training and overtraining

[Mufasa123]

A frequently misunderstood and misapplied topic. Nervous system is like a battery that drains down from training, any stressor, and lack of recovery. Symptoms of delayed reaction time, impaired concentration, sleeplessness and lethargy are systemic as opposed to muscular.

Given faster decay rates of fatigue vs fitness one can tolerate much higher average training volume over a period. A good tool but unnecessary and overly complex for the vast majority.

How to benefit from Planned Overtraining

How to benefit from planned overtraining

www.higher-faster-sports.com

 

[tornquad201]

Overtraining is a massive misconception - This can be looked purely as a work capacity issue. By their nature "bodybuilding", especially isolation movements, have a remarkably low CNS taxation.

Not sure where this garbage came from but it does not take long to see improvements in endurance and work capacity even with nominal time spent recovering.

I’ve notice this as well . Even if you train a muscle that was still sore I always made improvements in work capacity and more reps I never felt overtrained

 

[alfresco]

I did 60 sets for legs last night. Be stiff for a few days but I know how to grow. Overtraining I think is mostly an excuse to be a pussy

If you did that and just that every day or even every other day I think you would very quickly ‘overtrain’ . . . I think you would agree.

Overtraining is real but not the same for everybody but does not vary by 100% or perhaps 50% or even 25%, my opinion.

You can become ‘conditioned’ to some degree to accommodate an increase in training; intensity, duration and frequency but not much when it comes to building muscle, no, cardio obviously yes, to a very large degree.

Weight training is a whole different critter. You cannot store your ability to recover if that makes sense. I think you pretty get have what you have and is not subject to much change.

The challenge is determined what is optimal for you. And I know I am always preaching this, but keeping very accurate records goes a long way.

All my opinion.

 

[alfresco]

I’ve notice this as well . Even if you train a muscle that was still sore I always made improvements in work capacity and more reps I never felt overtrained

Soreness is one of the least understood aspects of weight training.

And training when sore, if you can endure the pain, is the quickest way to eliminate soreness and will not hinder gains like you said.

 

[johnjuanb1]

I try to stop at maximum pump. Sometimes I get carried away and the pump starts to fade from too many sets/exercises. But it’s my belief there is merit in purposely over training for a period of time, followed by purposely under training for a period of time. By undertraining, I mean less sets but still doing the same training frequency(days per week). The same can be said with food and anabolics. It’s similar to blasting and cruising I suppose you could say.

 

[Alzadosghost]

If you did that and just that every day or even every other day I think you would very quickly ‘overtrain’ . . . I think you would agree.

Overtraining is real but not the same for everybody but does not vary by 100% or perhaps 50% or even 25%, my opinion.

You can become ‘conditioned’ to some degree to accommodate an increase in training; intensity, duration and frequency but not much when it comes to building muscle, no, cardio obviously yes, to a very large degree.

Weight training is a whole different critter. You cannot store your ability to recover if that makes sense. I think you pretty get have what you have and is not subject to much change.

The challenge is determined what is optimal for you. And I know I am always preaching this, but keeping very accurate records goes a long way.

All my opinion.

Ya I don’t train this much volume very often. But it does happen. 25-30 sets for legs is pretty standard. But Some nights I can just keep on going forever it seems. But being older the shit hurts a bit longer sometimes. But mostly for me no matter the weight or duration of thrashing regular muscle soreness usually just does not occur w me. Soreness for me is occurring in the one of many 12 joint reconstructions Iv had done lol I’m two weeks back in the gym after a 4 month layoff. Fresh as fuck. So I’m pushing it pretty good.

 

[alfresco]

Ya I don’t train this much volume very often. But it does happen. 25-30 sets for legs is pretty standard. But Some nights I can just keep on going forever it seems. But being older the shit hurts a bit longer sometimes. But mostly for me no matter the weight or duration of thrashing regular muscle soreness usually just does not occur w me. Soreness for me is occurring in the one of many 12 joint reconstructions Iv had done lol I’m two weeks back in the gym after a 4 month layoff. Fresh as fuck. So I’m pushing it pretty good.

I know the feeling . . . Going on and and at least until the pump starts going in the wrong direction. What a great feeling not wanting to stop and blowing up like a balloon. If only I could look like that all the time

But will tell you what, when I really up the intensity, the duration goes down, there is a real relationship there at least for me.

Shot, really sorry to read of all your injuries but you are clearly making the best of it. Much respect.

 

[airman]

I did 60 sets for legs last night. Be stiff for a few days but I know how to grow. Overtraining I think is mostly an excuse to be a pussy

How many of those 60 sets would you consider actual work sets?

 

[Alzadosghost]

How many of those 60 sets would you consider actual work sets?

Well considering they are all 25-60 reps. All of them.

 

[Alzadosghost]

20 sets of squats. Lightest being barbell squat w 135 for 25. Heaviest being 315 for 30. Lots of in between. Leg extensions superset with hamstring curls 15 sets. 20-50 reps. Hack squats 5 sets. Up to 14 plates for 20. Leg presses 5 sets up to 8 plates for 30 reps. 5 sets adductors, 5 sets ass blasters. 5 sets ass to grass squats with bar to failure. 50-80 reps. I’m not gonna lie I’m pretty crippled up today but I’m still going to gym tonight to kill back and calves. After 150 mg test trt for 4 months I’m back on the gas. 2 anadrol 50 a day. 900 mg test acetate a week, 200 mg tren enanthate a week, 50 mg a day proviron and 300 mg Deca a week. 10 mg aromasin twice a week, 3 iu hgh a day. Growing like a weed looking bigger throughout the day. Body weight went from 215 to 230 in 10 days.

 

[tornquad201]

For myself I would start counting at 315x30 and then do 4 more sets all too failure counting that as 5 sets I don’t count warm ups

 

[Alzadosghost]

For myself I would start counting at 315x30 and then do 4 more sets all too failure counting that as 5 sets I don’t count warm ups

I count everything. Keeping track is just that. Every workout is very random and unique to the others. My weights change constantly. As does my reps scheme. I go by feel and instinct. The point when I started randomizing workouts really changing things up adding higher reps and more sets is when my body really started taking in a new look. Most guys I know cannot make it through a high volume workout with me regardless of weight used. They all think I’m nuts. Shooting for 20-25 sets per body part and getting in and out in an hour just kicks their ass and realize just how unimportant the weight used really is. I rarely train heavy anymore.

 

[airman]

20 sets of squats. Lightest being barbell squat w 135 for 25. Heaviest being 315 for 30. Lots of in between. Leg extensions superset with hamstring curls 15 sets. 20-50 reps. Hack squats 5 sets. Up to 14 plates for 20. Leg presses 5 sets up to 8 plates for 30 reps. 5 sets adductors, 5 sets ass blasters. 5 sets ass to grass squats with bar to failure. 50-80 reps. I’m not gonna lie I’m pretty crippled up today but I’m still going to gym tonight to kill back and calves. After 150 mg test trt for 4 months I’m back on the gas. 2 anadrol 50 a day. 900 mg test acetate a week, 200 mg tren enanthate a week, 50 mg a day proviron and 300 mg Deca a week. 10 mg aromasin twice a week, 3 iu hgh a day. Growing like a weed looking bigger throughout the day. Body weight went from 215 to 230 in 10 days.

There is no way I could complete a workout like that. I would die. And if I managed it would take me 6 hours I think

 

[Alzadosghost]

There is no way I could complete a workout like that. I would die. And if I managed it would take me 6 hours I think

It took me two hours. I’m usually out of the gym in an hour though. Made many guys puke and crap their pants trying to get them through a leg workout w me. All the years working in the woods made my legs relentlessly endurable and tough. Takes alot to get through to them lol

 

[Alzadosghost]

I also took pre workout last night with that dmma shit lol it really cracked me out. Def helped get in a dozen or so extra sets. I had to force myself to hang it up and go home I just couldn’t get enough

 

[Type-IIx]

The overtraining syndrome (OTS) is real, but has different forms (sympathetic vs. parasympathetic; or, old school terminology, Basedowian vs. Addisinoid).

Basically, even with obsessive bodybuilding-style training (i.e., resistance training, glycolytic, short rest intervals, low - moderate training volumes relative to endurance athletes like @PMCCHRIS - who may actually experience OTS, even of the parasympathetic variety, if he goes overboard) it is virtually impossible to progress to parasympathetic OTS, and difficult to progress to sympathetic OTS (it'd take more than 20 - 30 hr mean per week spent actively lifting, coupled with inadequate kcals, especially carbohydrates).

There is strong evidence that the primary contributory factor to OTS is insufficient energy availability (too few calories; for us, too few carbohydrates in particular).

Overreaching is common: this just means a decrement in strength, that is rapidly reversible by decreasing training volumes for a week or two. It is sometimes "planned" and "functional" and used to elicit a rebound to a new strength level.

 

[Elvia1023]

I think some of this depends how we think of overtraining. For a short spurt I did sort of an extreme intensity program with deadlifts and squats and rather low to moderate volume but extreme intensity (specifically on those two movements). It was by far the most "overtrained" I ever felt. Sleep suffered, started to feel off, and just a beat up feeling. In fact I had extreme brain fog and was borderline "shaky" the next days.

That didn't last long but it took me almost a month to recover and get back to normal. It was less about the muscle and more about my brain, cns, and rest of my functioning body.

On the contrary I did a "squat daily" routine and over time my legs definitely became overtrained and I wasn't recovering properly. After a week of backing off...it was fine.

I guess I'm referring more to overtraining in the sense of doing biceps too much vs overtraining in the sense of overloading extreme intensity too much where it's a whole body effect.

Exactly. There are different forms of overtraining. I could go and train my arms using a variety of cable movements until they are cramping up and I will barely be able to move them but it will be localized to my arms and I will recover very quickly and probably feel fine the next day. Now if I go and train legs using a variety of movements but including squats and leg press to complete failure then my whole body (CNS) will be a mess. I will feel lethargic and of course I will barely be able to walk for a few days as well. This is where training volume and frequency is very important and knowing how far to push before digging a hole to deep to recover from. I usually have a rest day after legs to help with recovery but most importantly I pick my fav movements and I go to failure but I keep those failure sets limited so I do the work needed to progress whilst allowing for recovery before training again. There should always be times we push the line in a sense so over do things but that is also why we have deloads.

Everyone's definition of a working set is different. I love high volume training and I have done many 3 hour workouts before. I get more energy further into a session and I love to punish my body and look at it as a challenge. Plus these included many working/failure sets but they are scattered through the session. It would be pointless (and near impossible) to do 50+ working sets session after session. Anyone who can is not doing my definition of a working set. People say I done x working sets but most of them are usually warm ups.

It varies through the year and is never exact but I usually do between 6-15 working sets per session. Now if you count a working set as simply "working" and a "hard" set I probably do over 20 (sometimes 30) most sessions but I personally just count working as a complete failure set were I fail as in I can't lift the weight up any more. My working sets of hack squats for example never finish at the top and always at the bottom when I eventually can't get back up so complete failure. I could train legs very hard but it would only take 1-2 crazy sets and I would be destroyed. The type of sets that have you on the floor shaking unable to stand. You want to train to failure using a variety of movements but doing set after set (30+) like that is pointless especially if you are training frequently.

 

[johnjuanb1]

Exactly. There are different forms of overtraining. I could go and train my arms using a variety of cable movements until they are cramping up and I will barely be able to move them but it will be localized to my arms and I will recover very quickly and probably feel fine the next day. Now if I go and train legs using a variety of movements but including squats and leg press to complete failure then my whole body (CNS) will be a mess. I will feel lethargic and of course I will barely be able to walk for a few days as well. This is where training volume and frequency is very important and knowing how far to push before digging a hole to deep to recover from. I usually have a rest day after legs to help with recovery but most importantly I pick my fav movements and I go to failure but I keep those failure sets limited so I do the work needed to progress whilst allowing for recovery before training again. There should always be times we push the line in a sense so over do things but that is also why we have deloads.

Everyone's definition of a working set is different. I love high volume training and I have done many 3 hour workouts before. I get more energy further into a session and I love to punish my body and look at it as a challenge. Plus these included many working/failure sets but they are scattered through the session. It would be pointless (and near impossible) to do 50+ working sets session after session. Anyone who can is not doing my definition of a working set. People say I done x working sets but most of them are usually warm ups.

It varies through the year and is never exact but I usually do between 6-15 working sets per session. Now if you count a working set as simply "working" and a "hard" set I probably do over 20 (sometimes 30) most sessions but I personally just count working as a complete failure set were I fail as in I can't lift the weight up any more. My working sets of hack squats for example never finish at the top and always at the bottom when I eventually can't get back up so complete failure. I could train legs very hard but it would only take 1-2 crazy sets and I would be destroyed. The type of sets that have you on the floor shaking unable to stand. You want to train to failure using a variety of movements but doing set after set (30+) like that is pointless especially if you are training frequently.

I have to say you are the only person I have ever seen go to true failure. Most people use those words loosely. In the videos you sent me you kept going on hack squats until you were pinned in the bottom of the machine. Then you did it again the next set. You’re insane, Kevin! I’ve never intentionally done that to myself. Hahaha

 

[Elvia1023]

I have to say you are the only person I have ever seen go to true failure. Most people use those words loosely. In the videos you sent me you kept going on hack squats until you were pinned in the bottom of the machine. Then you did it again the next set. You’re insane, Kevin! I’ve never intentionally done that to myself. Hahaha

Those were standard sets and me starting out again. It only took 1 month and I was doing the same with much more weight. I remember I posted that video and it cut the video off 1-2 reps short of failure so I was annoyed

 

[jeroendebleser]

I try to stop at maximum pump. Sometimes I get carried away and the pump starts to fade from too many sets/exercises. But it’s my belief there is merit in purposely over training for a period of time, followed by purposely under training for a period of time. By undertraining, I mean less sets but still doing the same training frequency(days per week). The same can be said with food and anabolics. It’s similar to blasting and cruising I suppose you could say.

This training for the maximum pump but not a set more is also what I'm evolving to after all these years of training. Some days that's 20 work sets, some days it's only 3.

I believe in auto-regulation.