To The Guys...

[Sassy]

I debated on if I should post this or not. I wanted to give a woman's point of view. I see so many post on here ask why she left.

The missing pieces that you are wondering about. After read the book, I gave it to him and told him how I felt. We tried working through this feeling and things got better for awhile. Then we started to try to have a baby. 4 years of infertility treatments and I broken hearted said no more. I didn't give him any other choice. I just knew I couldn't do it any more. My mother and SIL were so unsupportive of what I was going through that I nearly had a nervous breakdown. Realizing that what point I was at, I went for counseling. I was working through everything I realized that he was part of the problem, but he would never go with me. He didn't like counselors and didn't want any part of it. (Something that goes back to childhood.) After a year of counseling I felt strong enough to move on. I tried excepting my marriage for what it was, but things only got worse. By then... there was another women involved that I didn't know about until after our divorce when heard that he remarried.


Did you reinforce to him that you felt he was strong and assure him that he had nothing to prove? Perhaps he was or at least felt he was lacking in his male role?

This sounds much like the above - him needing to show or prove his worth not just as a person, but as a man.

Maybe I should have done better at this. Maybe I didn't make him feel good about himself. I always tried to be supportive and encouraging to him.


• He wanted to change me. Correcting me in front of people when I was talking. Constantly telling me what I did wrong. He always has a better way of doing things. He was an engineer. Part of my career is a graphic designer. Our minds think differently than a engineer, but just because I don't think that way, doesn't mean my way is the right or wrong way. He never ever worked out, and I never asked him to go to the gym. I accepted this about him. However, I was given an ultimatum him or the gym.

This is sort of a tough one but I'll bet the person he was really correcting was himself. It sounds as though by being hyper-critical of you, he perhaps wasn't quite so bad.

One of the things I learn from my counseling was that my mother has self-esteem issue that she manages to (can't remember the term) reflect on me. When she is down on herself, then she turns it around on me. I've learned not to let her criticism hurt my feelings because they are usually about herself. Also like my mother.... he was very control. He wanted to control me on so many levels, but I'm too independent. It lead to many of our fights.

• Housework...

Okay, this is a deadbeat thing that both girls and guys do. However, men and women often have different views of what's an acceptable standard of living. Even so, by him expecting the house to be cleaned by you, it could easily have been one more way he could, even if subconsciously, make you feel bad about you. The way he felt bad about him.

This is very true. We came to a compromise on this one. My mother was almost obsessive about a clean house. It wasn't that important to him. I've learned not to be so obsessive about it. He would also pay for a lady to clean our house one/twice a month to help give me a break since he just didn't have time for it.

• Sex. This subject doesn't sound like a problem for you guys, but it was for me. He never wanted sex. We would go just about 3 months before he want any. The longest was 6. I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. He even moved into the guest bedroom and slept there until I asked for a divorce.

This could be for many reasons. Questions I might ask you would be if you think you did everything to make yourself sexually attractive to him. Not just in a physical way, but in a vulnerable way. Much can play into this. First, your feelings of neglect may have led to you intentionally, even if not consciously, being unattractive or not enticing to him. This type of complex manipulation can happen from both sides and not always on the surface which is the exact reason why it can go on for years yet the problems remain unsolved.

After being turned down so many times, you just quit trying. This was part of his control. We only had sex when he was in the mood. Never when I was. Yes, I tried my best to be attractive. I also started becoming more serious about bodybuilding, so my body changed a lot. I have wondered if he just isn't attracted to athletic women... only skinny chicks.

• Find something you two have in common to do together. It's ok to have separate hobbies, but be sure and find something that both enjoy doing. This is important because it keeps you from growing apart. We grew apart. We didn't have anything in common.

I'm being presumptuous here but I think growing apart, as you say, is exactly what you both wanted based on what I've read. Sooner or later, one or both sides just say to hell with it and go on elsewhere. Above all things, the one thing that seems to be missing here is solid communication. I'm sure the two of you communicated these feelings but I bet it was not in a constructive manner and on neutral ground. Did communication eventually become hostile confrontations or was there simply no communication?

The two of you may have felt love for one another, you may have even been in love, but did you really like each other? Sometimes the idea of a couple is much better than the reality of the couple itself.

Again, great post and I'm so glad that you took the time to share this with us. You seem like a much happier person today so I'm very happy for you and your love.



Well... let's just say I learned a lot. There were a lot of things that I did that didn't help our marriage either. I've tried to learn from them and not make the same mistakes again. You right. I gave up on the marriage. I wanted out. But he didn't give me any signs that he wanted to save it either. He even went to a different marriage counselor than me. He refused to go to my counselor.

Sorry this turned out so long...

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I debated on if I should post this or not. I wanted to give a woman's point of view. I see so many post on here ask why she left.

The missing pieces that you are wondering about. After read the book, I gave it to him and told him how I felt. We tried working through this feeling and things got better for awhile. Then we started to try to have a baby. 4 years of infertility treatments and I broken hearted said no more. I didn't give him any other choice. I just knew I couldn't do it any more. My mother and SIL were so unsupportive of what I was going through that I nearly had a nervous breakdown. Realizing that what point I was at, I went for counseling. I was working through everything I realized that he was part of the problem, but he would never go with me. He didn't like counselors and didn't want any part of it. (Something that goes back to childhood.) After a year of counseling I felt strong enough to move on. I tried excepting my marriage for what it was, but things only got worse. By then... there was another women involved that I didn't know about until after our divorce when heard that he remarried.


Sorry this turned out so long...

Don't apologize! I'm so glad you decided to post this here I can't even tell you. This is real life. You had a bad relationship with your first husband. Many people reading this right now are in these exact types of relationships. People will relate to what you're saying. Even though some people live in a world where everything is tangerine dreams and marmalade skies, that's just not reality.

I don't want to post anything further out here but but I see what happened here. I see what went wrong here. Just remember sass, as I'm sure you already know, it's the hardships and bad things we face and overcome that give us character - that bring out our very best and worst. Good things make for happy moments but only when our castles are burned down can we rise from the ashes.

Thanks again for posting what you did. It was inspirational to say the least.

 

[Frank-Oh]

Actually to whomever. I posted this in another thread that was sort of buried so I thought I'd post it here so that everyone might have a chance to share their experiences. I get a lot of PM's and emails regarding breakups and why, oh WHY could this happen?!? How can she just turn off her feelings? I wrote the below in response to that exact question and someone has asked me to make this a thread.

It used to perplex me why, it seemed, the majority of women would go from relationship to relationship sometimes in very short time (month, weeks, or even days) while men, on the other hand, will suffer terrible anguish for months on end before they let it go. If you don't believe me, well... just read this forum!

First, let me say that I think women are adorable people and this might seem derogatory to some extent but what I'm saying is that the following may be true much of the time but definitely not all of the time. All people are different but sometimes there's some commonality. Had to get my disclaimer in there because heck... there's women on this board!

I truly believe that women are much more sensitive and in tune of a man's feelings than a man is of a woman's feelings. Probably largely in part that women are for many reasons much more able to express emotions openly and without judgment than a man is. When I say " many reasons" I mean upbringing, societal pressure, etc. Since they are able to indulge in the expression and cultivation of their emotions, the emotional nature becomes a larger part of their human language (verbal, physical, etc.)

Men, however, are under pressure to AVOID getting emotional - to keep hold of themselves and behave in a way that befits a man. That's right! Get a hold of yourself, man! Sometimes though, not only do I believe this can be a good thing, but I think sometimes the suppression and control of emotions is absolutely necessary to the man's health and the health of everyone around him.

I'm trying very hard not to write a textbook here, so let's just say that men, whatever the reason may be, will often behave in ways that are deeply hurtful to a women's feelings. Maybe even sometimes physical but let's stick to a normal scenario. Women accept these hurtful things and allow them to build up - sometime even for years. Women often go to almost ridiculous lengths to try to express to a man how hurt they are and oftentimes can't even articulate the reason why so the cry for help will just fall on deaf ears to the man because he says, "She's on the rag. She's crying again and can't even tell me why." And why? Because they are not upset about one single item but a many! It's a year, or two years, or 10 years of pain that are in there. So this is all a double edged sword because while she'll put up with your dumb ass, and the pain of getting cheated on, always late, never call, roll over and go to sleep, it's all getting duly noted inside her. And that big well of shit will eventually start to chip away and the foundation of her feelings for the man.

Time goes by, and these feelings she once felt so strongly for this man are slowly dying, day by day, and the man goes about his business as she doesn't seem to care if he stays out all night, or go out with his friends on her birthday, whatever. He's thinking, "I can't believe she's letting me do this!" Further and further away she drifts until at some point in time the feelings she once had for the man are completely and utterly gone. Then SHE begins to go out, stay out later and later, txt messaging, staying up all night on the internet. Well, she finally meets a guy who's new, exciting, listens to every word she says (or at least acts like he gives a shit) and then the next thing you know.....? What happens?

"We need to talk..."

WHAM!

She breaks up with the man and what do you know? She's dating new interesting guy a week later! A whore? NO, YOU DUMBASS! She was done with your ass months ago! She was already over you and grieved and cried, and was depressed at your loss and the death a looooong time before she uttered the words, "We need to talk..."

So the way it really is, and the way it often appears, can be very different.

I'm sure this is full of grammatical errors and obviously it doesn't apply to every single case but many times, boys, she's over you long before you ever know about it. If she is a healthy female and you hurt her feelings for long enough, she will leave. I give you my word on that.

So my word of wisdom here guys is simply this: Be a good and faithful man, because if you start screwing around, the only ass that will be getting screwed eventually is your own.

Do you think there is hope when things get to that point, both of you are married living in the same house but doing your own thing.. You break up, and then suddenly start acting like you're back together.. nothing was fixed.. feels like your just making someone comfortable until they are comfortable enough to move on..

ive done some fucked up shit to my wife, not really but enough for her to speculate the worse and me not having the credibility to prove otherwise.

we split, now she wants me back.. i don't feel shit was resolved, but I don't want to be the duck that gets left on the side lines 2,4,8 years down the road because she had an epiphany..

for what it's worth, every arguments tends to end with her throwing back at me everything i ever did or she speculates I've done..

sorry..i think I just hijacked?

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Do you think there is hope when things get to that point, both of you are married living in the same house but doing your own thing.. You break up, and then suddenly start acting like you're back together.. nothing was fixed.. feels like your just making someone comfortable until they are comfortable enough to move on..

ive done some fucked up shit to my wife, not really but enough for her to speculate the worse and me not having the credibility to prove otherwise.

we split, now she wants me back.. i don't feel shit was resolved, but I don't want to be the duck that gets left on the side lines 2,4,8 years down the road because she had an epiphany..

for what it's worth, every arguments tends to end with her throwing back at me everything i ever did or she speculates I've done..

sorry..i think I just hijacked?

Threads in the counseling forum aren't really hijackable if that's a word. When I read this, it's really, really apparent that you don't trust her. Does she have the same lack of trust with you? If you feel you are an epiphany away from being left alone, then maybe you should work on that. When she throws everything back at you that you've ever done, what do you do? The same? Leave? Cry? I'm serious. How do you respond to that? See, I have no idea what situation you have going on there so all I can do is ask questions at this point. Your case, though, sounds different from the concept in this thread in that she's hurt and maybe confused but she still cares for you. Even if she doesn't like you or the fact that she does. That's all I have for you on that one. Here's a funny story for you. I don't recommend you try this, just so we're clear on that.

When I was in school I was dating this girl for almost a year. She acted very much like you are describing. She constantly nagged and complained so awfully that, just for the hell of it, I recorded her complianing on a tape recorder (yes, we used cassette tapes in them there days) and I had a tape recorder that I did my dictations on. It was 45 minutes of constant bitching. A real tantrum. And I said, "Well take a good listen to what I have to listen to!"

She left me obviously which was pretty much my intent but not before she got at least 10 minutes of listening to herself - a real earful. In fact, while she was explaining to me what an asshole I was, the tape just kept right on playing in the background.

 

[RSH)&]

Great Post

One of the best I've every read regarding relationships. Sure wish I had this info 18 years ago.

Another great book for couples is "The Five Love Languages."

 

[method2madness]

ey ouch I never thought I'd look at the relationship section but what you described is happening to me and my wife now. I don't think we'll be able to save our marriage. I seemingly did everything right and my only real flaw that I know about is that I have a bad temper that comes out when provoked so I yell and scream alot when she pushes me to far. It takes two tango and all she can really say is that she has changed, isn't attracted to me anymore, loves me but is not in love with me, etc..I've tried several times over the course of our 15 year marriage to get her to come to marriage counseling with me but only now(once the likelihood of divorce is on our doorstep) is she even willing to consider it. I was taught that you struggle through the bad times and try to make them better before giving up. I thought she was tought the same, I guess I was wrong. If/when this divorce happens I will make it a point to move on quickly as I'm not one to sit and wallow in misery. But I do't and have never wanted my marriage to be over after 15 years.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

ey ouch I never thought I'd look at the relationship section but what you described is happening to me and my wife now. I don't think we'll be able to save our marriage. I seemingly did everything right and my only real flaw that I know about is that I have a bad temper that comes out when provoked so I yell and scream alot when she pushes me to far. It takes two tango and all she can really say is that she has changed, isn't attracted to me anymore, loves me but is not in love with me, etc..I've tried several times over the course of our 15 year marriage to get her to come to marriage counseling with me but only now(once the likelihood of divorce is on our doorstep) is she even willing to consider it. I was taught that you struggle through the bad times and try to make them better before giving up. I thought she was tought the same, I guess I was wrong. If/when this divorce happens I will make it a point to move on quickly as I'm not one to sit and wallow in misery. But I do't and have never wanted my marriage to be over after 15 years.

I've seen it a hundred times with only minor differences but the main actions are the same. When she gets to that point, your chances become very slim. I can't say I've never seen it work bc I have. But what is usually left of the man after she pretty much leads him around on a leash is just sad to see. He becomes her bitch. But even that can work if he does every little thing she wants like a good boy for months or years on end and then makes a planned and well-though out "stand". He doesn't have to be a jerk about it but she's going to whip you until your at its end and even she will enjoy it just enough to take it too far where even she knows she has, and that's when you make your stand. Not so much that you're trying to turn the tables but to where she thinks she has a man that is willing to be a 50% partner. Which is 5 times as much as a new man is going to give her.

It's a bit of a power play but if done properly, with some guidance and couples therapy, it can work. But it's going to be hard. Remember, you're trying to reform someone's opinion of who you are, reestablish trust, and at least attempt to become the man she thinks she wants. It's a lot of work. And it may fail. A couples therapist would tell you both this. If you both still want to try knowing everything I just said, there's good hope.

On a personal note, sorry, man. That's rough. Hard to go through. I went through it. I didn't want to make the effort though. It was enough for me to just start fresh. But we did not have the love between us any longer for it to work. At least I didn't. So I walked. But depending how much love there is, you may want to try. 15 years is a far cry from the 4 years I had invested. Keep me (or all of us) updated. Best wishes to both of you. Sincerely, the very best to you both.

 

[goback2013]

been through the whole 'i messed up thing' too..
after apologizing to her and promising better, she continued to hold things over my head.
i was probably 35 at the time.. i said look, 'i apologized, cant do anything about the past.. i love you and all, but i refuse to be your emotional punching bag.'
left her at the restaurant, went back to my house, and just slept it off.
next day, felt like a huge burden was lifted off my shoulders.
went to a sunday day party that next day, met another female.. fucked,, continued fucking for the next few months..
during that time.. the ex girl wanted to work things out .. i was like cool.. come over, lets talk.. fucked.. got her to do all types of crazy shit, cause she just wanted me back.. whatever.
the next week i was like "i just dont feel the same.." all when i was 35-36

at this point in life, i'm just immune to it all.. paternity cases, divorces, bitter ex-lovers.. i'm just done with the whole 'falling in love' thing.
if we enjoy each other's company and have the same sex drive then cool.. but once that starts to fade, there's always the next.
probably wont end this relationship cycle until i no longer look much younger than i am.

 

[method2madness]

Thanks man, of course there are enough "behind the scenes" details to fill paragraphs but none of it actually changes the basic premise of my situation. We both could have handled things differently and we might still have ended up at this point, I'll never know but I suspect the biggest gamechanger was her having to be a caretaker for my autistic son while simultaneouly worrying about me and my epilepsy. I think thats when it all really started to turn bad for us on the relationship front. Regardless, it sucks and I'll keep you guys updated if/when anything changes. Thanks.

 

[Hammer4]

Choice is yours brother but be in all in or all out. Make a decision and pursue the course. Best of luck my man.

 

[method2madness]

Choice is yours brother but be in all in or all out. Make a decision and pursue the course. Best of luck my man.

She sad yesterday that the only therapy she'd be interested in is therapy to help us figure out how to seprate peacefully. she has no interest in saving our marriage. As much as I am nostalgic for all the good times Ican't and won't even try to force her to do something she has no interest in. What really hurts is that I spent 15 years doing everything I could to provide for my wife and family but failed to realize when and that her needs were changing. Never cheated, smoked, drank, did drugs, gambled, etc.. none of the bad shit that could fuck up a marriage. I don't even thing I could have stopped this if I had warning signs. I am starting therapy for my anger, but that's for me, no relation to my marriage. She want's it to end this way then fine, I will move on as quickly as I can but still see my boys as much as possible

 

[Luv2test]

She sad yesterday that the only therapy she'd be interested in is therapy to help us figure out how to seprate peacefully. she has no interest in saving our marriage. As much as I am nostalgic for all the good times Ican't and won't even try to force her to do something she has no interest in. What really hurts is that I spent 15 years doing everything I could to provide for my wife and family but failed to realize when and that her needs were changing. Never cheated, smoked, drank, did drugs, gambled, etc.. none of the bad shit that could fuck up a marriage. I don't even thing I could have stopped this if I had warning signs. I am starting therapy for my anger, but that's for me, no relation to my marriage. She want's it to end this way then fine, I will move on as quickly as I can but still see my boys as much as possible

Sounds like you gave it your all. If you think your anger needs to be put in check, because it’s going to make you a better more introspective person, great. Don’t blame yourself too much though. Maybe you don’t need as much work as you think.
It sounds like it’s more her than you. Admittedly, she’s no longer in love with you, nor will she ever be.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. With as much work as you say you put in, this breakup sounds inevitable.
Let it sink in, find out who you are again, and things will fall into place. God bless.

 

[method2madness]

Sounds like you gave it your all. If you think your anger needs to be put in check, because it’s going to make you a better more introspective person, great. Don’t blame yourself too much though. Maybe you don’t need as much work as you think.
It sounds like it’s more her than you. Admittedly, she’s no longer in love with you, nor will she ever be.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. With as much work as you say you put in, this breakup sounds inevitable.
Let it sink in, find out who you are again, and things will fall into place. God bless.

Much appreciated brother. as men tend to do we like things to be in concrete terms in order to understand them but this just isn't and likely never will be. My mom of all people who is still married to my dad said something that is really going to help me move on in a more complete way. She said "Will getting answers to your questions fix the problems or just give you answers?" Of course it's the latter, this is unfixable. There is blame on both sides but blame won't make the pain go away any faster. My anger has been a problem in the past but she new that going in and we are both the type who like to get the last word and she has a tendency to intentionally "poke the bear" THe intent their is purely malicious because she knows how much I hate myself when I can't stop from exploding.