Training to Failure

[1fst400]

You don’t need to go to muscular failure to grow muscle. That research is clear.

Besides a fraction of the people who say they go to failure aren’t. They’re posturing, trying to look hard.

Completing your last rep and not being able to do another isn’t failure. That’s 0 reps in the tank. Failure training is going until your last rep breaks down and you cannot compete it, which almost always requires a spotter of some sort. That is failure.

 

[1bigun11]

Not to hijack this thread, but imagine being a skinny 14 year old kid and seeing these monsters in a workout promo video. I had to wait 2 years to get a gym membership because you had to be 16 to belong to the local gym. It was my 16th bday present from my mom.

If you ever saw Precious Paul alone he looked really good. But beside those two he looked like a little shrimp, lol

 

[qbkilla]

I think failure is way to overanalyzed. Some people use form failure, then some will say "failure is never achieved because you didn't get injured trying hard enough". Imo, everyone has their own definition of failure. I think if you can't complete another rep that is sufficient to be failure. If you are consistent with what failure is you can measure progression week to week. Most people can hit failure on bicep curls, hammer chest press, oh press...the majority of exercises. Squats, deads, probably not. For those exercises RIR may be useful but I think regular progression short of failure can be achieved without trying to assign some subjective number to each set where you grade yourself on effort or attempt to guess how many reps short you were. If we assume people can't be trusted to determine what is failure than they are even making things more ambiguous by now guessing how many reps short they are.

If you think someone can't be trusted to judge if they gave all out effort in a 10 second sprint how can you tell them they are able to judge what 90,80,70 percent of "all out is" when they don't even know what 100% is?

 

[danieltx]

I think failure is way to overanalyzed. Some people use form failure, then some will say "failure is never achieved because you didn't get injured trying hard enough". Imo, everyone has their own definition of failure. I think if you can't complete another rep that is sufficient to be failure. If you are consistent with what failure is you can measure progression week to week. Most people can hit failure on bicep curls, hammer chest press, oh press...the majority of exercises. Squats, deads, probably not. For those exercises RIR may be useful but I think regular progression short of failure can be achieved without trying to assign some subjective number to each set where you grade yourself on effort or attempt to guess how many reps short you were. If we assume people can't be trusted to determine what is failure than they are even making things more ambiguous by now guessing how many reps short they are.

If you think someone can't be trusted to judge if they gave all out effort in a 10 second sprint how can you tell they are able to judge what 90,80,70 percent of "all out is" when they don't even know what 100% is?

Take 'failure' out of it - guys just need to train really fucking hard and and most don't truly know what that is. Come watch me, @b-boy, @luki7788, @TheOtherOne55, @Palifter train and you'll understand why you aren't making the progress you want. We didn't become the biggest through tons of drugs or genetics, we became the biggest through a lot of hard work over a lot of years.

 

[luki7788]

Take 'failure' out of it - guys just need to train really fucking hard and and most don't truly know what that is. Come watch me, @b-boy, @luki7788, @TheOtherOne55, @Palifter train and you'll understand why you aren't making the progress you want. We didn't become the biggest through tons of drugs or genetics, we became the biggest through a lot of hard work over a lot of years.

exactly - you don't have to teen to failure, just train hard and most people in the gym from what i see train on RIR 5 lol

 

[xpoc]

If you ever saw Precious Paul alone he looked really good. But beside those two he looked like a little shrimp, lol

Ask and you shall receive:

 

[qbkilla]

Take 'failure' out of it - guys just need to train really fucking hard and and most don't truly know what that is. Come watch me, @b-boy, @luki7788, @TheOtherOne55, @Palifter train and you'll understand why you aren't making the progress you want. We didn't become the biggest through tons of drugs or genetics, we became the biggest through a lot of hard work over a lot of years.

Agree with this. I'd say in my younger years you are right I was too focused on "optimized" training, looking for the perfect routine vs just training hard.

This is the opposite what the IG "coaches" I call them salesman are pushing. Telling people to train hard aka what we typically think as failure without obsessing over what it actually means doesn't sell. What sells is training systems, reinventing the wheel, advanced periodization, fancy secret exercises, a routine with week 1 leave 2 rir, week 3 just 1 rir, rpe scale, all the bullshit with Sprinkled in drug combos, peptides, enzymes, and a pre-workout no less than 10 ingredients.

People don't like simple answers and don't want to hear train hard, eat in a surplus, don't get fat and sleep alot.

 

[lifter]

Lol. Go a little less with the gaslighting. I have not poached any members here or anywhere else. I make friends and have a lot of them all over the community. If you didn’t troll, you’d have some friends too. I’m only here because you made a comment about my kids. Creepy dirtbag. Don’t discuss other people’s family.

It’s ok, you can admit that your butthurt that you are obsessed. Nice avi by the way.

If you’re so serious about this then post a picture of your physique. Post a picture of the gym you train at. Post a picture of your training log. Fuck even a picture of the tub of protein powder you have in a cabinet Anything. You can’t and you won’t because you’re a pretender.

You know what, fair if fair. I need to let this go. Avi changed.

 

[juggy38]

I feel like we have went off topic

 

[1bigun11]

Ask and you shall receive:

Thanks for this. Brings back memories…

 

[Cerberus777]

I feel like we have went off topic

Yeah, different kind of failure.

 

[lifter]

Yeah, different kind of failure.

Ok, that is pretty funny. Props.

 

[alfresco]

correct. apologies. I wasn't going to say anything else but he was spreading rumors on other boards and then that post here. I wanted to clean up his 'kids' comment.

I down with the training to failure discussion although I don't have much more to add to what I said initially.

I do agree that most don't truly train to failure. To me, it means you can't push anymore and on a lift like bench, you must have a spotter to truly reach this point.. RIRs can be a misleading title.

A way around the safety issue on bench pressing and squats if simple and I used it many times (as does my partner) is doing these exercises in a power cage with a safety bar in place to save your life.

Just a thought.

Although on second thought, not having those features in place and having your life in danger upon failure may provide sufficient motivation to get that one extra rep

 

[lifter]

A way around the safety issue on bench pressing and squats if simple and I used it many times (as does my partner) is doing these exercises in a power cage with a safety bar in place to save your life.

Just a thought.

Although on second thought, not having those features in place and having your life in danger upon failure may provide sufficient motivation to get that one extra rep

I don't use clips any more so I got that going for me. Much easier to get that shit off if I peter out.

 

[juggy38]

I played D2, and started anabolics my sophomore year…..redshirt year natty, freshman natty, then test EQ for sophomore offseason. I don’t regret it, I just wish I knew more back then.

I got tested once, when we went to the NCAA D2 playoffs. Somehow I passed the test, even though 3-4 months prior to that I was on boldenone. Maybe I got lucky, or maybe it was just a street drug test

 

[pesty4077]

correct. apologies. I wasn't going to say anything else but he was spreading rumors on other boards and then that post here. I wanted to clean up his 'kids' comment.

I down with the training to failure discussion although I don't have much more to add to what I said initially.

I do agree that most don't truly train to failure. To me, it means you can't push anymore and on a lift like bench, you must have a spotter to truly reach this point.. RIRs can be a misleading title.

Keep the drama off here from other boards.

 

[Push50]

My joints don’t handle going to failure like they used to. If I d code to go to failur it’s on one maybe two sets max

 

[MrWhisper]

I do not have a spotter since I workout in my garage gym so sometimes can be difficult to push to failure on heavy compound lifts.

 

[Earl]

If you have been lifting long enough to failure is a invite to a injury plus it hurts the next workout in my opinion cause you train to true failure you can't recover fast enough for next workout just my opinion

 

[BLang]

Completing your last rep and not being able to do another isn’t failure. That’s 0 reps in the tank. Failure training is going until your last rep breaks down and you cannot compete it, which almost always requires a spotter of some sort. That is failure.

The vast majority of machines allow you to do this no problem.

Anyway, I can't believe we have this same thread every few weeks and the same 3 or 4 points get made back and forth.

The TLR of what matters is always the same:

- Training close to failure most of the time is probably optimal.
- Occasionally going beyond failure can be beneficial.
- Training away from failure can have some benefits, but needs to be accommodated for with more sets to make up the lack of effective reps.
- Failure itself can be tough to define because there's a large window where you can put a gun to someone's head who thinks they hit failure and suddenly they find 3 reps, etc. etc.
- All of this is pointless for the majority of beginner/intermediate trainees because very few people really know what it's like to push a set hard, and intentionally leaving "reps in the tank" for someone who doesn't really know how to train to failure is likely going to cause them to make their training borderline if not completely ineffective.

And the most important one:

- Mike Israetel is a hack who set training culture back several years by making a career out of misinterpreting faulty science and selling it to newbies on reddit. He's now carefully backing off from that but has to do so slowly lest he admit his entire career was fraudulent.