularity, some external force must have put into play the basic (and sophisticated) rules of physical reality (much of which exists outside of senses that humanity can ever possibly ascertain, not to mind sense or measure) so as to create intelligent life that can sense its own mortality, wonder at the universe, and that is capable to devote its existence to create fruits that benefit humanity in its societies, or even to destroy societies, with their free-will and capacity to do good & bad works.
Other than my mandatory CE, I haven't been in a classroom in a long, long time. I don't know how much of what you said is true or false. Although I'm glad you feel interested in seeking out the meaning of existence and/or religious fulfillment (whatever that may mean). The kids I deal with are probably 75-90% believers or agnostic while only perhaps 1 in 10 are full blown atheist (if there is such a thing).

It would seem to me that any learned person when reaching the boundaries of scientific knowledge, would begin to think more philosophically about life's meaning and purpose. Rather than simply just the accumulation of knowledge which will have no use in the eternal void of nihilism. Atheism, IMO, requires a certain amount of faith, also. Albeit, in the opposite direction with no proof that there isn't something more. But that's just my suspicion. I'm sure any atheist would take serious issue with that suspicion.

Some of the greatest minds in history eventually came around to some belief as they reached the boundaries of human knowledge. The Ph in PhD is philosophy. Philosophy has, and always will preceed science. And science can only build on nature. Never in reverse.
 

stackdizzy

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Well this is a deep dive but a great topic non the less. I'll comment my views on this in relation to what has been mentioned above. Maybe add some things.

Universal law/Cause and effect. This is our current understanding of causation. You really need to question even this. Can something be created from nothing that is perhaps beyond our understanding. Sure, one could say the big bang theory proves that, but again that's just a theory. So what's right? How do we even know? What it was, who it was is all open for debate. Religion preaches that the gods were around forever/infinite so they must have been created from nothing, but wait. If they had a beginning they must have an end. So they must have never been created so causation fails there. Same could be said for the universe nothing caused it and it's been around forever. Or the big bang caused it. Causation fails there too. So really just have faith in one theory or the other. Or we fully don't understand or grasp the possibility that cause and effect have exceptions. Possibly even being outright wrong or not applicable when it comes to these matters. Also possible that that the universe was caused by something we just don't understand. Any theory you can come up with also be able to be considered here. God, spaghetti monster, parallel universe, bing bang, Freddy Krueger.....anything we simply don't know.

Creationism vs evolution, again no solid answer here. No series of deductions proves either one, pick one and see what makes.more sense to you. Either way your not wrong nor right. At least you can't prove it anyway.

Creating God's. I personally think that's what someone did is just make up some gods. People are still doing it today. You cannot tell me that the bible is true. It's so old and has had so many revisions that the true message is probably lost but that's not saying that it was true to begin with. And I can sit and shoot holes in it but that's not what this is about I am explaining how I've come to my conclusions. Religion is a useful tool for control and makes money today. So what's to say it hasn't always been.

I am, while I agree with you that the story might not be true and in fact I would say way more likely. Ok this guy goes on top of a mountain and some other being talks to him and gives him ten commandments. If this shit happened today the guy would be a quack. So more likely a magical being on top of a mountain with some guy or simply someone made it up? What if one of your employees, kids, wife, gf came home an hour late and said this shit to you? Had a list a ten commandments and shit. Bingo you would think they had a mental breakdown of some sort. But if it happened 2000 years ago it makes total sense. Especially when you realize the origin.of the story which is sketchy at best.

Singularity I agree with this and think and some point it had to happen as we understand things today. What was and when the singularity was we will never know.

Think more philosophically about life's meaning and purpose? I think most people reach this point in their life so they go on their own spiritual journey and each one finds their own subjective understanding of it. Whatever that may be. An atheist is no different he is just likely to come to the conclusion that there is no meaning or greater purpose other than what he comes up with.

As far as the god paradox if he always was and always is. He would have to be both good and evil at the same time. Most good he would do would be at another person's lose. Like for instance there was a flood here about 15 years ago like 4 people died. A friend of mines house was flooded they had to move and found their dream house cheap not too far away. My friend's wife was telling me she saw gods hand in it all the way. I was like that great but later I was thinking how out of touch she was or this god isn't who she thinks he is because if it all was his doing. he killed 4 people and someone got screwed selling their house cheap not to mention that tons of homes and crops were destroyed due to the flood. And all just so they could get a new house. Beyond healing the sick any good is most likely someone's bad

So that being said you can't have the perception of good without the perception of evil. So God if there was one could not be infinitely good like some Christians believe. Also believe everything was just good until Satan arrived but God created him and God is all knowing. So God would have to know what he created. So God purposely created evil.

If God were indeed real or real as portrayed in the bible you would be able to find a study that show prayers actually work. Yet there are so few studies done on healing the sick with prayer vs not praying because they simply show it doesn't work. I think you can find one from a church that shows it worked. You can also find one that shows it's actually harmful. And the two other I read showed a wash. But if prayers were actually answered you would be able to prove that they do easily. Statistically thinking though they don't work

I am what you would call an atheist because I have zero faith in religion. I don't think it's. A religion as some people say because the lack of believing in something is not something.

That being said I actually wish on a certain level that I could subscribe to a religion. As I think most western religions are not for me but I see the eastern religions as a path to inner happiness and content.

Not arguing with.anyone just showing my views on the topics that's all might have more later.
 

OuchThatHurts

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Well this is a deep dive but a great topic non the less. I'll comment my views on this in relation to what has been mentioned above. Maybe add some things.

Universal law/Cause and effect. This is our current understanding of causation. You really need to question even this. Can something be created from nothing that is perhaps beyond our understanding. Sure, one could say the big bang theory proves that, but again that's just a theory. So what's right? How do we even know? What it was, who it was is all open for debate. Religion preaches that the gods were around forever/infinite so they must have been created from nothing, but wait. If they had a beginning they must have an end. So they must have never been created so causation fails there. Same could be said for the universe nothing caused it and it's been around forever. Or the big bang caused it. Causation fails there too. So really just have faith in one theory or the other. Or we fully don't understand or grasp the possibility that cause and effect have exceptions. Possibly even being outright wrong or not applicable when it comes to these matters. Also possible that that the universe was caused by something we just don't understand. Any theory you can come up with also be able to be considered here. God, spaghetti monster, parallel universe, bing bang, Freddy Krueger.....anything we simply don't know.

Creationism vs evolution, again no solid answer here. No series of deductions proves either one, pick one and see what makes.more sense to you. Either way your not wrong nor right. At least you can't prove it anyway.

Creating God's. I personally think that's what someone did is just make up some gods. People are still doing it today. You cannot tell me that the bible is true. It's so old and has had so many revisions that the true message is probably lost but that's not saying that it was true to begin with. And I can sit and shoot holes in it but that's not what this is about I am explaining how I've come to my conclusions. Religion is a useful tool for control and makes money today. So what's to say it hasn't always been.

I am, while I agree with you that the story might not be true and in fact I would say way more likely. Ok this guy goes on top of a mountain and some other being talks to him and gives him ten commandments. If this shit happened today the guy would be a quack. So more likely a magical being on top of a mountain with some guy or simply someone made it up? What if one of your employees, kids, wife, gf came home an hour late and said this shit to you? Had a list a ten commandments and shit. Bingo you would think they had a mental breakdown of some sort. But if it happened 2000 years ago it makes total sense. Especially when you realize the origin.of the story which is sketchy at best.

Singularity I agree with this and think and some point it had to happen as we understand things today. What was and when the singularity was we will never know.

Think more philosophically about life's meaning and purpose? I think most people reach this point in their life so they go on their own spiritual journey and each one finds their own subjective understanding of it. Whatever that may be. An atheist is no different he is just likely to come to the conclusion that there is no meaning or greater purpose other than what he comes up with.

As far as the god paradox if he always was and always is. He would have to be both good and evil at the same time. Most good he would do would be at another person's lose. Like for instance there was a flood here about 15 years ago like 4 people died. A friend of mines house was flooded they had to move and found their dream house cheap not too far away. My friend's wife was telling me she saw gods hand in it all the way. I was like that great but later I was thinking how out of touch she was or this god isn't who she thinks he is because if it all was his doing. he killed 4 people and someone got screwed selling their house cheap not to mention that tons of homes and crops were destroyed due to the flood. And all just so they could get a new house. Beyond healing the sick any good is most likely someone's bad

So that being said you can't have the perception of good without the perception of evil. So God if there was one could not be infinitely good like some Christians believe. Also believe everything was just good until Satan arrived but God created him and God is all knowing. So God would have to know what he created. So God purposely created evil.

If God were indeed real or real as portrayed in the bible you would be able to find a study that show prayers actually work. Yet there are so few studies done on healing the sick with prayer vs not praying because they simply show it doesn't work. I think you can find one from a church that shows it worked. You can also find one that shows it's actually harmful. And the two other I read showed a wash. But if prayers were actually answered you would be able to prove that they do easily. Statistically thinking though they don't work

I am what you would call an atheist because I have zero faith in religion. I don't think it's. A religion as some people say because the lack of believing in something is not something.

That being said I actually wish on a certain level that I could subscribe to a religion. As I think most western religions are not for me but I see the eastern religions as a path to inner happiness and content.

Not arguing with.anyone just showing my views on the topics that's all might have more later.
I don't see your point regarding cause and effect. Which is cool. But if you disregard cause and effect or think it's inconsistent, then of course the universe (the totality of all existence entirely) and all of this could have just magically appeared. But it didn't just magically appear. And if it did, why did it? Do you see what you did there? What happened there was you offered a fairly weak refutation of a scientific law followed by an "I don't know". Which strangely, is not very far from what I said. I don't know either. But at least give me one example of something that exists where nothing caused it into being. Just one example.

If we are to approach life with the nihilistic view that life has no meaning or purpose and we die and go back to the eternal void of nothingness from which we came, why are you not getting a BJ from a gorgeous prostitute with no gag reflex while stealing money from a bank, killing everyone in your way, in order to go off to Dubai to do cocaine off the top off a chocolate sundae? Life is completely meaningless so go! Do it! If you're killed in the process, so what? You won't know or care that you're dead and even before you were killed, you were just a sack of decaying meat like everyone else anyway right? Why are you on an internet board typing when you could be sunrise parasailing on meth in Belize? LOL!

But on a more serious note, why are you conflating religion with spirituality/the unexplainable/metaphysical? What has one got to do with the other? I mean, it's fine if you want to do that but I don't think you must to do that. If anything, I would say religion is the bastardization and monetization of the living cosmos. But I can certainly see your point.

I agree with what you said about evil. And I will respond by saying I believe (keyword "believe") that evil, insofar that it exists is at least somewhat "good". Good being a relative term and alternate name for what I believe is a universal consciousness. In other words, if the universe, multiverse, cosmos disregarded it, it would cease to exist. And I never claimed that the universal consciousness was entirely benevolent at all. Nature gives and takes away life indiscriminately. She has no conscience. Hurricanes, floods, earthquakes... I don't have the answer for why it was created as it is. But a painting can't ask its artist why he's using red instead of blue either. I don't make the rules. But since I have to live in it, why not try to further my understanding of it - and thus, my role in it?

Just some meandering thoughts on this great morning. I'm off to torture my upper back, lats and delts. Talk to you soon!
 

Cerberus777

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IMHO there's to many occurrences that are exact, needed for life, to not have a creator and all the religions are humans trying to understand it.
 

OuchThatHurts

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As if the universe was aware of our discussion, this article just popped up in my Twitter feed at 9:00AM... kinda weird to be honest.

 

stackdizzy

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I don't see your point regarding cause and effect. Which is cool. But if you disregard cause and effect or think it's inconsistent, then of course the universe (the totality of all existence entirely) and all of this could have just magically appeared. But it didn't just magically appear. And if it did, why did it? Do you see what you did there? What happened there was you offered a fairly weak refutation of a scientific law followed by an "I don't know". Which strangely, is not very far from what I said. I don't know either. But at least give me one example of something that exists where nothing caused it into being. Just one example.

If we are to approach life with the nihilistic view that life has no meaning or purpose and we die and go back to the eternal void of nothingness from which we came, why are you not getting a BJ from a gorgeous prostitute with no gag reflex while stealing money from a bank, killing everyone in your way, in order to go off to Dubai to do cocaine off the top off a chocolate sundae? Life is completely meaningless so go! Do it! If you're killed in the process, so what? You won't know or care that you're dead and even before you were killed, you were just a sack of decaying meat like everyone else anyway right? Why are you on an internet board typing when you could be sunrise parasailing on meth in Belize? LOL!

But on a more serious note, why are you conflating religion with spirituality/the unexplainable/metaphysical? What has one got to do with the other? I mean, it's fine if you want to do that but I don't think you must to do that. If anything, I would say religion is the bastardization and monetization of the living cosmos. But I can certainly see your point.

I agree with what you said about evil. And I will respond by saying I believe (keyword "believe") that evil, insofar that it exists is at least somewhat "good". Good being a relative term and alternate name for what I believe is a universal consciousness. In other words, if the universe, multiverse, cosmos disregarded it, it would cease to exist. And I never claimed that the universal consciousness was entirely benevolent at all. Nature gives and takes away life indiscriminately. She has no conscience. Hurricanes, floods, earthquakes... I don't have the answer for why it was created as it is. But a painting can't ask its artist why he's using red instead of blue either. I don't make the rules. But since I have to live in it, why not try to further my understanding of it - and thus, my role in it?

Just some meandering thoughts on this great morning. I'm off to torture my upper back, lats and delts. Talk to you soon!
Ok first let me qualify that I am expressing my beliefs and am in no way challenging anyone's beliefs. I was just giving my beliefs in relation to what was brought up. As long as we agree we are just sharing information and not offending anyone I will continue as I personally love this topic. I doubt I will change anyone's values here and that is not my intention. So that being said let's continue.

Cause and effect. What I said was actually very similar to what you wrote though where we are different is you said the big bang was caused by an omnipresent force or being. I was trying to explain that if the big bang couldn't have happened without this being then how did the being come about? If it was just around forever why couldn't the universe be around forever and science just hasn't been able to explain why that is so. In physics cause and effect only exist because of time. So if the universe or a being is outside of time there is no cause and effect, just a pattern. Outside of time cause and effect doesn't exist. So really with that information anything could have just popped into existence. It's just unknown. There seams to be two prevailing theories regarding how we came about. One the big bang and two God or a godlike being. I was trying to convey that they both would need a singularity to exist themselves and just because one is popular does.not make it true. One would think it's strange that God gets a pass on cause and effect but the universe doesn't. I think that thinking is biased.


Nihilism is the rejection of religion and moral principles. Without religion one can have a moral code. Or even standards or laws that society as a whole must follow in order for it to continue peacefully. This whole line of thinking that you should go kill people because there is no god Is unbelievable. Is God the only thing to keep people from killing people? We can't have a society if everyday you leave the house it's kill or be killed. That is if someone didn't break in and kill you in your sleep because no god right. Society would simply not be able to function without laws. And mainly I don't do that stuff because I have no desire to do that stuff or I don't do the crime if I can't do the time. (It may sounds.bizarre but there is nothing I'd rather be doing right now than writing this.) You only have one go around so why spend it in jail? And I totally agree that your just a sack.of dying meat like everyone else and you won't care if your dead. In fact I say I won't care if I'm dead a lot. Fearing death is really a waste of time even if your religious and your going to heaven. Why would you fear it? that's not saying you should go out looking for it but times up for everyone at some point.

As far as meaning and purpose this is all subjective. It's up to each individual to find that for themselves I personally hope they do. You don't need religion to find meaning and purpose.

Why are you conflating religion with spirituality/the unexplainable/metaphysical? I wasn't aware I was doing that but I would lump them together simply because they all require a level of faith to believe in them. Maybe not the unexplainable in certain cases

As far as your role in the cosmos I hope you find it!
 

OuchThatHurts

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Ok first let me qualify that I am expressing my beliefs and am in no way challenging anyone's beliefs. I was just giving my beliefs in relation to what was brought up. As long as we agree we are just sharing information and not offending anyone I will continue as I personally love this topic. I doubt I will change anyone's values here and that is not my intention. So that being said let's continue.

Cause and effect. What I said was actually very similar to what you wrote though where we are different is you said the big bang was caused by an omnipresent force or being. I was trying to explain that if the big bang couldn't have happened without this being then how did the being come about? If it was just around forever why couldn't the universe be around forever and science just hasn't been able to explain why that is so. In physics cause and effect only exist because of time. So if the universe or a being is outside of time there is no cause and effect, just a pattern. Outside of time cause and effect doesn't exist. So really with that information anything could have just popped into existence. It's just unknown. There seams to be two prevailing theories regarding how we came about. One the big bang and two God or a godlike being. I was trying to convey that they both would need a singularity to exist themselves and just because one is popular does.not make it true. One would think it's strange that God gets a pass on cause and effect but the universe doesn't. I think that thinking is biased.


Nihilism is the rejection of religion and moral principles. Without religion one can have a moral code. Or even standards or laws that society as a whole must follow in order for it to continue peacefully. This whole line of thinking that you should go kill people because there is no god Is unbelievable. Is God the only thing to keep people from killing people? We can't have a society if everyday you leave the house it's kill or be killed. That is if someone didn't break in and kill you in your sleep because no god right. Society would simply not be able to function without laws. And mainly I don't do that stuff because I have no desire to do that stuff or I don't do the crime if I can't do the time. (It may sounds.bizarre but there is nothing I'd rather be doing right now than writing this.) You only have one go around so why spend it in jail? And I totally agree that your just a sack.of dying meat like everyone else and you won't care if your dead. In fact I say I won't care if I'm dead a lot. Fearing death is really a waste of time even if your religious and your going to heaven. Why would you fear it? that's not saying you should go out looking for it but times up for everyone at some point.

As far as meaning and purpose this is all subjective. It's up to each individual to find that for themselves I personally hope they do. You don't need religion to find meaning and purpose.

Why are you conflating religion with spirituality/the unexplainable/metaphysical? I wasn't aware I was doing that but I would lump them together simply because they all require a level of faith to believe in them. Maybe not the unexplainable in certain cases

As far as your role in the cosmos I hope you find it!
Excellent! We're actually not that far apart. The only place I see a fork in the road is the notion that the big bang or expansion theory assumes without proof that or universe's expansion was the beginning. And I was probably unclear that I don't know if the creative force is a being. This is where I don't know. Is it a being? Certainly not a being as we understand them. I think of it more like a force. A single ant has nothing. But a colony of ants has a collective intelligence with the individual ants acting like cells in a single organism. Perhaps even our living planet has a collective intelligence. It even has a name; Gaia. Perhaps all the conscious organisms throughout the universe have a collective intelligence.

If you believe in the expansion theory as I do, you must know that everything is entanged at the quantum level. Another thing to observe firsthand is Young's Double Slit Experiment. Where we can observe firsthand that our consciousness changes the results simply based on our observation. We collapse the probability wave just by looking at it. As I the particles know they're being observed. It's bizarre. We create reality. At least at the subatomic level up to small molecules.

One thing is for certain is that the universe is far stranger than we ever imagined.
 

pickapeck

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I will be extremely brief. We are the only creature, to our knowledge, that can conceive of something extremely complex that exists in the future and create it. That has the spark of divinity. It would be arrogant to stand firm that we as humans are the only being that can create even our level of complexity whilst we look outward, upward and observe the vastness and beauty of the creation.
 

dcbreaks11

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If we are to approach life with the nihilistic view that life has no meaning or purpose and we die and go back to the eternal void of nothingness from which we came, why are you not getting a BJ from a gorgeous prostitute with no gag reflex while stealing money from a bank, killing everyone in your way, in order to go off to Dubai to do cocaine off the top off a chocolate sundae? Life is completely meaningless so go! Do it! If you're killed in the process, so what? You won't know or care that you're dead and even before you were killed, you were just a sack of decaying meat like everyone else anyway right? Why are you on an internet board typing when you could be sunrise parasailing on meth in Belize? LOL!
I agree with this wholeheartedly. If I ever discovered there were no afterlife, I'm doing whatever tf I want, whenever I want. I dont think I could cause harm to other people though, that just seems unnecessary.
 

pistonpump

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Love these posts but I'm too lazy to form a long post. Very good points and thought provoking. I do believe that the universe as we know it is infinite. Each living thing is tied to the same line of energy or consciousness it's the same life force that made everything into existence. We as physical beings are here to feel, to be in a tangible world that still is able to wonder us with questions we will never answer. Hiding truths from ourselves to play a game for eternity a means for a singularity to for lack of the better word, entertain ourselves.
The joys of life along with the sorrows, are part of being a conscious limited lifespan organism. Time is a construct of our mind so embedded we can't even think about anything that doesn't involve time. If u take time out of the equation it's infinity and nothing all at once.
 

stackdizzy

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Excellent! We're actually not that far apart. The only place I see a fork in the road is the notion that the big bang or expansion theory assumes without proof that or universe's expansion was the beginning. And I was probably unclear that I don't know if the creative force is a being. This is where I don't know. Is it a being? Certainly not a being as we understand them. I think of it more like a force. A single ant has nothing. But a colony of ants has a collective intelligence with the individual ants acting like cells in a single organism. Perhaps even our living planet has a collective intelligence. It even has a name; Gaia. Perhaps all the conscious organisms throughout the universe have a collective intelligence.

If you believe in the expansion theory as I do, you must know that everything is entanged at the quantum level. Another thing to observe firsthand is Young's Double Slit Experiment. Where we can observe firsthand that our consciousness changes the results simply based on our observation. We collapse the probability wave just by looking at it. As I the particles know they're being observed. It's bizarre. We create reality. At least at the subatomic level up to small molecules.

One thing is for certain is that the universe is far stranger than we ever imagined.
I think for the sake of simplicity we can call it a being. If it does exist it is a being of some sort.

I think that scientist all agree that the universe is expanding and has been measured to be expanding. Though the possibility of it.being closed, open or flat is there I think generally scientist think it is flat and ever expanding away from the big bang. I think they think it's flat only because it supports the big bang theory. So who knows. I have no opinion here other than I simply don't know.
That's just my take.
 

OuchThatHurts

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LOVING THESE REPLIES! 👊
 

OuchThatHurts

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I agree with this wholeheartedly. If I ever discovered there were no afterlife, I'm doing whatever tf I want, whenever I want. I dont think I could cause harm to other people though, that just seems unnecessary.
We couldn't cause others harm but again, we are good-natured people. But if nothing beyond this exists though, none of it matters. Life, death, it's all meaningless. In fact, this planet was doing just fine without any of us. I get a good laugh out of this Twitter account:

FB_mobile_007.jpg
 

j2048b

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Great read and @OuchThatHurts i like your thinking...i Believe In Jesus, and there is a God...but i also believe in evolution because everything evolves, everything changes...The Lord said let there be light and whalaaa you have the biggest of the bangs that ever was.... so did the "big bang" ocurr? yes, yes it did, but it ocurred because God said it to be.... now time...time is another thing, as we do not live in the same time and space of god or "gods" because a day to God as as a 1000yrs? to us...did it take God 7 "days" to create everything? yes it could of but by who's idea of time? 7,000 yrs in our mind of how time works perhaps? we see it all differently...because moses and adam and everyone lived for how long? We guesstimate, thousands of years....right? then mans time was cut short....so if these people lived for 1000+ yrs....based on who's concept of time.....


and then we watch certain things on the tube and other apps and its interesting to see how others perceive God, and satan, and good vs evil, and moral vs unmoral.... I do believe Jesus is who he said he was.... thats up to me and me only to decide... others may see him as a messenger, a fable fairy tale, and other types of deities etc can all be the same....butttt with everything we unearth, and everything we find, its very hard to believe we have been here for billions of years....in the old Testament, u see God as being a God who will not be disrespected and if he says go, u go, if not he can smite you right there...i think by the end of the old testament he knew he had to choose a different path or all human kind would eventually be killed because of free will to say yes and no....Then you have babylon, they built a tower, or ladder to the heavens and were freely coming and going.... then what happened? stuff happened and the languages were thrown about and the tower destroyed so there was no longer a way to go to and from.....so Along came Jesus....the way, the truth and the light, the only now clear way to God is thru his son....

there are a bunch of people i watch on the tube... and they all have amazing ideas of of ancient egypt and ancient civilizations.... do i believe we were the first to inhabit this place....no.... they were thrown out of heaven...they brought with them multitudes of knowledge, and themselves lived as "gods". Because they could... they decided to rebel, and gave mankind the info.... so they themselves could live as "Gods".... so all these stories of gilgamesh and giants and thor, achilles, zeus, did they really happen? I think they did.....but who were they? how where they "God" like?....because they were the ones cast out from heaven...... or they were descendants of those who were.... thats how they became known and infamous etc..... whats odd is thruought time they all kind of mirror people in the bible, but they all came before them.... thats how i see stuff tho and others maynot?


time will speed up technology will be quicker and there will be a great falling away in the end times and most might have to do with these people who want you to get enlightened and think of yourselves as "Gods"....





 

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