TRT gurus promoting High E2

[Black Beard]

He made that claim, yes. But it's hard to reconcile with basic physiology. Tissues are supplied with blood. Most of aromatase is located in tissues rather than the blood. Hence, the serum E2 levels are a result of tissue E2 levels. If you observe a decrease in serum E2 levels, this logically implies an (almost perfectly proportional) decrease in tissue E2 levels. At least in those whose gonadal Estrogen production is shut down.

Your idea that an AI could lower serum E2 levels while keeping tissue E2 levels almost unchanged is so ridiculous that it almost defies belief. Why do you think AIs are used in postmenopausal women with breast cancer? If, in fact, AIs didn't reliably lower tissue (here, the breast) E2 levels? (and yes, breast and tumor tissue do contain lots of aromatase: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1954167)

Also, your last sentence is a complete non sequitur.

If left to their own devices, medical practitioners come up with the wackiest shit, it's like they never went to med school. That's why we have PhDs write medical guidelines for them to follow.

This is the exact reason why AIs are poor treatment for gyno but SERMs are very effective. They block Estradiol/Estrogen at the tissue level. You can take a ton of arimidex but intracellular/tissue Estradiol levels can still be high enough to sustain breast tissue.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

This is the exact reason why AIs are poor treatment for gyno but SERMs are very effective. They block Estradiol/Estrogen at the tissue level. You can take a ton of arimidex but intracellular/tissue Estradiol levels can still be high enough to sustain breast tissue.

No, that is still bullshit.

 

[LATS]

So essentially what is being said is that a compound like nolvadex is better during a cycle than a AI.. ? and to only add a AI if symptoms persist beyond the serm. I do think that a small dose of nolva at 10mgs a day is beneficial. But we also have to watch a serm like nolva based on its half life being exceptionally long.. so there would be a accumulative effect one should watch for later in the cycle. I know even 10mgs of nolva gave me aweful brain fog a few weeks in.. went to a eod schedule and felt much better

 

[chopsuey]

I find it kind of funny everyone worries about gyno when it comes to this topic, maybe because I've never had that issue but really who gives a fuck about gyno, worst case scenario its a quick operation to take care of it and then you never have to worry about it again or use an AI/serm if it actually does happen, more worried about long term cardiovascular health and everyday well being/libido etc.

 

[LATS]

I find it kind of funny everyone worries about gyno when it comes to this topic, maybe because I've never had that issue but really who gives a fuck about gyno, worst case scenario its a quick operation to take care of it and then you never have to worry about it again or use an AI/serm if it actually does happen, more worried about long term cardiovascular health and everyday well being/libido etc.

Exactly.. I'm not too concerned about gyno mysrlf.. but I am concerned about overall health in controlling estrogen.. but it does get confusing as hell even after all these years..
One group believes in serms a have research to back it up.. the other group believes in AI. And have the cred to back it up.
The only real way yo avoid it is to keep test at low level trt use and add in other compounds during cycle. Test is a pain in the ass

 

[supermofo]

For my mental health... keeping my estro around 30 with small .125mg-.25mg 2-3Xwk doses of anastrozole or letro, if needed (noticed no difference between the 2 if dosed the same..)no matter what I was doing always made me feel best mentally, including my sex drive, lipids not too bad (HDL 40ish unless using an oral)... If my estro ever gets much over 40, I begin to show signs of depression, low mood, and overly sensitive emotionally. Which for me clouds my judgement and makes me personally feel awful. When my esto is elevated, I tend to have that more in love/deeper connection feeling with the wife, which is great but do not like the other negative feelings nor do I feel like myself at all. Any SERM always gave me depression after a short time, whether it was, ralox, tamox, and especially clomid… My chemistry is my own but others that I have spoken with about this topic have a lot of times said, "now that you mention it".... I'm sure there is so much more involved here that any of us or anyone really are able to know for certain, without question, that are possible factors in this balancing act. For example having just the right amount of free T, estro, shbg, dopamine, serotonin, noradrenalin, dhea, progesterone, etc., and really anything else that can be affected by playing with our hormones. It would be awesome if there was a one size fits all, but there just isn't...

When I ignorantly suppressed my estro into the single digits a few times long ago, it always made my joints ache, was more prone to tendonitis/inflammation, low libido, bad mood, tired but restless, shitty single digit HDL, and other things I'm not recalling at the moment. I was leaner and my muscles were rock hard to the touch but felt like shit and was obviously not healthy cardiovascular wise.

I appreciate everyone sharing their personal knowledge and experiences with all of this as it gives us some options to try that maybe is a better fit. Maybe some is a horrible option for some of us, but at least it something we can try if not currently in the best place hormonal balance wise.

 

[buck]

I agree that the A/E ratio is important. When Androgen levels are a multiple of normal (i.e. during a full-blown steroid cycle), then Estrogen levels can, and probably should, also be above the normal range. I would also agree that if someone is very sensitive to E2 sides (for example due to pre-existing gyno), then SERM use for the duration of a cycle would make more sense than having to deal with an out of whack A/E ratio and its negative effects on lipids and performance. However, if, for example, someone with an E2 level of 300 during a blast suffers from high E2 sides, then AI use that lowers it up to, say, 120, would be my first choice. If you'd have to lower E2 levels even further than that to get rid of the sides, then a SERM could make sense.

But for the case of true TRT, I still think that anything outside the normal range for E2 is very hard to justify from a health perspective.

And possibly not even the high end of the "normal" range. https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2010/5/why-estrogen-balance-is-critical-to-aging-men

So, in your opinion, what would be the best estrogen level to aim for when running true TRT doses for both cardiovascular health and muscle gains?

In the middle of the normal range appears to be the healthiest for men on true TRT from my reading.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

So essentially what is being said is that a compound like nolvadex is better during a cycle than a AI.. ? and to only add a AI if symptoms persist beyond the serm. I do think that a small dose of nolva at 10mgs a day is beneficial. But we also have to watch a serm like nolva based on its half life being exceptionally long.. so there would be a accumulative effect one should watch for later in the cycle. I know even 10mgs of nolva gave me aweful brain fog a few weeks in.. went to a eod schedule and felt much better

I have similar experience. I had a cycle with gyno flare up and used nolva 10mg/day for a few weeks. It got under control with 3-4 days and I should have tapered the novladex down. I eventually did to just take nolva 10mg 2x/week and felt fine on that dosage with zero gyno flare up. I wonder if I had just run it at that level as a preventative it would have been fine, with no need for everyday dosing?

I intend to run ralox as a preventative soon here in a similar way. Micro-dose EOD.

 

[j2048b]

i was advised against using a SERM IF uve had any previous dvt's or any other blood clots...i had a dvt a few yrs ago...

 

[supermofo]

i was advised against using a SERM IF uve had any previous dvt's or any other blood clots...i had a dvt a few yrs ago...

SERMS, according to the inserts that I've read, can unfortunately increase the chance of developing blood clots.

 

[Black Beard]

No, that is still bullshit.

Angry guy Jeff. I just agreed with you but you're still raw from the last few times i made you look a fool. I would not expect a juicehead like yourself to understand intracrine steroid metabolism, it's okay.

 

[Crazy_jay]

This is the exact reason why AIs are poor treatment for gyno but SERMs are very effective. They block Estradiol/Estrogen at the tissue level. You can take a ton of arimidex but intracellular/tissue Estradiol levels can still be high enough to sustain breast tissue.

Along with gyno, is it possible to show other symptoms of high estrogen even with low blood plasma levels of estradiol? I seem to have to keep my estradiol really low to feel good or at least decent. I've done a lot of trial and error when it comes to ai dosing and I tend to feel best in the low teens or single digits estradiol. Or is it possible to just be that sensitive to estradiol?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Angry guy Jeff. I just agreed with you but you're still raw from the last few times i made you look a fool. I would not expect a juicehead like yourself to understand intracrine steroid metabolism, it's okay.

This fucking guy. You literally said that "AIs are poor treatment for gyno but SERMs are very effective". You cannot possibly be a doctor. Otherwise you would know that AIs are more effective than SERMs in treating breast cancer in postmenopausal women (i.e. those women whose ovaries are toast). The implications for HPTA-suppressed males should be obvious even to a retard like yourself.

AIs are a type of medicine that block estrogen from being produced in postmenopausal women. Examples of these medications include anastrozole (brand name: Arimidex), letrozole (brand name: Femara), and exemestane (brand name: Aromasin).
Studies comparing the effects of tamoxifen with those of AIs as a primary treatment when taken for five years find that AIs are superior. In addition, studies show that for women who have been on tamoxifen for two or three years, there is also a benefit of switching to an AI. Finally, for women who have completed a five-year course of tamoxifen, there are benefits to taking an AI as compared with stopping all treatment.

UpToDate

www.uptodate.com

So you might have agreed with me, but for the wrong reasons. Also very nice that you heard about intracrinology, though you might want to go back and read about how exactly that works. Reading comprehension does not seem to be your strength though, so here a pretty picture for you that visualizes intracrine networks in ovarian tissue. Here's a pointer for you: Note the arrows between A4 and E1, and between T and E2. Those arrows are labelled 'cyp19a1'. Now rub your 2 brain cells together and think very hard about what that means. If you can't figure it out, you should give up your medical license.

 

[Bio]

Black Beard and MyNameIsJeff, enough of the name calling. I enjoy the debate. I understand one or both of you being frustrated but debate it using the facts. Thanks!

 

[HammerofThor6699]

Agreed! Keep it coming, most of the info ive been finding on estrogen in searches is from 2012 or way outdated, like the first 3 pages of a search result, and everyone is just saying "take a gram(exaggeration) of letro a week lol

This is probably the best thread on PM at the moment. TONS of new and relevant info for everyone.

 

[bad rad]

So essentially what is being said is that a compound like nolvadex is better during a cycle than a AI.. ? and to only add a AI if symptoms persist beyond the serm. I do think that a small dose of nolva at 10mgs a day is beneficial. But we also have to watch a serm like nolva based on its half life being exceptionally long.. so there would be a accumulative effect one should watch for later in the cycle. I know even 10mgs of nolva gave me aweful brain fog a few weeks in.. went to a eod schedule and felt much better

There are tamoxifen studies showing 5mg daily is as effective as 10mg daily with substantially less side effects.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Pretty interesting discussion with Matt Jensen about Estrogen control while on cycle. He states that for 1,000mg of Test, his guys typically use 25mg Exemestane or 1mg Arimidex every day, but that he adjusts that dose based on blood work and the presence of Estrogenic side effects. This seems like a lot of AI. Indeed, a minute later he says that on 1,000mg of test, he'd use 20 mg of Exemestane every other day, and then see how the blood work looks and to adjust the dosage. That seems more reasonable. He targets an E2 level of 60-80 during off season, 40-20 during prep, and basically 0 the last weeks pre-contest. You can argue that the E2 target levels ought to be a bit higher, but otherwise his approach favoring AIs and then dialing in the dosage with blood work is very similar to what I advocated in this thread. But again, this only works with frequent blood work so that you can dial the AI dose in. For the average meathead, SERMs might be the better choice.

 

[Black Beard]

This fucking guy. You literally said that "AIs are poor treatment for gyno but SERMs are very effective". You cannot possibly be a doctor. Otherwise you would know that AIs are more effective than SERMs in treating breast cancer in postmenopausal women (i.e. those women whose ovaries are toast). The implications for HPTA-suppressed males should be obvious even to a retard like yourself.

UpToDate

www.uptodate.com

So you might have agreed with me, but for the wrong reasons. Also very nice that you heard about intracrinology, though you might want to go back and read about how exactly that works. Reading comprehension does not seem to be your strength though, so here a pretty picture for you that visualizes intracrine networks in ovarian tissue. Here's a pointer for you: Note the arrows between A4 and E1, and between T and E2. Those arrows are labelled 'cyp19a1'. Now rub your 2 brain cells together and think very hard about what that means. If you can't figure it out, you should give up your medical license.

Did i say breast cancer? I said gynecomastia. I'm not here to debate you. Everybody knows SERMs work on gyno and AI rarely does. I'm only explaining how this happens.

.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

@MyNameIsJeff , you think for the average athlete that is not necessarily trying to be AS shredded/ripped to the bone as possible, that SERMs as a preventative measure low dose are a better choice than AIs? Sounds like the Jansen guy is dialing in estrogen lower than may be COMFORTABLE for purposes of drying out his bodybuilders?

For sake of discussion, lets say this average athlete never uses 1+ gram/week but hovers around 500-750mg/week during blasts and cruises on TRT. This guy should just be hitting nolva 2-3x/week during blasts you think and leave the AIs out?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Did i say breast cancer? I said gynecomastia. I'm not here to debate you. Everybody knows SERMs work on gyno and AI rarely does. I'm only explaining how this happens.

.

Wow. Apparently I do have to explain to you the very obvious implications. In ER-positive breast cancer, the tumor tissue grows in response to the presence of Estrogens. The empirical fact that AIs stop this tumor growth proves that AIs lower not just the serum levels of E2, but also tissue levels. This is the empirical evidence.
Then there is also the theoretical evidence. We KNOW by means of examination that estrogen synthesis within peripheral tissues is COMPLETELY dependent on aromatase (cyp19a1 in the graph I posted earlier), and this logically implies that it is impossible that E2 levels continue to be high in breast tissue when using AIs. In fact, if AI use lowers serum E2 levels by, say, 50%, then we know that tissue levels must decline by at least that amount, since E2 production in the former is not 100% dependent on aromatase, while the latter is.

So yes, AIs are effective in combating gyno, there is absolutely ZERO room for doubt or discussion. And frankly I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HAVING TO EXPLAIN THIS OBVIOUS SHIT OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO A SUPPOSED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL. I am not gonna waste any more time on you, if you wanna continue to spread misinformation, that's no longer my concern.