Tren/Androgen Cheat Sheet

[bbxtreme]

Just as the title implies I wanted to consolidate all things tren and androgens to one thread. Remember none of this is medical advice. It’s simply my experience as I’m a student of my own work.

When I say tren below I am also referring to high androgens so use them interchangeably as tren is just the harshest. This can mean nandrolone, high test, EQ etc.

Before getting into the things that happen and what to do I think it’s important to cover the never ending question-

“I used to be able to use tren, nandralone, high test etc with no issue. What’s changed?”

Nothing has changed, you just got older. The items below are for guys that are 22 on tren and those at 35 and older. Just because you don’t feel something doesn’t mean it’s not happening. And if you’re lucky, and do these things then maybe you’ll be one of the lucky ones and have no long term health issues from tren and androgens.

Testing:

Cardiac: EKG, Echo, CT angio or at least CT calcium.

Bloodwork: NT-proBNP, HSCRP, lipid panel, homocysteine, Factor V, iron, ferritin and CMP, full CBC for HCT

Why- before pushing androgens or tren make sure your heart is healthy enough to take that risk.

What do they impact- why do we get sides?

1. Cardiovascular and Vascular Tone:
Tren and androgens cause hypertension and vasoconstriction through increasing sympathetic tone and decreasing NO production.

Symptoms- BP over 125/80, chest tightness

Supplements: Citrulline 6-8g, Taurine 3-4g, Magnesium Glycinate 400-600mg, ubiquinol 200mg

Medications: ACE or ARB, Cialis 2.5-5mg (restores NO cGMP pathway), Nebilivol (increases)

Foods- beets as they contain nitrates

Peptides- SS-31. Why do I like it for tren:

• Improve diastolic relaxation of the heart.
• Reduce oxidative stress and fibrosis.
• Enhance endothelial nitric-oxide signaling and microvascular dilation.
• Increase exercise tolerance and muscle mitochondrial function.

Chest Pressure/ High Afterload
Tied to the above this is usually tied to high BP, but also HCT being elevated (blood thickness). It’s also due to vascular stiffness.

Solutions- BP Meds, hydration, sleep apnea, 8000iu nattokinase, and “donate” blood as last resort 1-2 times annually (guys will do more. I don’t).

Resting HR Elevation

This is generally due to the Catecholamine surge, especially with tren.

Solutions- this is where Ivabradine can be of help. As you’ll see here it’s under a different category than Nebilivol as they work differently and each have a time and place. Start low as more isn’t better.

2. CNS/ Mood Sleep
Anxiety and Irritability

Now there’s no supplement that will fix you being an asshole, but we can work on the foundational things for most. Check yourself while on tren, or better yet have your wife do it.

Tren increases dopamine and decreases GABA and norepinephrine.

Possible solutions- theanine 200-400mg AM/PM, Magnesium Threonate, and Taurine. Theanine crossed the blood brain barrier hence it’s used.
Ashwagandha 1000mg daily.

Peptides- Semax/Selank

Insomnia/Sleep Disturbance

Catecholamine excess is one of the main culprits followed by MCAS/excess histamine (covered more in depth below).

Solutions- glycine 4-6g before bed, melatonin, limit caffeine and Ivabradine can offer some relief if RHR related.

3. Histamine and Mast Cell Activation Syndrome

Increased androgen load and fluctuations causes MCAS. This is bloating, GERD, acid reflux, night sweats, headaches, tren cough and sometimes itchiness.

Solutions- limit high histamine foods such as anything fermented, tomatoes, spicy foods, Greek yogurt etc.

You also want to fix the gut as that’s the root cause which is tricky as most fermented foods are high histamine.

Supplements- quercetin, bromelain, stinging nettle, holy basil to reduce MCAS and DAO to digest excess histamine.

OTC- Anti-histamine (Zyrtec) for respiratory and Prilosec for GI issues. There is one supplement on Amazon that has all of these, no I can’t link it here.

So let’s recap:

- take a good pre-workout stim free for heart health with Citrulline 8g daily
- add taurine daily 3-4g
- add magnesium glyciante and Threonate for at least 600mg daily total
- add SS-31 1-2.5mg daily while on cycles of tren
- take cialis 2.5mg - 5mg daily
- theanine 200-400mg daily
- 5mg melatonin prior to bed

If RHR climbs over 70-80bpm consider Ivabradine.

If BP climbs over 125/80 add in Lisinopril or ARB at minimum viable dosage and can consider Nebilivol if tolerated.

As always, enjoy and welcome discussion and input from other smarter minds here. If someone isn’t already offering this somewhere as a paid module, they will/should be. But we are all in this together so believe it should be free.

As most of you know I don’t have much time to respond to DM’s and charge for anything outside of what I post here publicly. I wish I had more hours in the day and that’s not a promotion as I make my outside this sport.

Apologies for any typos as I just write as I go.

I hope this thread and knowledge helps others as this place has me over a decade.

 

[Swifto]

Great post!

Semax and Selank doses you have experience with?

 

[kadafi2]

When I say tren below I am also referring to high androgens so use them interchangeably as tren is just the harshest. This can mean nandrolone, high test, EQ etc.

You wrote "androgens" about nandrolone and eq. It's obvious that they are androgens to some extent, but according to the indexes, they're more anabolic. I always thought that if a steroid is androgen < anabolic, we simply call it anabolic. This is just nitpicking, but I'm curious how you see it?

 

[bbxtreme]

You wrote "androgens" about nandrolone and eq. It's obvious that they are androgens to some extent, but according to the indexes, they're more anabolic. I always thought that if a steroid is androgen < anabolic, we simply call it anabolic. This is just nitpicking, but I'm curious how you see it?

It’s really just about “how androgenic” they are as you said. That’s why I noted in my post that tren is obviously the harshest.

My biggest point was to say that all steroids cause these issues to an extent, not just tren. I mentioned it in the nandralone thread about a week back as the same vasoconstriction takes place from using it as it does from tren. And personally it hits me harder than tren. That doesn’t make it more androgenic than tren by any means, but we do know it’s more anabolic and better for overall growth.

There’s still a lot to this that we don’t know, but I think it’s important to cover the things we do so less guys will stop dropping dead from heart issues after going on cycle.

 

[bbxtreme]

Great post!

Semax and Selank doses you have experience with?

Up to a mg daily of each used via nasal spray is my experience. 2-3X daily as well.

I like Selank overall better if I had to pick one to offset tren sides.

 

[specter]

Good post with some real solid advice man !

 

[Ranchhand]

Good post with some real solid advice man !

Great post!

Semax and Selank doses you have experience with?

This is exactly what I thought as soon as I read a little way into bbx's post. Very good info, it reads like he laid it out with his own thoughts from investing the time to do the research, I value that a lot. I know a good bit of this can apply to me. I'm currently using selank and can tell a little difference. Because of what I've experience so far, I'm considering trying semax as well. Upping my selank dose is probably a good idea as well. I haven't used Tren in years now, really can't because of what has been stated. After years of Tren use on and off, I started a run and out of nowhere the sides hit me like a freight train. I knew what could be going on because of what I heard in the past from other guys getting hit out of nowhere with sides being exponentially worse than they ever experienced previously. Tried Tren at lower doses all the way down to microdosing, no go. Ever since shelving Tren I've been battling with sleep issues. Tried everything I can get my hands on including sleep aids with GABA, melatonin, theanine, Magnesium, and Ashwagandha, etc. CPAP and prescription drugs, I've stopped the prescription drugs, just don't feel right the next day. Keep my BP in check, using Telmisartan and Amlodipine. Haven't tried mitochondrial peptides yet but definitely want to. Thought about Mots-C first, but after reading this maybe it will be SS-31 first. I know SS-31 is the best for repairing damaged mitochondria, which is probably what I need the most. Excellent thread bbxtreme, I will definitely be following.

 

[Aikman56]

This is fantastic information, thank you for sharing!

 

[bbxtreme]

This is exactly what I thought as soon as I read a little way into bbx's post. Very good info, it reads like he laid it out with his own thoughts from investing the time to do the research, I value that a lot. I know a good bit of this can apply to me. I'm currently using selank and can tell a little difference. Because of what I've experience so far, I'm considering trying semax as well. Upping my selank dose is probably a good idea as well. I haven't used Tren in years now, really can't because of what has been stated. After years of Tren use on and off, I started a run and out of nowhere the sides hit me like a freight train. I knew what could be going on because of what I heard in the past from other guys getting hit out of nowhere with sides being exponentially worse than they ever experienced previously. Tried Tren at lower doses all the way down to microdosing, no go. Ever since shelving Tren I've been battling with sleep issues. Tried everything I can get my hands on including sleep aids with GABA, melatonin, theanine, Magnesium, and Ashwagandha, etc. CPAP and prescription drugs, I've stopped the prescription drugs, just don't feel right the next day. Keep my BP in check, using Telmisartan and Amlodipine. Haven't tried mitochondrial peptides yet but definitely want to. Thought about Mots-C first, but after reading this maybe it will be SS-31 first. I know SS-31 is the best for repairing damaged mitochondria, which is probably what I need the most. Excellent thread bbxtreme, I will definitely be following.

Tren leads to severe rebound insomnia, restlessness, and disrupted circadian rhythm due to catecholamine excess, dopamine downregulation, and suppressed natural cortisol and melatonin balance.

Pretty much the same things I outlined above will restore it with the addition of 1-2mg of melatonin nightly will do the trick over time as long as cortisol is balanced.

This is why I still limit it to 6-8 week cycles twice a year tops as the rebound on all fronts is not fun. SS-31 would be a great addition and keep Selank between 200-400 mcg twice daily.

I agree medications are a last resort, but can be used as you supplement and restore the natural levels. Trazadone would be the lightest option. Mirtazapine would be a bit stronger. But again, both are patches and would use minimum dosages while fixing natural systems. And all that aside, it still takes time and depends on how much and how long it was run.

 

[Ranchhand]

Tren leads to severe rebound insomnia, restlessness, and disrupted circadian rhythm due to catecholamine excess, dopamine downregulation, and suppressed natural cortisol and melatonin balance.

Pretty much the same things I outlined above will restore it with the addition of 1-2mg of melatonin nightly will do the trick over time as long as cortisol is balanced.

This is the most useful info I've been handed in years for my inability to sleep at night. It's different than the insomnia from Tren but still falls in that category of insomnia. I pulled my supps out to see what I'm actually taking compared to everything you mentioned in your post. Below is the comparison:

- Citrulline 6-8g, Taurine 3-4g -- I'm not taking either
- ubiquinol 200mg = (COQ10) -- Was taking, will have to get some more
- BP Meds: ACE or ARB, Cialis 2.5-5mg -- Telmisartan 80mg, Amlodipine 10mg, Cialis 20mg
- Foods- beets as they contain nitrates -- No, but this is a quick easy fix
- glycine 4-6g before bed -- Not doing but will start
- GABA -- Taking 300mg before bed
- Magnesium Glycinate 400-600mg -- Taking 240mg before bed so I'll have to up the dose
- theanine 200-400mg daily -- Taking 600mg before bed
- 5mg melatonin prior to bed -- Taking 18mg before bed
- Ashwagandha 1000mg daily -- Not taking but will have to start
- 8000iu nattokinase -- Taking 2000iu, will have to up the dose
- Peptides- SS-31 1-2.5mg daily -- Will get some, adding a mitochondrial pep was my next move
- Peptides- Selank -- Pinning Selank at 250mcg once a day. Would it be worth pinning 250mcg morning & night(500mcg)?

bbxtreme, I greatly appreciate your input. This has been a struggle for me and for the first time someone has presented an actual solution to fix my insomnia, most likely induced from extended Tren use in the past. My insomnia definitely coincides with my period of heavy Tren use and then kicking it to the curb. Plus, I do have an infinity for androgens. The medical community had no fix other than prescribing sleep meds that just masked the situation and made me feel like shit. I do have a question about the peptides. Budget has me making a choice between SS-31 and Semax, I'm going to assume getting the SS-31 over the Semax is the best thing right now, seeing I am taking Selank, what's your thoughts?

Thanks, brother, much appreciated

 

[bbxtreme]

This is the most useful info I've been handed in years for my inability to sleep at night. It's different than the insomnia from Tren but still falls in that category of insomnia. I pulled my supps out to see what I'm actually taking compared to everything you mentioned in your post. Below is the comparison:

- Citrulline 6-8g, Taurine 3-4g -- I'm not taking either
- ubiquinol 200mg = (COQ10) -- Was taking, will have to get some more
- BP Meds: ACE or ARB, Cialis 2.5-5mg -- Telmisartan 80mg, Amlodipine 10mg, Cialis 20mg
- Foods- beets as they contain nitrates -- No, but this is a quick easy fix
- glycine 4-6g before bed -- Not doing but will start
- GABA -- Taking 300mg before bed
- Magnesium Glycinate 400-600mg -- Taking 240mg before bed so I'll have to up the dose
- theanine 200-400mg daily -- Taking 600mg before bed
- 5mg melatonin prior to bed -- Taking 18mg before bed
- Ashwagandha 1000mg daily -- Not taking but will have to start
- 8000iu nattokinase -- Taking 2000iu, will have to up the dose
- Peptides- SS-31 1-2.5mg daily -- Will get some, adding a mitochondrial pep was my next move
- Peptides- Selank -- Pinning Selank at 250mcg once a day. Would it be worth pinning 250mcg morning & night(500mcg)?

bbxtreme, I greatly appreciate your input. This has been a struggle for me and for the first time someone has presented an actual solution to fix my insomnia, most likely induced from extended Tren use in the past. My insomnia definitely coincides with my period of heavy Tren use and then kicking it to the curb. Plus, I do have an infinity for androgens. The medical community had no fix other than prescribing sleep meds that just masked the situation and made me feel like shit. I do have a question about the peptides. Budget has me making a choice between SS-31 and Semax, I'm going to assume getting the SS-31 over the Semax is the best thing right now, seeing I am taking Selank, what's your thoughts?

Thanks, brother, much appreciated

SS-31 for sure if you’re using Semax. I’m sponsored by them, but they’re still the cheapest- YMS has SS-31 far cheaper than any other supplier. I think Bitcoin30 code gets you 30% off as well for guys on here. You could use them and maybe afford both.

But bump that magnesium, add glycine if you’re not using it 4-6g and take the theanine on an empty stomach if you can as it will absorb and work much better. It crosses the blood brain barrier so absorbing it all is key.

Hope this helps!

 

[Massive G]

Nice post. I am following to see others experieces if they follow the protocols outlined. But for me you couldn't pay me enough money to take any type of tren. I look upon those days with fond memories of the enhancements to my physique but have PTSD when remembering the mental sides and sleep disruption. I am a nice guy and didn't like the roid rage symptoms. Cost me a few good relationships no violence just very very short fuse angry and intense. Good for the gym but not for life. I never got close to crazy doses either.

 

[Ranchhand]

SS-31 for sure if you’re using Semax. I’m sponsored by them, but they’re still the cheapest- YMS has SS-31 far cheaper than any other supplier. I think Bitcoin30 code gets you 30% off as well for guys on here. You could use them and maybe afford both.

But bump that magnesium, add glycine if you’re not using it 4-6g and take the theanine on an empty stomach if you can as it will absorb and work much better. It crosses the blood brain barrier so absorbing it all is key.

Hope this helps!

Absolutely, your input helps, thanks!

I'll make the necessary adjustments and report back in this thread.

 

[Ranchhand]

Nice post. I am following to see others experieces if they follow the protocols outlined. But for me you couldn't pay me enough money to take any type of tren. I look upon those days with fond memories of the enhancements to my physique but have PTSD when remembering the mental sides and sleep disruption. I am a nice guy and didn't like the roid rage symptoms. Cost me a few good relationships no violence just very very short fuse angry and intense. Good for the gym but not for life. I never got close to crazy doses either.

I hear ya brother. My best looks were when Tren was involved. I never lost my shit physically, but there were a lot of internal struggles for sure, lots of mental self-control not to just loose it and beat the shit out of someone. I know Tren was behind the scenes in some relationship issues. Tren never got me in any real trouble, but it very could have if I wasn't aware to be extra vigilant with self-control. As this point I don't miss Tren at all, overall well-being has become much more important to me.

 

[bbxtreme]

Nice post. I am following to see others experieces if they follow the protocols outlined. But for me you couldn't pay me enough money to take any type of tren. I look upon those days with fond memories of the enhancements to my physique but have PTSD when remembering the mental sides and sleep disruption. I am a nice guy and didn't like the roid rage symptoms. Cost me a few good relationships no violence just very very short fuse angry and intense. Good for the gym but not for life. I never got close to crazy doses either.

To be fair and reminder as I say it on here all the time. It’s highly unlikely that I will ever use tren again when I am done competing. I really think it’s overkill for those who don’t.

 

[Ranchhand]

When I was heavily experimenting with Tren is when a lot of guys were openly using higher doses. I was definitely younger back then and handled the sides much better. But the sides were definitely there. I had multiple runs with Tren being at 700mg, not many, but more than one. Most of the time it was 350mg, but now we know even 350 is a lot. My body weight fluctuated between 225 - 235 at the time. So, it wasn't like I was 250 and my body could more easily absorb those Tren doses. Knowing the doses I used back then and the information that's out now, no wonder I need to get my overall health back in order. Plus, I love androgens and there were other androgens in the mix with my Tren doses. Even though Tren is no longer in my life I still have an infinity for androgens, I keep things simple these days, mainly lower doses of Test with an occasional androgen like Mast, or something similar sprinkled in.

 

[iron lifter]

what about the mental sides of tren?? adding in low dose masteron DHT to offset tren mental sides? CBD etc?

 

[Worldsfastestfatty]

Not quite to the point but Ill ask here incase anyone has any suggestions...

For the last 6 months I pee very little during the day then wake up at night to pee 3 or 4 times. Started on a blast (circa 2g) but has continued into my cruise (300mg).

Prostate score is 0.8
Efgr is 103

I drink 4.5 - 6 litres of water everyday (and am quite consistent as am a creature of routine)

Any clues?

 

[bbxtreme]

what about the mental sides of tren?? adding in low dose masteron DHT to offset tren mental sides? CBD etc?

Mast won’t do much. I mentioned it in anther thread, but many use Mirtazapine to offset these and it levels them out. It also helps with the insomnia and histamine. I just try not to lead with medications as most will jump to them and create more long term problems.

 

[iron lifter]

Mast won’t do much. I mentioned it in anther thread, but many use Mirtazapine to offset these and it levels them out. It also helps with the insomnia and histamine. I just try not to lead with medications as most will jump to them and create more long term problems.

THANKS, most say Mast does offset some mental sides, but i think using tren is behind me in now i didn't include in the past few times not sure if it did a whole lot myself.