TRENBOLONE and igf1 levels - Blood tests

[NorwegianMuscle]

Yes, so:

tren lowers systemic/liver IGF-I (because it reduces natural GH release and does the next thing):
but tren dramatically INCREASES the actual muscle's response to that systemic IGF-I (it does this by making more efficient use of that IGF-I as a precursor for special subtypes of IGF-I that exist inside the muscle)
so, though tren lowers natural (endogenous) GH levels, if we force that GH into the body, it'll still increase that systemic IGF-I floating around and allow for more opportunities when that IGF-I that's floating around comes into contact with muscles to increase the muscle's growth.

Even if bloodwork for serum IGF-I is "low," on tren, be sure that tren is making better use of the IGF-I inside the muscles.

Thank you for explaining this.

 

[fredmac82]

Hahah I really like your style bro, this post had be laughing out loud. Yeah I know it's chem nerd shit, but I always delve into the shit once I start learning about it. Don't have to memorize any formulas, just some rules of thumb are that tren does lower GH response (IGF-I), aromatizing androgens like test/deca/dbol synergize with GH, don't take estradiol pills like some people have started to do.

Sorry to be responding to such an old post, but I am doing some research. Would it be safe to say if you're taking GH that you shouldn't use tren at the same time because tren lowers GH response? So maybe instead of taking test + tren, use Test + Deca, if you are also using GH? Just trying to understand.

 

[fredmac82]

Yes, so:

tren lowers systemic/liver IGF-I (because it reduces natural GH release and does the next thing):
but tren dramatically INCREASES the actual muscle's response to that systemic IGF-I (it does this by making more efficient use of that IGF-I as a precursor for special subtypes of IGF-I that exist inside the muscle)
so, though tren lowers natural (endogenous) GH levels, if we force that GH into the body, it'll still increase that systemic IGF-I floating around and allow for more opportunities when that IGF-I that's floating around comes into contact with muscles to increase the muscle's growth.

Even if bloodwork for serum IGF-I is "low," on tren, be sure that tren is making better use of the IGF-I inside the muscles.

Oops, I didn't see this post. Sorry, looks like you already answered the question. Tren + GH is a good combo even if the Tren lowers your IGF-1 serum levels, the Tren allows your body to make better use of the IGF-1 inside the muscles. This was all a bit confusing at first and you freak out when you're taking GH with tren and you go get your bloodwork done to check your IGF-1 serum levels and your numbers come back lower than you expected. Now I know it's because of the Tren. Do I have it right? LOL.

 

[Type-IIx]

Oops, I didn't see this post. Sorry, looks like you already answered the question. Tren + GH is a good combo even if the Tren lowers your IGF-1 serum levels, the Tren allows your body to make better use of the IGF-1 inside the muscles. This was all a bit confusing at first and you freak out when you're taking GH with tren and you go get your bloodwork done to check your IGF-1 serum levels and your numbers come back lower than you expected. Now I know it's because of the Tren. Do I have it right? LOL.

Yes, that's right.

 

[fredmac82]

Yes, that's right.

Thank you @Type-IIx , I was having this same issue. I am taking roughly 15IUs of TPs GH a day. along with Test + Tren. When I would get my bloodwork done my GH Serum levels would be high showing I am taking real GH, but my IGF-1 levels would be in the normal range, which is lower than I would expect my IGF-1 numbers to be given I am taking 15IUs of GH a day. Now I see that taking Tren lowers the IGF-1 numbers on the lab results but in all actuality, my body is just making better use of IGF-1.

 

[fredmac82]

@Type-IIx I plan on adding IGF-1 lr3 to my cycle. Would taking tren along with IGF-1 lr3 work the same way? Meaning would taking tren help the body utilize the IGF-1 lr3 more effectively?

 

[Xplicit]

Yes, so:

tren lowers systemic/liver IGF-I (because it reduces natural GH release and does the next thing):
but tren dramatically INCREASES the actual muscle's response to that systemic IGF-I (it does this by making more efficient use of that IGF-I as a precursor for special subtypes of IGF-I that exist inside the muscle)
so, though tren lowers natural (endogenous) GH levels, if we force that GH into the body, it'll still increase that systemic IGF-I floating around and allow for more opportunities when that IGF-I that's floating around comes into contact with muscles to increase the muscle's growth.

Even if bloodwork for serum IGF-I is "low," on tren, be sure that tren is making better use of the IGF-I inside the muscles.

This is pure gold. I owe an apology to a source lol.

Thank you.

 

[fredmac82]

This is pure gold. I owe an apology to a source lol.

Thank you.

I agree this is pure gold. I also thought my source supplied me with bunk GH because when I did the bloodwork for my IGF-1 serum levels my numbers were only in the normal range and with the amount of GH I was taking I expected my IGF-1 serum numbers to be higher. But I am also taking Tren and it is good to know that tren lowers systemic/liver IGF-I, but tren dramatically INCREASES the actual muscle's response to that systemic IGF-I.

As Type-IIx stated, Even if bloodwork for serum IGF-I is "low," on tren, be sure that tren is making better use of the IGF-I inside the muscles.

 

[Mufasa123]

Moderate tren turned my 4iu IGF from high 300s to around 160. That said, didn't notice any issue with desired effects.

 

[specter]

Moderate tren turned my 4iu IGF from high 300s to around 160. That said, didn't notice any issue with desired effects.

PPL i general are way to concerned about systemic IGF numbers.

 

[pickapeck]

How is trenbolone diminishing liver output of IGF-1? Is it a down regulation event or a toxic event?

 

[fredmac82]

How is trenbolone diminishing liver output of IGF-1? Is it a down regulation event or a toxic event?

Below is what @Type-IIx had to say about this topic.

"tren lowers systemic/liver IGF-I (because it reduces natural GH release and does the next thing):
but tren dramatically INCREASES the actual muscle's response to that systemic IGF-I (it does this by making more efficient use of that IGF-I as a precursor for special subtypes of IGF-I that exist inside the muscle)
so, though tren lowers natural (endogenous) GH levels, if we force that GH into the body, it'll still increase that systemic IGF-I floating around and allow for more opportunities when that IGF-I that's floating around comes into contact with muscles to increase the muscle's growth.

Even if bloodwork for serum IGF-I is "low," on tren, be sure that tren is making better use of the IGF-I inside the muscles."

 

[mexbeast]

We should remember that GH , igf1, and insulin are proteins, tren is one of the most potent anabolics, which means tren will push more proteins into the muscle from the blood stream, that's another possibility as to why you may not see as much of said proteins in your plasma

 

[TheRoid]

Since IGF-1 and Insulin receptors engage similar signalling pathways as they're highly homologous, and so can also bind and activate the other receptor (although with reduced affinity), would it be reasonable to hypothesize a similar phenomenon with endogenous/exogenous slin as well?

 

[TheRoid]

We should remember that GH , igf1, and insulin are proteins, tren is one of the most potent anabolics, which means tren will push more proteins into the muscle from the blood stream, that's another possibility as to why you may not see as much of said proteins in your plasma

The human body does not process peptide hormones like it does with muscle amino acids influx for protein synthesis.

 

[mexbeast]

The human body does not process peptide hormones like it does with muscle amino acids influx for protein synthesis.

So you mean nothing will increase their uptake into the receptors?

 

[Doitagain]

So, let me use this post to clarify things:
- Tren + rhGH ⇒ ↑mIGF-I (muscle isoform of IGF-I)
- Test + Tren + rhGH ⇒ ↑cIGF-I (systemic-liver IGF-I) & ↑mIGF-I

Whereas,
E2 (say, purposefully taking an estradiol pill) + Tren + rhGH ⇒ ↓cIGF-I (due to the absence of in situ aromatization + IGBP-1 negative feedback)

I have seen lots of evidence of rhGH ⇒ ↑cIGF-I, before "settling" at a much lower serum IGF-I after between 6 and 9 months of continuous use.

@Type-IIx
Here's a theory and nothing more, mere speculation.

If aromatization ITSELF increases cIGF-I, whereas the product of aromatization negatively feeds back...Boldenone may be the commercially available AAS best suited to increase cIGF-1 since it definitely aromatizes yet the process yields little to no E2 and E1 is an extremely weak estrogen.

Thoughts?

 

[Type-IIx]

@Type-IIx
Here's a theory and nothing more, mere speculation.

If aromatization ITSELF increases cIGF-I, whereas the product of aromatization negatively feeds back...Boldenone may be the commercially available AAS best suited to increase cIGF-1 since it definitely aromatizes yet the process yields little to no E2 and E1 is an extremely weak estrogen.

Thoughts?

That's very good thinking! It would be true if all else were equal. But since boldenone's aromatization rate (Vmax) is hindered (vs. testosterone) since aromatization of androsta-1,4-diene-3-ones like boldenone proceed slowly, its increase to IGF-I is also relatively reduced.

Illustrative Michaelis-Menten curve:

But we can take your logic and expand it a bit to the case of Dianabol (17α-methylated boldenone; an androsta-1,4-diene-3-one) that is even more resistant to aromatase (lower Vmax) because of the 17AA configuration and produces a more potent aromatic product than the reference drug (testosterone).

If my model hypothesis, that aromatization (process) increases IGF-I while the products (estrogens) reduce it is true, then a comparable dose of Dbol vs. EQ should result in lower IGF-I values for equimolar doses (per-mg) of Dbol vs. EQ.

So, 45 mg/d (15 mg t.i.d.) Dianabol (p.o.) vs. 525 mg EQ weekly (i.m.), frontloaded to get up to steady-state at a reasonable time given the long undecylenate ester, should after a sufficient duration, show IGF-I for EQ > Dianabol.

 

[specter]

So you mean nothing will increase their uptake into the receptors?

Bro wtf are you on about ? you make 0 sense..

 

[Hyperemia]

So you mean nothing will increase their uptake into the receptors?

More muscle will. More muscles = More androgen receptors.