Trens impact on metabolism/TDEE

[Performance Based]

Unfortunately, devices such as yours for estimating energy expenditure are universally and notoriously unreliable. Androgen/AAS does not increase RMR/BMR. Stronger by Science wrote on the topic of wearables and energy expenditure, unreliability: https://www.strongerbyscience.com/research-spotlight-wearables/

Agreed 100%

I don’t take it as concrete evidence - however a baseline to slide off of vs. the arbitrary and old school formula.

I would counter that with a question however - there may be no direct impact to resting metabolic rate however it (from my own experiences) seem to increase energy demands under load quite substantially.

Have you seen any data that would shed some light on increased nutrient uptake while utilizing anabolics?

 

[Type-IIx]

Agreed 100%

I don’t take it as concrete evidence - however a baseline to slide off of vs. the arbitrary and old school formula.

I would counter that with a question however - there may be no direct impact to resting metabolic rate however it (from my own experiences) seem to increase energy demands under load quite substantially.

Have you seen any data that would shed some light on increased nutrient uptake while utilizing anabolics?

Sure, but it gets technical (and I get flamed on this board for this because eInStEiN eXpLaInS tHiNgS sImPlY [yet the complainants can never identify and explain a single concept that Einstein put into terms they could understand]).

PPARγ & C/EBPα expression is downregulated in fat cells by androgen. PPARγ controls formation of new fat cells, fatty acid uptake and storage, and therefore insulin sensitivity. C/EBPα is a protein that turns on adipogenesis (formation of new fat cells).

Androgen regulates almost all the intracellular transduction pathways related to glucose and lipid metabolism (enhancing insulin sensitivity & fat cell metabolism [as described above]), leptin sensitivity of hypothalamus (p-ratio [partitioning ratio; protein deposited in FFM tissues relative to energy intake and, conversely, protein lost from FFM tissues relative to energy deficit] is a function of insulin & leptin sensitivity), fat cell metabolism (as mentioned above, androgen decreases fat mass by decreasing lipid incorporation into fat cells, commitment of preadipocytes to a myogenic rather than adipogenic lineage, & lipolysis), & mitochondrial function.

I suppose my concern with these wearable devices is that if even EAT (formal exercise) expenditures are noise (they certainly are), then their estimates of BMR/RMR (that in practice require the use of deuterium [doubly-labeled water] & direct calorimetry methods) must be... even MORE noisy.

 

[Performance Based]

@Type-IIx Always lay it on deep - going to have to read this at home on my PC and break out my google machine.

Cheers mate,

 

[Itsdaboii]

Rather than increasing TDEE (a function of RMR, NEAT [e.g., fidgeting], EAT [formal exercise], and TEF [thermic effect of feeding, energy consumed by digestion, etc.]), Tren's effects on fat loss are multifactoral. Tren, and androgen (synonym: AAS) generally, increase skeletal muscle and decrease fat mass; and this decrease in fat mass is not explained merely by the increased metabolic cost of skeletal muscle tissue (synthesis and/or maintenance); it is substantially greater.

Tren causes fat loss by:
* antiadipogenic effects (committment of preadipocytes to a myogenic [muscle tissue] rather than an adipogenic [fat cell] lineage)... envision fat synthesis as a constant process of churn, with turnover of fat cells, with the balance between anabolic processes (lipogenesis) vs. catabolic processes (fat oxidation) constantly in flux
* reducing the quantity of fatty acid incorporation into triglyceride in adipocytes (reduced lipid accumulation; storage of fat within fat cells)
* lipolysis (via the catalytic subunit of cAMP or by ↑β-adrenoreceptor number in adipocytes)

These mechanisms reduce fat mass without reliance on increasing energy expenditure.

I know: "there is no fat loss without a negative calorie balance," they said. Well actually, with drugs, there can be (and routinely, is). This is because hormones dictate to a great extent the abundance of anabolic vs catabolic processes (recall, e.g., lipogenesis vs. fat oxidation & the constant flux of various metabolic processes above).

Newton's law of thermodynamics applies to weight or body mass changes; at a constant bodyweight (energy balance), there can be recomp (this is due to effects on the so-called p-ratio; or partitioning) via these processes.

Do these effects increase with dosage? Like in a contest prep... could you just increase the tren dosage instead of dropping cals and get leaner lol (very simply put)?

 

[Type-IIx]

Do these effects increase with dosage? Like in a contest prep... could you just increase the tren dosage instead of dropping cals and get leaner lol (very simply put)?

It's potency of compound * dose-dependent to an extent but AAS clearly don't get you RIPT in an excessive energy surplus (nothing does, to state the obvious). Somewhere around energy balance (weight stability) or ~200 kcal/d surplus is probably, intuitively, where you want to be to see the recomp effects of, e.g., 350 mg trenbolone/wk (a high dose of a potent drug).

 

[rippedyearround]

Agreed 100%

I don’t take it as concrete evidence - however a baseline to slide off of vs. the arbitrary and old school formula.

I would counter that with a question however - there may be no direct impact to resting metabolic rate however it (from my own experiences) seem to increase energy demands under load quite substantially.

Have you seen any data that would shed some light on increased nutrient uptake while utilizing anabolics?

So the idea that more intense muscle contractions would increase energy expenditure?

 

[Performance Based]

So the idea that more intense muscle contractions would increase energy expenditure?

Afternoon mate:

Multi-faceted - long slow distance runs requiring substantially more energy and micronutrients. IE consuming 10-12 energy gels on a 15 mile run vs. 4. Substantial changes in needs.

Sodium needs also increase dramatically from 5,500-7,500mg per day to 9,500+.

On metabolic conditioning days I can train for 2.5-3 hours before I start to feel hypoglycemic on higher dosages on androgens maybe 90 minutes and that’s pushing it.

Can usually do a 20 mile ruck with minimal nutritional preparation, I’ve tried multiple times on 1.5 grams or more. I have to carefully prepare pre and intra nutrition when so.

The “more intense muscle contractions” assuming we are talking more in the realm of power days. In all sincerity these days seem to be impacted the least and have the lowest caloric needs.

Sorry typing on my phone - if something is all over the place I blame my thumbs.

 

[rippedyearround]

Afternoon mate:

Multi-faceted - long slow distance runs requiring substantially more energy and micronutrients. IE consuming 10-12 energy gels on a 15 mile run vs. 4. Substantial changes in needs.

Sodium needs also increase dramatically from 5,500-7,500mg per day to 9,500+.

On metabolic conditioning days I can train for 2.5-3 hours before I start to feel hypoglycemic on higher dosages on androgens maybe 90 minutes and that’s pushing it.

Can usually do a 20 mile ruck with minimal nutritional preparation, I’ve tried multiple times on 1.5 grams or more. I have to carefully prepare pre and intra nutrition when so.

The “more intense muscle contractions” assuming we are talking more in the realm of power days. In all sincerity these days seem to be impacted the least and have the lowest caloric needs.

Sorry typing on my phone - if something is all over the place I blame my thumbs.

Super, super interesting.

 

[Sully1234]

Agreed 100%

I don’t take it as concrete evidence - however a baseline to slide off of vs. the arbitrary and old school formula.

I would counter that with a question however - there may be no direct impact to resting metabolic rate however it (from my own experiences) seem to increase energy demands under load quite substantially.

Have you seen any data that would shed some light on increased nutrient uptake while utilizing anabolics?

Those numbers you posted, were those what your device was telling you was your resting metabolism while on those compounds? Or was it how many calories you were burning per day while on those compounds and training 3x a day?

 

[Performance Based]

Those numbers you posted, were those what your device was telling you was your resting metabolism while on those compounds? Or was it how many calories you were burning per day while on those compounds and training 3x a day?

Afternoon mate - there are various devices, @Type-IIx could 100% illustrate the differences better than I can.

Measures your basal metabolic rate which is heavily influenced by training of course.

General rule of thumb with them is 24-36 hours of inactivity before testing. They essentially measure the bad exchange between inhale and exhale and through some form of witchcraft come to the conclusion that you burn X number of calories.

They aren’t perfect, far from it, but they offer a broad stroke of guidance.

Activity levels and compounds impact my scoring on the basal.