I think you can get plenty big with test , HGH and slin and with the right diet you can get just as lean and hard by dropping the slin and adding a healthy dose of masteron and winstrol and the normal diet drugs like T3 and Clen
So yea i think you can get their without tren
but for the love of all things holy it would sure be alot easier with it!!
ive never takin anything that gets me stronger and leans out as fast as tren , it realy messes with my agression so i limit its use to the last half of contest prep.
Some guys say the side go away when you run it at high dose and run test at low dose but im scared to try it , i think id make world news for a freakout if i took a gram of tren