Training Hard Enough?

[pieguy]

Read a recent article on IM about people who follow Dorian's training principles on HIT and it really got me thinking about how effective HIT is for everyday gym rats and bbers.

Before the discussion progresses, lets just say Dorian was an absolute beast. He was meticulous with his diet and sleep (all logged), he lived bodybuilding every second of his life while he was an olympia contender and he is a genetic monstrosity.

HIT is based off of "It’s based around doing as little sets and reps necessary to achieve maximal results. Why keep annihilating a muscle if it’s already been stimulated to the point needed for growth?".

Now my question is, who can actually say without a doubt, they are going to absolute failure despite the mind-numbing pain you're feeling with unwavering sense of exhaustion/nausea always present? Cause that's what you need to do to make HIT effective right?

In my opinion, I train fairly hard and heavy. I haven't been able to find a consistent training partner willing to lift as intensely as I prefer to, but even then, I can't say I train to absolute failure every opportunity when I use HIT training. I haven't thrown up on squats (got REALLY close), haven't passed out, haven't had to lie down from the extreme fatigue. I have gotten nose bleeds, popped blood vessels in my eyes and face and opened up a pimple on my head from the bp causing blood to dribble down my head.

In your opinion, do you train hard/intensely enough to really make the most out of HIT training? Or do you just enjoy using moderate to high intensity and enjoying your gym sessions (which isn't a bad thing at all)?

 

[BigDM]

Read a recent article on IM about people who follow Dorian's training principles on HIT and it really got me thinking about how effective HIT is for everyday gym rats and bbers.

Before the discussion progresses, lets just say Dorian was an absolute beast. He was meticulous with his diet and sleep (all logged), he lived bodybuilding every second of his life while he was an olympia contender and he is a genetic monstrosity.

HIT is based off of "It’s based around doing as little sets and reps necessary to achieve maximal results. Why keep annihilating a muscle if it’s already been stimulated to the point needed for growth?".

Now my question is, who can actually say without a doubt, they are going to absolute failure despite the mind-numbing pain you're feeling with unwavering sense of exhaustion/nausea always present? Cause that's what you need to do to make HIT effective right?

In my opinion, I train fairly hard and heavy. I haven't been able to find a consistent training partner willing to lift as intensely as I prefer to, but even then, I can't say I train to absolute failure every opportunity when I use HIT training. I haven't thrown up on squats (got REALLY close), haven't passed out, haven't had to lie down from the extreme fatigue. I have gotten nose bleeds, popped blood vessels in my eyes and face and opened up a pimple on my head from the bp causing blood to dribble down my head.

In your opinion, do you train hard/intensely enough to really make the most out of HIT training? Or do you just enjoy using moderate to high intensity and enjoying your gym sessions (which isn't a bad thing at all)?

Here's another viewpoint on Dorian's training methods.

Click below:

Don?t Listen to Dorian!

 

[pieguy]

I just posted that link in my post. Click the IM.

 

[flexdurden]

My training is HIT based and I know for damn sure I am training intense. I feel crippled after a session with deep muscles soreness, despite using a recovery supplement. I do recover before my next session though.

I often rupture blood vessels and puke every so often. There have been a few times I blacked out on widowmakers. I've rack the weight on squats and literally dropped to the ground and came back to my sense a few seconds later only to wonder WTF happened. I've had my legs give out on me after leg training and this one is always fun, driving home after a leg day and having the blood pool in your legs and you can't stand.

The most intense sessions are leg days, but i've yakked on back days as well and after nearly every session I am sore. But as long as I keep beating my logbook and my physique keeps improving I am going to keep doing what I am doing.

 

[Bigd50]

I think most people think they train hard, but they really don't. I see people in the gym doing low intensity volume training with light to moderate weights and they get little progress. Go to a hardcore powerlifting gym and see how big and thick those guys are and they do the opposite of volume training. I remember an old saying that you can lift long or you can lift hard, but you can't do both. I think Dorian choose to lift hard and the results speak for themselves. As far as HIT for a normal lifter sure it's possible, but since most people don't lift for a living you have to find a version that works for your life.

 

[pieguy]

I'm trying to find a middle point in terms of lifting long and lifting hard. I know doing heavy compounds day in and day out is eventually going to catch up with me so I just try to pick my battles.

Blacking out after sets and throwing up is just taking me out of my comfort zone and I can see myself doing it once in a blue moon, but every leg day, no way. I shoot for progression, but I don't think full on HIT day in and day out will ever fit my lifestyle working a 9-5 on 6-7 hours of sleep.

 

[Tom]

HIT training will destroy your joints. Volume training with moderate weights will give you longevity and allow you to train well into your later years with little or no joint issues. Many people build impressive physiques without doing HIT.

 

[Pharm_Fed]

IMHO training until you black out, get nosebleeds or hernias isn't hardcore, it's stupid. You can train plenty hard enough to make progress without risking injury or destroying your body's longevity.

 

[Cornelius]

Heavy weight at the start of the workout using 3-10 reps then higher rep sets on later sets and exercises.

I have done all the extreme techniques and all it does is fry cns.
I like straight sets and some times rest pause no forced reps or any thing like that.

 

[Elvia1023]

I am gonna be my own devils advocate here. I always preach "train intense" but honestly, and in my experience (people I have seen or coached and myself included) the genetics determin size for most part. not the "way" you train. muscle insertion, leverage of joints due to tendon and ligament attachment etc is all genetic. even muscle fiber type etc. I have always wanted to go out on a limb and make a blanket statement: it doesn't matter how you train...... its just too blanket of a statement tho. but I feel there is ALOT of truth to it.
I have drastically changed the way I train from intense HIT to volume. and I damn near look exactly the same..... maybe everyone is different, but I am a human and I don't think the species varies that much...... genetics and drugs determines size. in the weight room, stimulation is stimulation.
-JS

x 10

I think I have trained too hard in the past. I had a mindset of pushing it as much as I could. Now I have a fucked up back and bad knees but I still do it... hard to get out off.

Genetics and drugs is 99% of things if you're not eating or training like an idiot.

 

[flexdurden]

IMHO training until you black out, get nosebleeds or hernias isn't hardcore, it's stupid. You can train plenty hard enough to make progress without risking injury or destroying your body's longevity.

If I have another rep in the tank, I am going to get it. Period. Since when is a nosebleed or blacking out (just lack of oxygen) an injury anyway?

 

[anab0lic]

HIT training will destroy your joints. Volume training with moderate weights will give you longevity and allow you to train well into your later years with little or no joint issues. Many people build impressive physiques without doing HIT.

No. HIT performed correctly there is a HUGE emphasis on performing each movement with good form maximizing muscle involvement and minimizing ligament/joint assistance. OFC its not the only training method that works, but IME works far better than anything else I have done...

Dorian has said if he didnt train HIT he wouldnt have been mr olympia (he trained other ways prior to that and got stuck at a certain size)... he may have had a good physique doing high volume or whatever else but its the intensity he trained at which got him to the monstrous size he was.

 

[chinaboy]

Funny, I was going to post about the same topic today.

I feel you can burn your candle from one end or from both ends. It depends on how long you want your candle to burn. Your joints can only take so much beating in a life time. Look at all of Dorian's injuries. Then look at Dexter Jackson who lifts 3 times a week, uses machines a lot and stops when he feels an injury brewing. He has been a pro for many years and also MR.O.

Also, who want to go to the gym to exhaust themselves until they puke. Thats ridiculous. How could you keep up with that for a long period of time before you injure yourself or start thinking "why am I doing this?".

In my opinion a mix of everything keeps you balanced both physically and mentally. This has worked the best for me.

 

[chinaboy]

x 10

I think I have trained too hard in the past. I had a mindset of pushing it as much as I could. Now I have a fucked up back and bad knees but I still do it... hard to get out off.

Genetics and drugs is 99% of things if you're not eating or training like an idiot.

I agree. I worked too hard in the past. You could say I work smarter now, not harder. I wish I knew this when I was young I could have saved a lot of time and effort.

And I agree with working muscle to failure compared to working the entire mechanism to failure; ligaments and connective tissue. Once the muscle is fatigued there is no reason to push further. You are just burning your joints after that threshold of muscle failure.

 

[Pharm_Fed]

If I have another rep in the tank, I am going to get it. Period. Since when is a nosebleed or blacking out (just lack of oxygen) an injury anyway?

Didn't mean to offend you (or anyone else), just my humble opinion. You have to know your limits and when to say when. Pushing through barriers doesn't happen in one training session, it's a slow progression. If your goal is to squat 405 for 20, you don't just go in one week and squat until you get anal prolapse from straining so hard, shit yourself and pass out hoping that gets you there faster. You slowly work up to that goal. Progressively. Intelligently.

And fwiw I wouldn't consider a nosebleed or passing out a normal occurrence. Hernias occur at that level of exertion and that is definitely an injury.

Didn't Dorian's career end, in large part, due to chronic injuries?

 

[red5150]

If I have another rep in the tank, I am going to get it. Period. Since when is a nosebleed or blacking out (just lack of oxygen) an injury anyway?

If your last rep causes either , you've got some major problems you need to get checked right away. Guys getting gushers squatting because their BP is sky high from drol and tren is not being hardcore. Fainting? SMH

Hey if you want hardcore, here is the ultimate for ya, he died dead-lifting. Don't get much more hardcore than that.

**broken link removed**

 

[pieguy]

So on two sides of the extremes, you have body part once a week split and on the other, HIT training. Where do things like body part twice a week with moderate intensity fit in? Does it fall in between or is it more of a HIT routine?

 

[Ocean cool]

U can try all the workout routines (theories) u want and it won't make a difference.

Train whatever u want. It makes not difference.

 

[flexdurden]

If your last rep causes either , you've got some major problems you need to get checked right away. Guys getting gushers squatting because their BP is sky high from drol and tren is not being hardcore. Fainting? SMH

Hey if you want hardcore, here is the ultimate for ya, he died dead-lifting. Don't get much more hardcore than that.

**broken link removed**

Well considering i'm on neither... I haven't gotten a nosebleed, but I have blacked out after racking the weight.

IMO, there is difference between knowing the type of pin that risks injury and pushing to a physical extreme where something like a blood vessel pops or you puke.

I've done some stupid shit too, like over exertion and pulling a muscle, and have learned from those mistakes, so I am trying to differentiate between the two and don't classify them as the same.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

U can try all the workout routines (theories) u want and it won't make a difference.

Train whatever u want. It makes not difference.

I will not disagree.
-JS