Too much AAS can slow gains ?

[Biggerp73]

A few weeks ago I transitioned from a cut to a bulk and decided to increase my dose since i had been on for quite a while during the cut and figured my body was probably used to the dose i had been taking..well, i upped the dose a lot...i wont mention how much exactly, but it was a lot...and at first it seemed to be working fine, but i started to get sick, and every time i ate any food i would have crippling indigestion and wouldn't be able to sleep at night, etc... So i decided to back off the dosage, and I immediately felt a million times better... But what was suprising is that my muscles have popped up, gained fullness, and gotten stronger as a result too... So now I'm thinking there is a point at which excess AAS can actually be counterproductive, not just in terms of feeling like crap, but also in terms of actual anabolism and muscular progress... One explanation ive come up with is extra strain on the body to get rid of the excess may divert resources and cause elevated cortisol, etc... Another reason may be a negative feedback loop of some sort which shuts down or turns on certain genes... But that is speculation about the mechanism, which doesn't really matter as much as simply knowing that too much can actually slow down gains... At least that is what it seems like based on this recent experience... Any of you experience the same thing?

 

[Ashop]

YES there is a line between risk VS. reward and and results VS. side effects. The point of feeling great to feeling like you don't even want to train. If you have pushed the envelope before you know what I'm talking about. Keeping things low to moderate is obviously the best approach.

 

[thethinker48]

The healthiest version of a person on gear is the most well equipped to build muscle.

Aside from all the factors you mentioned; I like to think that muscle is an extra accessory for our body. Survival and homeostasis take precedence; so when guys loads the turkey baster in hopes of getting “huge”. They are actually taking a step backwards by inducing more toxicity than their body can handle properly.

There’s a reason why it’s pretty commonly said that a pro can just tolerate more than others; ie not get sick. One of the many reasons why they are a pro [emoji846]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[trekrider215]

Well shit, now i wanna know what you "were" running and what you bumped it up to. Come on, don't be shy!

 

[LATS]

A few weeks ago I transitioned from a cut to a bulk and decided to increase my dose since i had been on for quite a while during the cut and figured my body was probably used to the dose i had been taking..well, i upped the dose a lot...i wont mention how much exactly, but it was a lot...and at first it seemed to be working fine, but i started to get sick, and every time i ate any food i would have crippling indigestion and wouldn't be able to sleep at night, etc... So i decided to back off the dosage, and I immediately felt a million times better... But what was suprising is that my muscles have popped up, gained fullness, and gotten stronger as a result too... So now I'm thinking there is a point at which excess AAS can actually be counterproductive, not just in terms of feeling like crap, but also in terms of actual anabolism and muscular progress... One explanation ive come up with is extra strain on the body to get rid of the excess may divert resources and cause elevated cortisol, etc... Another reason may be a negative feedback loop of some sort which shuts down or turns on certain genes... But that is speculation about the mechanism, which doesn't really matter as much as simply knowing that too much can actually slow down gains... At least that is what it seems like based on this recent experience... Any of you experience the same thing?

One thi g that always stands out to me is a time I talked to a euro based " guru" or coach.. he said the first thing he does is cut gear dosages 25 to 50 percent on every body.. the vast majority of us take way to much and have only decent diets.. he addresses the diet first then the training.. only then can doses be increased..

One thing many find is that it's hard to train effectively when you have so much lethargy.. we know gear can cause this.. I notice much more energy when I'm on trt or just a bit above.. my training is bettet.. I dont have the need to pop workout boosters or caffeine..

Another common practice that even dante and even meadows has talked about is only doing Only 300mgs of test offseasons with gh.. many top guys drop to this for very long periods .. its first off healthier.. but secondly they have better workouts and grow just fine

Which brings us back to your statement.. yes I look better and grow better from low doses.. I train harder.. less bloat .. much less strain on the system.. let's face it if you feel better you train better.. it doesn't take much aas to grow.. so if your system is as " toxic" and your a bit more energized your gonna look and grow better..

I have a low threshold for this stuff.. I start to feel tired.. and just unhealthy.. that's your body telling ya something..

 

[saffire]

One thi g that always stands out to me is a time I talked to a euro based " guru" or coach.. he said the first thing he does is cut gear dosages 25 to 50 percent on every body.. the vast majority of us take way to much and have only decent diets.. he addresses the diet first then the training.. only then can doses be increased..

One thing many find is that it's hard to train effectively when you have so much lethargy.. we know gear can cause this.. I notice much more energy when I'm on trt or just a bit above.. my training is bettet.. I dont have the need to pop workout boosters or caffeine..

Another common practice that even dante and even meadows has talked about is only doing Only 300mgs of test offseasons with gh.. many top guys drop to this for very long periods .. its first off healthier.. but secondly they have better workouts and grow just fine

Which brings us back to your statement.. yes I look better and grow better from low doses.. I train harder.. less bloat .. much less strain on the system.. let's face it if you feel better you train better.. it doesn't take much aas to grow.. so if your system is as " toxic" and your a bit more energized your gonna look and grow better..

I have a low threshold for this stuff.. I start to feel tired.. and just unhealthy.. that's your body telling ya something..

:yeahthat: lately doing "light offseason cycles" and it works so much better than my cycles years ago with higher dosages and feeling like :chee;y-sm

little test and little hgh :headbang: feeling fine, apetite is high, training harder = gains

 

[Biggerp73]

when i was younger and used AAS I would just inject everything I could afford... never got any sides besides some gyno... looking back I think much of that was probably underdosed... but whenever I hear people say, "too many sides," etc, I just think, well, I don't care about the sides, so even if they come, I'm OK with that if the trade-off is more gains... but now I realized that one of the "sides" can actually be reduced gains, as weve all agreed on now in this thread... though I will say, when I hear some guys saying they grow on low dosages, etc, and I look at their pics and they might have a great physique but they look the same as they did 5 years ago or they look great and are shredded but simply dont have impressive size compared with real bodybuilders, I just think, "yeah, you say you gain on low dosages, but the look of your physique tells me you arent gaining... at least not the way I want to and know I can"...perhaps one reason why some guys arent huge and stay the same on low dosages is they just do lots of failure sets, intensity techniques, drop sets, pump workouts, etc, and never actually get stronger... in fact I think that has got to be the primary factor in a lot of cases...

 

[little slice]

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/53353-so-sick-heres-truth.html

 

[MightyJohn]

One of My best friends who is a national level heavy is a firm believer in this...
He coaches quite a few people and many make it to that next level when he cuts their toxic dosing back

 

[Biggerp73]

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/53353-so-sick-heres-truth.html

This seems like a relevant sentence:

"BUT, pros have the genetics to have their bodies accept the gear, and generally not get sick on it."

 

[Biggerp73]

It just might be the case that the difference between amateurs and pros is that pros dont just "respond better" to a certain dosage, but are able to respond better and better and better the higher they go, even though they already had a great response (compared to other guys) on lower dosages.

 

[little slice]

I think a big part is understanding what drugs your body doesn't like..

Anadrol or anything methylated, I can't eat.


Tren? Difficulty sleeping, resulting in general sluggishness


Test and deca at highish dosages? I am totally fine

 

[Fit2Serve]

IMO the more i used the bigger/stronger i got. BUT, i cant say i did crazy high doses. most i ever ran was prob in the 3-4 grams weekly total tops. and that was only prob last 6 weeks of a prep
mainly just used test and slin in offseason
I feel my genetics are good for taking gear. i never got any bad side effects (never got bitch tits and used up to 2gms test a week plus other stuff), estrogen stays in normal range on up to 250-300mg test a week, never got acne, etc. BUT as i aged anything 19-nor i think it is (like deca, tren) started giving me insane anxiety. so i dont touch em. but everything else is game
-F2S

 

[LATS]

What we have to understand is this game is 100 percent genetics.. yes we can say it's hard work etc but in the end we are still governed by our genetics and what they will allow..

Genetics is more than muscle shape or fiber... it's how we assimilate food... metabolism.. response to intensity training.. the ability to withstand hard training.. cns response.. how we assimilate our drugs .. our ability to withstand drugs and possible adverse reactions.. how much we convert to dht.. estrogen.. our joint integrity .. the list goes on and on..

Dexter Jackson once showed bloodwork after a show.. his hdl was in the 40s.. he can withstand all the rigors of contest prep and still have great lipids.. most of ours would be destroyed . I know a guy who had test levels in the 13000 range.. his e2 was 120.. didnt take any AI

I have seen in my 37 years in this game numerous freaks.. barely take anything and they morph.. ive seen the opposite also..

I cant take anywhere near a gram total.. I never go over 300 to 400 test and most of the time less.. I just feel aweful on it. But ibrespind well to low dose. But once I up it I feel lethargic and tired.. not worth it.. I wonder what I could do if I could truly run a big cycle. But know my body doesnt like it..

The key is to know your limits and dont run compounds that effect your adversely.. it's not worth fighting through.. example.. I cant take eq.. even at 300 mgs I get mad anxiety.
I love 1 test cyp but know after 4 weeks I will also get anxiety. But love NPP.. my go to cycle is 300 mgs of test.. 400 of npp.. 200 mast.. feel great.. or 250 mgs of test andc500 primo.. again I feel healthy and good. But I cant run what many post and cringe knowing how I'd feel on it if I did.

The only saving grace is that i respond well to training. I grow fairly easy even when I was natural.. but I can't take much gear our I'll just lay on the couch and veg.

Again know your limitations and work within them.. and know that there are numerous pros who are not even running a gram. And there are numerous pros hitting 3 or 4 grams.. they have certain limits too..

 

[ds44]

This bodybuilding game is all about slow progression drugs,weights food etc..and we tend as humans to want immediate gratification..there are no cycles you get on and you stay on. Start as low as possible with test. I prefer sust 250 for many reasons ,get as much as you can from say 250 a week and very slowly increase your calories and weights you keep going like this until you plateau then add another 250 so total is 500. This plateu could happen after 6 months a year or two years and you keep going like this slowly gradually increasing food and test. As for weights you will plateu and you just need to add giant sets suspersets with some heavy weights for stimulation. Lee haney allways said you need to stimulate not annihilate the muscle.But before that stick to core exercises...once you get to 1 to 1.5 grams of test then Gradually increase some deca or npp and do the same prgression, you will get to the point when You need to add that magical hgh/slin/t-3 protocol cause then after you created that really good base this combo will vault you to another level...now mind you this maybe over a 5 year period...as for blood work it will stink just the way it is...these guys that are on massive cycles and say my blood work is perfect are out right liars....i wont debate bb'ers may be some of the biggest liars i ever meant..they all want you to beleve they are genetic freaks on super low doses and over 300 pounds no possible....there is some decent advice and theres alot of BS the only way to figure it is see whats qorking for and add slowly so you know what worls and what doesnt.... my thoughts

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[MR. BMJ]

The larger the dose I take, the larger I get (not advising this, nor have I taken any sort of large dosage in many many years). That said, and similar to others above, if I take a larger dose, and it effects my eating, then in this case, it doesn't help toward me getting bigger. You factor in other sides, they can have effects too, in different ways, that may impede your/my gainzzz.

If I take 2 grams of test, I will get bigger than 1 gram, but it will not be twice the amount of gains. You have to factor whether sides effects and health concerns are worth that extra bit of muscle at the end of it all. I'm just using the 1 gram vs 2 gram as an example. Do I think there is a point where it bottoms out...yea, but I think it is different for everybody, and it would be impossible to guess it....well for me to guess it.

I can say that I didn't get much more out of 150mg/d of Drol compared to 75-100mg/d...maybe a little. However, I got a HUGE difference using 75mg/d of dbol compared to 25-50mg/d. I know some who say they didn't get much more going above 25mg/d.

 

[Elvia1023]

A few things come to mind. There is a whole spectrum when it comes to response to gear. Then the ability to take high doses is something entirely different. Some are hyper responders to gear meaning they only need very low doses to get amazing results. Although many of them also get side effects easily due to their response. Now other people have a great response and an ability to push the doses of multiple compounds and get no-few side effects so they are in a win/win situation when it comes to gear.

There are plenty of people who can run massive doses of gear and get minimal side effects. Many of these people are not genetically gifted for building muscle either. I have come across quite a few guys who could take alsorts of stuff and be totally fine.

Regarding the thread I have posted about this many times. It can also be compound related as well. Over the years I have learnt basically what doses I can run of each compound before side effects start outweighing results. Unfortunately as I have gotten older those doses seem to have decreased a lot. That's why for many cycles you see me running fairly low doses of multiple compounds and it works for me.

I agree with what people have posted and I am no different. I just starting "bulking" and my cycle will be 500mg test c and 300mg deca. I will probably bump the deca to 400mg and add mast e in at 200mg later on. That is plenty for me to grow on. It's not a lower dose thing either. I care about my health and use sensible doses but if I didn't feel so shit on higher doses I probably would have went with 1.5g test and 900mg deca or something similar. If I grew more on higher test and felt good I would push the test dose and be on 2+ grams of it for approx 8 weeks at a time. But the fact is once I get to around 750mg+ it just goes against me. A few times I have actually started looking worse on higher test.

The same for orals which I love but if I bang in 100mg adrol my appetite goes to shit so I can't eat and I will probably get severe back pumps over the weeks which will negatively impact training. I have done it before and relied upon shakes but the orals don't just mess up appetite they can heavily impact digestion as well. So whilst the quick fullness is great the long term results could be negatively effected. So all in all I have to be careful with what I choose to run. This time round I am not doing orals just to give my body a break. They ruin my cholesterol levels as well so I want to allow them to improve even as I grow which I know they will do if I continue to eat as I am and just stick to the basic hormones.

It's true many grow on low doses and save the high stuff for contest prep. I always post about that and many are using sensible amounts and again you don't need a lot of gear to grow. You just need a decent base so let's say 500mg test and you could throw in 200mg of something else or 40mg of x oral etc. Others just do test and hgh. Basically some hormones without negatively effecting appetite, digestion and a total dose that makes you feel good as opposed to toxic, lethargic etc. That way you can do the important stuff properly meaning eat and train hard.

Now I write that but at the same time I have to also mention so many people bullshit. Loads of guys are blasting huge amounts. Some are fine and others struggle through the sides but let's not kid ourselves. Many do lower doses but most people don't. There are a handful of guys who I consider freaky who I chat to and pretty much all of them run over 3 grams of gear to grow. It doesn't make it right or essential but it's just the way it is. Many also abuse hgh and slin (some with standard doses of aas) but you don't really hear about it on the forums. So whilst I 100% agree with the thread and find it true for myself others are ok pushing the doses. I personally don't think it's needed at all but humans will be humans and the more is better mentality is common with a lot of people. Again though I could run 4-5 grams total of test and deca compared to 1 gram total of test and deca and I bet I wouldn't look much different at the end of both cycles. Obviously more gear should/would make you bigger but it balances out when the side effects start becoming unbearable.

 

[nihilixm]

More always worked better for me. Maybe scale weight stagnated but it meant I put on less fat and recomped.

Think it might have to do with androgens up regulating b2 receptors or somth Tbh. Would explain sleep fk ups as well. Especially tren. Guess you just need to out eat it then.

 

[UsmcOldSchoolMuscle]

I agree with much of what Lats had shared, albeit his knowledge and experienced vastly out weighs mine.

With all health factors in check I pay close attention to how I nap. This may sound strange but it's an effective barometer for myself. I consider taking naps to be an effective tool for growth. I am naturally hyperactive and have difficulty taking naps. If I do in fact take a nap that signifies that I am well fed, if I am hungry forget about relaxing for a nap, and that my stress levels are manageable. 30 min to 45 is optimal. 1hr no harm no foul. If I nap longer than that I will likely miss a meal. If I oversleep during a nap, and all health factors are in check, to me this signifies that my body is trying to sleep off any potential damage done by excess gear.

That is just one example of how I trust my body which aids in my ability to utilize gear properly thus optimizing growth and mitigating potential harm.

 

[showstopper83]

I wonder how many bb'ers on high doses abuse amphetimines to combat lethargy. You can run an intensely heavy cycle and drugs like speed would make any lethargy disappear.

I saw on one of the iron generation vids some guy looking like he was totally on one, eyes all bugged out. Would also help to drop all the water and make it easy to IF for 2-3 days at a time.