TOO MUCH ANTI-E's

[Steak Helmet]

I have a friend that has a serious gyno issue.

He has heard before that 2% of the population can get gyno from GH??? NOt really sure how true that is???

I also told him his inconsistancy with injections can cause your blood levels to spike and fall, this can lead to side effects too.

He is PROGESTERONE sensitive, so he stays away from DECA and TREN.

he became gyno sensitive after he ran a shot of SUS a day for 30 days, then did 400mgs a week for 4 weeks, then did a normal cycle at 1gram of test a week.

HE has been in this business for 7 years now...he never had this issue in the beginning...where do you feel he screwed up???



HE is taking 1 ARMI EOD

40mg NOLV ED or EOD.

 

[swole79]

Steakhelmet, I would be willing to bet that the wild fluctuations in bloodlevels are what his problem is. He started out blasting 1750mgs per week. This got both his androgens and estrogens very high. Then he came back down and didn't have enough androgens in his system for the amount of estrogens that were still left floating around. Most guys find that they can get away with more estrogen in their systems when the androgens are high, It kind of ofsets the gyno problems.

 

[Massive G]

As I have stated for years I think anti a's and e's are the most overused and abused compounds out there-which have some very bad side effects if you read the literature on them, plus you need 1/10th the dose IF THAT at all for them to work.
Unless someone is supergyno -gets lumps from just looking at a vial of test-I wouldn't recommend them in the offseason.
Your greatest size gains come from aromatization, and estrogen is part of this layering INTRAMUSCULAR fat which contributes greatly to weight gain and muscle size.
contest time I can see them used very briefly but ..the rest of the time like said if your not prone to walking around with saggy lumps-enjoy the increased gains that come from the conversion of test.

 

[Jekyll]

He has heard before that 2% of the population can get gyno from GH??? NOt really sure how true that is???

It is.

Prepubertal gynecomastia during growth hormone therapy
Saul Malozowski MD, PhD, Bruce V. Stadel MD

The mechanism underlying stimulation of gynecomastia by GH has not been established. However, GH receptors have been identified in human breast cell lines, and GH could be stimulating growth directly through these, or through lactogenic receptors, or indirectly through the production of insulin-like growth factor. In this study, plasma levels of estradiol were within normal limits in all eight patients with levels reported.

The Journal of Pediatrics
Volume 126, Issue 4, April 1995, Pages 659-661

Effects of Human Growth Hormone on Body Composition in Elderly Men
Daniel Rudman, Axel G. Feller, Lester Cohn, Kaup R. Shetty, Inge W. Rudman, Michael W. Draper

Body composition changes progressively in mid and late adulthood. Lean body mass in men over 50 years old contracts at an average rate of-0.6% per year. Body weight tends to remain stable because of a reciprocal expansion of adipose mass. The shrinkage of the lean body mass reflects the atrophy of skeletal muscles, skin and visceral organs. Because growth hormone causes expansion of the lean body mass and contraction of the adipose mass, and because growth hormone secretion tends to diminish in late adulthood, it has been postulated that geriatric hyposomatotropism is a contributory cause to the body composition changes described above. The authors have tested this hypothesis by recruiting 45 independent men over 61 years old with plasma somatomedin C level below 0.35 U/ml, indicating little or no detectable growth hormone secretion. The 21-month protocol was as follows: baseline period 0-6 months, experimental period 6-18 months and post-experimental period 18-21 months. During the experimental period, 26 men (group I) received approximately 0.03 mg/kg of biosynthetic human growth hormone (hGH) subcutaneously 3 times a week, while 19 men (group II) received no treatment. Plasma somatomedin C was measured monthly. The following outcome variables were measured at 0,6, 12 and 18 months: lean body mass, adipose mass, skin thickness (dermis plus epidermis), sizes of the liver, spleen and kidneys, the cross sectional areas often muscle groups, and bone density at 9 skeletal sites. Lean body mass and adipose mass were also measured at 21 months. In group I, hGH treatment raised the plasma somatomedin C level and maintained it in the range 0.5-1.5 U/ml. Significant changes occurred in the following outcome variables, expressed as percent change at 18 months over baseline: lean body mass +6%, adipose mass -15%, skin thickness +4%, liver volume +8%, spleen volume + 23%, sum of ten muscle areas +11 %. Three months after hGH treatment stopped, about one half of the hGH-induced increment in lean body mass had disappeared and about one third of the hGH-induced decrement in adipose mass had reappeared. During hGH treatment, 9 subjects developed carpal tunnel syndrome and 4 subjects developed gynecomastia. The adverse side effects disappeared spontaneously within 3 months after cessation of hormone treatment. In group II, the somatomedin C level remained below 0.35 U/ml. At the 18-month time point, there was a significant decline in lean body mass to 96% of initial baseline and in skin thickness to 94% of initial baseline. These observations are consistent with the hypothesis that diminished growth hormone secretion in the later years of adulthood is a contributory cause to the body composition changes which occur with advancing age.

Horm Res 1991;36 (Suppl. 1):73-81 (DOI: 10.1159/000182193)

 

[morepain]

As I have stated for years I think anti a's and e's are the most overused and abused compounds out there-which have some very bad side effects if you read the literature on them, plus you need 1/10th the dose IF THAT at all for them to work.
Unless someone is supergyno -gets lumps from just looking at a vial of test-I wouldn't recommend them in the offseason.
Your greatest size gains come from aromatization, and estrogen is part of this layering INTRAMUSCULAR fat which contributes greatly to weight gain and muscle size.
contest time I can see them used very briefly but ..the rest of the time like said if your not prone to walking around with saggy lumps-enjoy the increased gains that come from the conversion of test.

we are very much in agreement here as per my post in the thread below "are anti-e's necessary?"

 

[Magnum]

As I have stated for years I think anti a's and e's are the most overused and abused compounds out there-which have some very bad side effects if you read the literature on them, plus you need 1/10th the dose IF THAT at all for them to work.
Unless someone is supergyno -gets lumps from just looking at a vial of test-I wouldn't recommend them in the offseason.
Your greatest size gains come from aromatization, and estrogen is part of this layering INTRAMUSCULAR fat which contributes greatly to weight gain and muscle size.
contest time I can see them used very briefly but ..the rest of the time like said if your not prone to walking around with saggy lumps-enjoy the increased gains that come from the conversion of test.

One of the most intelligent posts I've seen in a while.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

When I tell my clients to never use an anti e they think I am crazy, ahhahahah.........they think I am holding back a secret.

 

[PsyT]

Phil, magnum, massive G (and others)

if you dont recommend anti-Es during a cycle...what about during PCT of the cycle? Would you recommend then as a good time to introduce anti-Es (like aromasin) or would you just recommend an estrogen blocker like clomid?

 

[New_Mass]

my 2 cents for what its worth, more muscle and bitch tits at the same time , a no no for me, i've learned the estrogen helps with the muscle growth but it has to be controlled, its not wise to wait for a lump to develop before you take something, then its going to be much harder to get rid of it, the cat is already out the bag , once you have developed gyno its going to be very hard to get rid of, the best treatment is "prevention" meaning before it gets a chance to really starts to unfold. At the "first sign" of gyno(not "the last, the lump"), you should use an anti-estrogen of some type to stop the breast growth from happening.

 

[deanabol]

should estro not be controlled for things like libido ,acne ?

i am one of those people that can use 2g test and not bloat ,but .....i was told that high estro can cause libido issues and acne ,both of which ive suffered lately

 

[hawkmoon]

I have to go against the crowd here...

I have a similar problem with gyno. Ever since it flared up a couple years ago I am super sensitive. If I look at dbol it blows right up.
I'm two weeks in on 900mg of T and 600 of Deca, up from 600mg and 300mg; and my lump under my right nip is having a party.
50mg of proviron, 5mg of bromo, and 20mg of exemestane are barely holding the little bastard in its pen. I've even added ATD @ 50mg. After dropping the dbol (20mg for three weeks) it no longer hurts, but it still feels "active".

I have some pharm-grade letro on the way...
:s:ar-wars

 

[Magnum]

Phil, magnum, massive G (and others)

if you dont recommend anti-Es during a cycle...what about during PCT of the cycle? Would you recommend then as a good time to introduce anti-Es (like aromasin) or would you just recommend an estrogen blocker like clomid?

If I was prone to gyno I would certainly use an anti E. I just think that they are over used and they most certainly will have an effect on your blood work.

 

[ironjunkie]

I never had a problem with gyno, no matter what I take. The only thing high estro gives me is low sex drive.

Good post though it's causing me to re-think if I should cont to be on aromasin since my high estro results were in jan and I have it controlled now.

It was only high cuz I was off HRT for a year and a half, gained weight and didn't workout. Now things are 90% better. Muscle memory is great!!!

 

[Macro]

would just like to say that those that let estrogen and prolactin run wild, enjoy your prostate while you can since you are increasing your risks of prostate cancer many fold. Male breast cancer too. and thats just the cancers with known links.

nolvadex really no longer has much of a place in estrogen suppression. UNLESS estrogen is not produced via aromatase. 3 beta-diol and xenoestrogens come to mind.

dex is generally the poorest choice of AI, tending to cause the wrong kind of suppression (high level estrone suppression with even the lowest doses and with high doses needed to suppress peripheral aromatase, suitable primarily for very lean individuals with above average central/glandular/organ aromatase production)

exemestane is generally most suitable for general use.

letrozole is problematic, though very potent. some people need it generally, for most its suitable for short term use only.

about 70% of the male population has gynecomastia with varying levels of expression throughout their lives, according to mortality studies completed in the eighties. this is probably higher now, because of increased rates of childhood and overall obesity. with the highest incidence among teens and the elderly. basically that means that 3 of ten adult males probably have extremely low risk of developing gynecomastia, about 7 of 10 a moderate to strong disposition. Now if that population ratio translates to those that choose bodybuilding and steroids or is higher or lower????

basically those 2 or 3 of ten males did not develop budding in womb, during breast feeding or through adolescence. because of that they are likely to have VERY low risk of gynecomastia. The rest are not so lucky, less development means less risk, but the earlier and the extent highest level of expression during development will make one more or less likely to have issues (all other things being equal).

 

[MrCyp]

As I have stated for years I think anti a's and e's are the most overused and abused compounds out there-which have some very bad side effects if you read the literature on them, plus you need 1/10th the dose IF THAT at all for them to work.
Unless someone is supergyno -gets lumps from just looking at a vial of test-I wouldn't recommend them in the offseason.
Your greatest size gains come from aromatization, and estrogen is part of this layering INTRAMUSCULAR fat which contributes greatly to weight gain and muscle size.
contest time I can see them used very briefly but ..the rest of the time like said if your not prone to walking around with saggy lumps-enjoy the increased gains that come from the conversion of test.

What about bloodwork? Would you recommened estradial to actually be higher out of the range or should it be within range? Or at the high end of the range?

 

[MrCyp]

Does this 2% include those who lactate when on GH b/c i've heard a ton of people say they get some fluid when squeezing nips on GH.

 

[Macro]

Does this 2% include those who lactate when on GH b/c i've heard a ton of people say they get some fluid when squeezing nips on GH.

its actually more likely the blunting of insulin sensitivity by GH (thus increases in plasma insulin release as well as plasma insulin levels) that causes issues. of course this is aggravated and amplified by androgens, which also blunt insulin sensitivity.

 

[Macro]

in case that was not clear, insulin is a also a lactogen. Though generally not without prolactin or at least prolactin initiation.

 

[Massive G]

If I was prone to gyno I would certainly use an anti E. I just think that they are over used and they most certainly will have an effect on your blood work.

Thanks Magnum, they missed that part of the post I guess.

Phil and morepain and probably a host of others know what I am talking about.
Guys get about 20% more gains w/out these compounds added in-if not more.

It's going to be pointless to argue on here or any other message board as we have over 2 decades of brainwashing going on starting with Duchaine and nolvadex.

 

[MrCyp]

What about bloodwork? Would you recommened estradial to actually be higher out of the range or should it be within range? Or at the high end of the range?

bump^^^^^^^^^^^^