TRT gurus promoting High E2

[thebigbus]

As the biggest proponent of this, I'll chime in. Yes, i'm in that group. yes, i'm a physician.

i'm not going to type out the things i type daily to people who join the group, as it gets a bit tiresome.
#1, we aren't advocating for "high estrogen". I do not advocate men need to take estradiol when they're on testosterone.

The science is now quite clear, however, that serum e2 levels, in MEN (and postmenopausal women) are not driving tissue action.

When a man is eugonadal, about 15% of estradiol is made from the testes. When on androgens, this is suppressed, and all estradiol is made via aromatization in target tissues.

This is a paracrine/autocrine action. These levels can be HUNDREDS fold greater than serum levels.

The body aromatizes perfectly, in 99.9% of men, for a reason - to provide the target tissues with e2 that they need.

When you chase the serum e2, you're doing NOTHING beneficial for yourself.

This all becomes MUCH more important when men start taking anabolics, which interfere with aromatization and lower peripheral conversion, leading to massive health issues.

There's a reason Alex Kikel is adding estradiol to his clients' protocols. He's light years ahead of most coaches with this. I don't think he probably even knows about these paracrine actions of estradiol, but he's still doing a great service to his guys.

The same can be said of DHT, by the way. 5 AR is everywhere, and converts T to DHT in differing amounts, based on the needs of the tissue. Block it everywhere, and you massively impair function and health.

ALSO, as T rises, e2 and DHT plateau. Aromatase and 5 AR become saturated, leading to HIGHER T:E and T: DHT ratios. This can be a problem for the body.

And before anyone chimes in about "water retention", that is a known issue from ANDROGENS acting in the kidney. Estradiol has a lower role to play in water retention, acting likely via ADH set point. Both play a role.

The Key to all this is the paracrine/autocrine action of e2. The serum level is meaningless. It is just a muddy reflection of what is going on in the tissues.

There is so much myth around estradiol and it's painful, and it's causing a LOT of harm, in both the TRT world and the BB world.

Add in things like nandrolone, or boldenone, which not only slightly block aromatization, but also convert to NON bioidentical estrogens, and you're in for health issues if done long enough.

Estradiol is just as important as T, in men. It does not cause fat gain. it does not lead to moodiness.

And if someone screams "gyno!" - well they obviously haven't researched the multifactorial nature of gyno.

My guys on TRT don't get it if they've never had it. and I don't control estradiol. I won't. If gyno flares up, a short term course of a SERM is fine. AI? no way.

*let the flames commence*

 

[Swifto]

As the biggest proponent of this, I'll chime in. Yes, i'm in that group. yes, i'm a physician.

i'm not going to type out the things i type daily to people who join the group, as it gets a bit tiresome.
#1, we aren't advocating for "high estrogen". I do not advocate men need to take estradiol when they're on testosterone.

The science is now quite clear, however, that serum e2 levels, in MEN (and postmenopausal women) are not driving tissue action.

When a man is eugonadal, about 15% of estradiol is made from the testes. When on androgens, this is suppressed, and all estradiol is made via aromatization in target tissues.

This is a paracrine/autocrine action. These levels can be HUNDREDS fold greater than serum levels.

The body aromatizes perfectly, in 99.9% of men, for a reason - to provide the target tissues with e2 that they need.

When you chase the serum e2, you're doing NOTHING beneficial for yourself.

This all becomes MUCH more important when men start taking anabolics, which interfere with aromatization and lower peripheral conversion, leading to massive health issues.

There's a reason Alex Kikel is adding estradiol to his clients' protocols. He's light years ahead of most coaches with this. I don't think he probably even knows about these paracrine actions of estradiol, but he's still doing a great service to his guys.

The same can be said of DHT, by the way. 5 AR is everywhere, and converts T to DHT in differing amounts, based on the needs of the tissue. Block it everywhere, and you massively impair function and health.

ALSO, as T rises, e2 and DHT plateau. Aromatase and 5 AR become saturated, leading to HIGHER T:E and T: DHT ratios. This can be a problem for the body.

And before anyone chimes in about "water retention", that is a known issue from ANDROGENS acting in the kidney. Estradiol has a lower role to play in water retention, acting likely via ADH set point. Both play a role.

The Key to all this is the paracrine/autocrine action of e2. The serum level is meaningless. It is just a muddy reflection of what is going on in the tissues.

There is so much myth around estradiol and it's painful, and it's causing a LOT of harm, in both the TRT world and the BB world.

Add in things like nandrolone, or boldenone, which not only slightly block aromatization, but also convert to NON bioidentical estrogens, and you're in for health issues if done long enough.

Estradiol is just as important as T, in men. It does not cause fat gain. it does not lead to moodiness.

And if someone screams "gyno!" - well they obviously haven't researched the multifactorial nature of gyno.

My guys on TRT don't get it if they've never had it. and I don't control estradiol. I won't. If gyno flares up, a short term course of a SERM is fine. AI? no way.

*let the flames commence*

Where have you read this?

The "aromatasation" of Nandrolone is pretty complex process. But I wouldn't go as far as saying it "slightly blocks aromatisation".

This study, details that process stating, "Nandrolone is a naturally occurring steroid that appears as an intermediate in the conversion of testosterone to estradiol by the aromatase enzyme601; however, it is not normally present in the human bloodstream. The aromatase enzyme complex undertakes two successive hydroxylations on the angular C19 methyl group of testosterone followed by a cleavage of the C10-C19 bond to release formic acid and aromatize the A ring.602 Nandrolone represents a penultimate step of the aromatization reaction while it is bound to the enzyme complex, including the C19 methyl group excised but a still nonaromatic A ring. Paradoxically, despite being an intermediate in the aromatization reaction, after parenteral administration nandrolone is virtually not aromatized'.

 

[Dog-Slime]

may not be everyone's favorite info source

he didn't make this for me but if he says hes gotten people asking questions about the neuro-protection/genesis AAS can offer then I WAS one of the people...

 

[buck]

Depending on what health issues concern a person the most. High E2 levels in men have been associated with with increased stroke and an earlier death. But it should be studied more.

How To Chart Optimal Male Estrogen Levels - Life Extension

Men with even slightly elevated estrogen levels doubled their risk of stroke and had far higher incidences of coronary artery disease.

www.lifeextension.com

Dangers of Excess Estrogen in the Aging Male - Life Extension

Excess estrogen in men is associated with increased risks of heart attack, stroke, and prostate disease. Since it is so easy for men to correct estrogen overload, it makes sense to test for it.

www.lifeextension.com

 

[MikeS]

On a general 1g dose (Test+EQ) myE2 is 5.7 (normal range 10-42)
I use Clomid 50mg 2/3x wk to hopefully maintain some LH stimulation for the testicles to no shut off completely.
Also maybe 50mg proviron 4x wk. Im always extremely lean without restricting carbs, and high protein.
With that very low E2 level Id never touch an AI, I feel they should be used very minimally, use SERMs instead

 

[thebigbus]

Where have you read this?

The "aromatasation" of Nandrolone is pretty complex process. But I wouldn't go as far as saying it "slightly blocks aromatisation".

This study, details that process stating, "Nandrolone is a naturally occurring steroid that appears as an intermediate in the conversion of testosterone to estradiol by the aromatase enzyme601; however, it is not normally present in the human bloodstream. The aromatase enzyme complex undertakes two successive hydroxylations on the angular C19 methyl group of testosterone followed by a cleavage of the C10-C19 bond to release formic acid and aromatize the A ring.602 Nandrolone represents a penultimate step of the aromatization reaction while it is bound to the enzyme complex, including the C19 methyl group excised but a still nonaromatic A ring. Paradoxically, despite being an intermediate in the aromatization reaction, after parenteral administration nandrolone is virtually not aromatized'.

Yep, nandrolone is likely naturally formed as a "byproduct" in the aromatization process..


these studies still mention nandrolone BINDING to aromatase (competitively) vs testosterone (DHT also binds aromatase, as we know). Boldenone as well. any and all of these steroids can bind aromatase and act as AI's, in a sense. it's something that MUST be taken into consideration.

this likely explains why many men have tanked e2 (sensitive test), when they're on nandrolone and boldenone, even when on test in combination.

 

[deadliftsquates]

I tried truly micro-dosing aromasin (exemestane) at 3mg and 2mg EOD and even that ended up crashing my estrogen after a few months. I think there's no real safe way to take aromasin long-term for me at least. Low estrogen sucks so bad, drains your energy, lowers your sex drive, kills your gains, just generally takes away the benefits of having high test.

Its tough because I personally get estrogen sides if I let my test dose increase without an AI. Then I have to add in nolvadex if I want to continue with the test dose at 300-400mg/week. And that brings with it some negatives. It sucks because when you feel dialed in on 400mg/week test - there's no better feeling. You feel like you can do anything lol, and the progressive overload on your exercises for sure comes with that feeling. But, I chalk up my situation to bad genetics and that I'm not meant to sustain high doses of drugs like pro bodybuilders are. Oh well. I stick to HRT and dry AAS like primo and I'm fine.

But you shouldn't need it long term bro. It should only be run when running higher doses and ran moderately. And I wouldn't think you would be staying on high test for months on end. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[thebigbus]

Depending on what health issues concern a person the most. High E2 levels in men have been associated with with increased stroke and an earlier death. But it should be studied more.

How To Chart Optimal Male Estrogen Levels - Life Extension

Men with even slightly elevated estrogen levels doubled their risk of stroke and had far higher incidences of coronary artery disease.

www.lifeextension.com

Dangers of Excess Estrogen in the Aging Male - Life Extension

Excess estrogen in men is associated with increased risks of heart attack, stroke, and prostate disease. Since it is so easy for men to correct estrogen overload, it makes sense to test for it.

www.lifeextension.com

These are high "estrogen" levels in unhealthy men with low T.

they are association studies. Just like we see low SHBG in diabetics. we don't assume low SHBG causes diabetes. It's simply a reflection of poor health.

Believe it or not, men with low T have LOW e2 (true estradiol), however they can have elevated total estrogens (esp liver disease). E comes from T.

There was an excellent paper reviewing this in obese men with DM2, where they specifically wanted to see if these obese guys truly had "high estrogen"....guess what, they didn't They then mentioned in their paper why older studies had shown it to be the case, and they explained that the older studies had simply been using the wrong assay, and likely were measuring total estrogens.

 

[method2madness]

What "Gurus" , when you have fucktards like Ameen Alai calling themselves "Guru" it hard to take that word seriously.
I can't see how staying outside the natural normal range would be beneficial in anyway

Anyone that calls themselve a guru is likely the wrong person to follow.

 

[Stewie]

Binding and activation (receptor dimerization) are two different complexes.

A ligand can bind to the cytoplasm, yet if there's noncoding for whatever reason even though the hormone is "bound" to the cell surface, different issues can occur that would
impede it's "activation" i.e., protein misfolding, mofits (zinc fingers) lacking sufficient cysteines and histidines (two pairs each) that are the gatekeepers for transcriptional activation of nuclear receptor domain. Testosterone can "bind" to either the progesterone and estrogen receptor, yet it doesn't activate either receptor.

All to often individuals confuse binding with conformational changes that activate a specific receptor.

 

[buck]

These are high "estrogen" levels in unhealthy men with low T.

they are association studies. Just like we see low SHBG in diabetics. we don't assume low SHBG causes diabetes. It's simply a reflection of poor health.

Believe it or not, men with low T have LOW e2 (true estradiol), however they can have elevated total estrogens (esp liver disease). E comes from T.

There was an excellent paper reviewing this in obese men with DM2, where they specifically wanted to see if these obese guys truly had "high estrogen"....guess what, they didn't They then mentioned in their paper why older studies had shown it to be the case, and they explained that the older studies had simply been using the wrong assay, and likely were measuring total estrogens.

That is why I would like to see more studies. One or 2 small studies really don't mean much. The study above is the high normal range. But the majority of studies I have seen point to high normal or above is generally unhealthy. People all have then own agenda. I would like to see a links to a number of studies to get a general consensus. Right now I just looked at my tests from yesterday and my T is in 800 range with E2 0f 44 with the top or the range is 44. And libido is down enthusiasm etc. is down. But feeling is not always a stable way of judging something.

 

[Zarati]

I don't care about numbers, but when I have physical E2 symptoms, it's hard for me to not ignore them, how come I don't get them on a lower dose? That tells me High E2 is real. I had high e2 for a year and symptoms never went away, as soon as I dropped my dose by 40%, I no longer had e2 symptoms

 

[fitzchivalry]

I don't care about numbers, but when I have physical E2 symptoms, it's hard for me to not ignore them, how come I don't get them on a lower dose? That tells me High E2 is real. I had high e2 for a year and symptoms never went away, as soon as I dropped my dose by 40%, I no longer had e2 symptoms

Everyone has a point where they may feel better at a certain dose and going above that dose can cause issues/not feel as optimal. I wouldn't point to it as being specifically from estrogen, though. Also a lot of things come in to play if speaking of TRT (injection frequency, people using hcg, etc.)

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

Wow, all of these learned individuals posting so many learned articles. Brain cannot compute.

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

At least my Avatar is kickass.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

This is probably the best thread on PM at the moment. TONS of new and relevant info for everyone.

 

[brutus69]

what if, instead of norma trt dose ranges, you're on a cycle where your test trough is 2500 . same day e2 is 80.
that ratio is the same as a normal range 600t, 20e2. does it matter then if your e2 is way off the chart high if you arent having overt symptoms like gyno? at that point WOULD taking an ai be advised, would nolva be preferable?
and if no symptoms presented, would it matter at all if e2 was that high, assuming this is a cycle lasting 12-16 weeks only.

 

[muscle96ss]

This is why I love this board!!! We have so many intelligent members that have an understanding on a level that just blows my mind!!!!

 

[Crazy_jay]

what if, instead of norma trt dose ranges, you're on a cycle where your test trough is 2500 . same day e2 is 80.
that ratio is the same as a normal range 600t, 20e2. does it matter then if your e2 is way off the chart high if you arent having overt symptoms like gyno? at that point WOULD taking an ai be advised, would nolva be preferable?
and if no symptoms presented, would it matter at all if e2 was that high, assuming this is a cycle lasting 12-16 weeks only.

In my case, yes it matters. When I was on blast, 500mg test/week, not sure where my test levels were but estradiol sensitive was 97. I was off an ai for 5 weeks. Within one week stopping ai, I could feel the estrogen rising. Puffy eyes, cramping muscles, intense muscle pumps (those I actually like), lack of libido, no motivation, constantly tired, never felt awake, bloating, water retention, heavier breathing, increased sweating. Maybe some minor tingling in my nipples, nothing major. I have never had those problems while on an ai, and solved them with an ai. Yes I've taken too much ai and brought my estradiol too low. There is a balance that has to be found. Now I know that's blasting and this thread is talking about trt. I suppose there is possibly the idea of finding a low enough t dose that estradiol doesnt raise to high and I'm trying even lower dose on longer ester test but I know on 150mg test cyp/week split dose, I still need an ai or I will feel like shit and my total t 3 days post pin was only mid 700s.

 

[MethodAir]

This right here. More and more are becoming knowledgeable on this matter.

Unless, there is some sort of groundbreaking study in regards to estrogen, everything points to not controlling

And again, kudos to @thebigbus for sharing this new information.