Ultimate discussion - your thoughts on the cause of difference in BB from 1995-2005 t

[hilly2008]

I agree. I wasn't blaming just slin for the change that would be stupid. There are 101 factors in play. I think diets are the main one. But slin and hgh definitely influence things for many people. Some bodybuilders are so insulin resistant from years of abuse it only adds to a certain look we have in our head (distended guts). Then with all the food (usually bland food void of nutrients) it only worsens things over time. This is very complex though and again I am not stating it's just due to slin and hgh. I had distention issues long before using either of those drugs for example. So I am sure many 250-300 pound bodybuilders will be exactly the same.

I have seen his protocols as well. 80-100iu insulin per day pre and post workout with 2 daily sessions. But that is just one way to use insulin and is extremely effective because they are using rapid acting slin when they are training/active and they are using high volume training. Many people don't use insulin that way. Others use 100iu lantus and take big shots of hgh through the day for example and eat around the clock whilst training 1 hour per day. A bit like Milos's loading creatine (could be 80g per day) in most of his peak weeks. It goes against the standard results and side effects of what many other people notice. Just like if you can take large amounts of adrol and get bigger and tigther or blow up full of water... same drug but different results/side effects depending upon other factors.

The biggest factor is the mindset these days because of the judging in open bodybuilding. If 20 years ago the judges said we want bb's to be as conditioned as possible with no distention and were strict I am sure we would have a different look. But Dorian came, then Ronnie and even when they were off with some distention they would still win. Jay Cutler had to get bigger and bigger to compete with Ronnie then he finally took over and so on. It has changed an odd year and even this one but that was just because so many of the big guys were off this year so they had to give it to Rhoden.

There are many reasons but I think the main ones are obvious and were mentioned by Jeff the other day (your opening post) and again by Little Slice above. Although I disagree people don't train as hard these days as I think they do. They are just eating differently and generally not suffering as much. All I see on IG are big pro's having burger refeeds, poptarts etc every 3 days during prep to prevent them losing fullness for example. Very few are starving themselves and suffering to get as conditioned as possible.

Great post and agreed. Especially that last post.

I do think with milos protocol the trick is all the volume with the slin. Means different partitioning of nutrients making it more effective overall.


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[1234trew]

The dosages were just as high if not higher back in the 90's. So I don't think that is it.

Gh was pharma, available, and used.

Guys ate absolutely massive amounts of calories so thats not it.

Diuretics were used often, on and off season to keep the water away for various reasons (big test dosages were used by most).

Now I think the big difference is insulin. My circle starting messing with it back in the late 90's. I am thinking 96-97 but lower dosages were used and it was cycled. Nasser had a big influence on this. 6 to 10 units was common, never saw anyone go much higher until much later.

In addition I think a huge difference is the amount of stimulants that are used now. All these pre workouts could be contributing to some of the heart issues that sure seem a lot more common now.

 

[juggy38]

The 90s guys didn’t have cell-tech and nitro-tech post workout

 

[maldorf]

The 90s guys didn’t have cell-tech and nitro-tech post workout

In the 80s we had cybergenics though! How can you account for that I ask!?

 

[lestatgear]

Since late 90s until today they push more for size and fullness than conditioning and proportion.

I don't think AAS doses have changed at all but more so insulin/GH have probably tripled if not more since early 90s

This.

 

[lestatgear]

In the 80s we had cybergenics though! How can you account for that I ask!?

LOL, I remember those kits and the ridiculous cost. At least one thing I can say is at least you don't have the ridiculous claims in advertising with supplements these days like back then. There was constantly a new "super supplement" coming out that did jack really. Some that come to mind: Smilex, Chromium Picolinate, Boron, ZMA, dibencozide, pre-digested aminos, and of course cybergenics.

 

[maldorf]

LOL, I remember those kits and the ridiculous cost. At least one thing I can say is at least you don't have the ridiculous claims in advertising with supplements these days like back then. There was constantly a new "super supplement" coming out that did jack really. Some that come to mind: Smilex, Chromium Picolinate, Boron, ZMA, dibencozide, pre-digested aminos, and of course cybergenics.

Yeah, used all of those. GNC had some bodybuilding supplements that were a group of about 5 tablets or more and they would come in individual small bags. You would rip that bag open and take all of those once a day before training. Stuff like Bull Orchic and royal jelly was in there.

 

[psychor]

Yeah, used all of those. GNC had some bodybuilding supplements that were a group of about 5 tablets or more and they would come in individual small bags. You would rip that bag open and take all of those once a day before training. Stuff like Bull Orchic and royal jelly was in there.

Let's not forget "HOT STUFF"!Lol

and of course my personal oldie but goodie that I used to help put on a whopping 20lbs my very first year of training...drumroll please..."Weider Mega Mass 2000"!

 

[lookslikesausage]

Let's not forget "HOT STUFF"!Lol

and of course my personal oldie but goodie that I used to help put on a whopping 20lbs my very first year of training...drumroll please..."Weider Mega Mass 2000"!

remember the old gnc commercials in the 90's with the Sprach Zarrathustra music playing? i even remember some commercial back in the 90's where some young guy was saying he used _____ (probably some type of gear) and they bleeped it out and he said that whatever supplement the advertisement was for gave better results and was legal. Things definitely had a more campy tongue-in-cheek nature back then, that's for sure.

 

[juggy38]

Did y’all ever use the phosphagen HP? Lol ate that stuff by the bucket loads. No idea I was paying $30 a jug for dextrose and creatine

And BLAST! Pre workout packets. I can’t even remember who made it lol

 

[1234trew]

In the 80s we had cybergenics though! How can you account for that I ask!?

My local vitamin store was actually robbed at gunpoint and all they took was the cybergenics kits. The workout that went with all those vitamins was insane. 6 days a weeks of straight drop sets.

 

[Kaladryn]

I hate to say it because I love GH, but I think it's mostly the GH that is responsible for the difference between the early 90s and today.

 

[hilly2008]

I hate to say it because I love GH, but I think it's mostly the GH that is responsible for the difference between the early 90s and today.

Is that the doses used or the quality do you feel.


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[hilly2008]

Here’s a thought.



Do you guys think it may be because a lot of size is built on higher test cycles now.


We’re as I here in the 90’s they used it seems still pretty dam high cycles but they were more anabolic based than higher test.


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[maldorf]

Here’s a thought.



Do you guys think it may be because a lot of size is built on higher test cycles now.


We’re as I here in the 90’s they used it seems still pretty dam high cycles but they were more anabolic based than higher test.


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Even anabolics were dosed lower back then. I remember using dbol back around 1987 and everyone back then was taking just 25 mg/day. 5 tabs of the Ciba Dbol. That was the peak dose too, we would pyramid up to that and then back down again. Only took 25 mg for a few weeks and then it was down to 20 mg for a week, then 15mg for a week, etc.

 

[Elvia1023]

Here’s a thought.



Do you guys think it may be because a lot of size is built on higher test cycles now.


We’re as I here in the 90’s they used it seems still pretty dam high cycles but they were more anabolic based than higher test.


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As posted earlier so many factors. But in a drug sense it's more so the hgh and insulin that goes with that test imo. Guys simply didn't use them years back and if they did in the 90's the doses were much lower. These days the competitors you refer to are pretty much all on hgh. No one knows the amount but it's safe to say it ranges from about 4iu to 50iu per day. With most of the bigger guys in the 20-40iu range. Then the insulin is easily over 50iu most days with many using crazy doses such as 200iu per day. I think they both heavily influence the way many look these days. They look like their muscles have been pumped full of air. It's a much smoother look. Obviously the ones who lift massive weights only help their look/density but the drugs still have an effect.

Even anabolics were dosed lower back then. I remember using dbol back around 1987 and everyone back then was taking just 25 mg/day. 5 tabs of the Ciba Dbol. That was the peak dose too, we would pyramid up to that and then back down again. Only took 25 mg for a few weeks and then it was down to 20 mg for a week, then 15mg for a week, etc.

It's the mentality. If you get a natural on the same diet/training and give him 25mg dbol or 40-50mg first cycle the results aren't going to be much different. Guys take too much these days though. I see it all the time. On 25mg 1st cycle they all should be putting on 20 pounds easily in a few weeks. The 40-50mg guys should put a little extra on but also get more side effects. But guys look at the 50mg users and think we only needed 20mg in my day and gear is crap now but it's not the case. I have come across about 50 people in real life put on easily over 20 pounds in 2-3 weeks on approx 25mg dbol in the last 10 years. If I used 25mg dbol I would struggle to put the same weight on now as I did as I weigh much more and have used it so many times.

Guys often state things like he should look better due to his dose. But the same logic applies. It's not like if you put a newbie on high doses he will change much more than the same guy on standard doses. Now low doses are different and obviously won't be as good. But I see it all the time and sometimes guys who dose big actually get less results. A good example are the guys who throw in 150mg adrol yes they blow up but many can't eat and whilst they still get much bigger they don't use the drug to it's full potential. Most will get the same results using 50mg and dosing a little longer and eating more consistently for example. The same for the guys on grams of test with orals who feel toxic and get severe lethargy and appetite issues. The same happens and the guys who blew up on 50mg adrol in the 90's will look at him and think he needs all that it's obviously crap gear. People also forget how unimpressive they looked back in the day as well. I done the same and when I done my 2nd cycle thought I got huge and I look back now and laugh. None of these guys ever have old pics from their magical cycles. I bet if they did they would realize those gains weren't as special as they thought. But at the time when you put on 20 pounds in 2 weeks and your bench goes up 50kg you feel different.

Guys are still adamant steroids suddenly become crap after the 90's though Many did but as it's been posted so many times on here some are still just as good as when x poster was 19 in the 90's and he run those magical adrol at 50mg per day. It's human nature and with the changing culture and people wanting everything so quick and not willing to work for it these days they do stupid things when it comes to drugs.

 

[lookslikesausage]

Even anabolics were dosed lower back then. I remember using dbol back around 1987 and everyone back then was taking just 25 mg/day. 5 tabs of the Ciba Dbol. That was the peak dose too, we would pyramid up to that and then back down again. Only took 25 mg for a few weeks and then it was down to 20 mg for a week, then 15mg for a week, etc.

you didn't add in any other compounds? If not, what was coming off of that like? If you were dosing that low coming off must've been a cakewalk, eh?

 

[maldorf]

you didn't add in any other compounds? If not, what was coming off of that like? If you were dosing that low coming off must've been a cakewalk, eh?

Yeah, it really wasn't that bad. All I took was the dbol. The pyramiding took made it easier to quit. I don't remember what the schedule was, but I basically bought one bottle of pills and when that bottle was gone so was my cycle. The first bottle I put on a lot of strength and probably a solid 15 lbs of weight after the water all came off. I did lose some gains though coming off, it wasn't perfect of course. Much much easier to come off that though than say a 12 week cycle of testosterone.

 

[lookslikesausage]

Yeah, it really wasn't that bad. All I took was the dbol. The pyramiding took made it easier to quit. I don't remember what the schedule was, but I basically bought one bottle of pills and when that bottle was gone so was my cycle. The first bottle I put on a lot of strength and probably a solid 15 lbs of weight after the water all came off. I did lose some gains though coming off, it wasn't perfect of course. Much much easier to come off that though than say a 12 week cycle of testosterone.

how much of the 15 lbs do you think you retained after all was said and done?

 

[maldorf]

how much of the 15 lbs do you think you retained after all was said and done?

Well, when you look back at gains made over the long term it probably wasn't very much. It is this way with everyone really. If guys could go on a cycle and put on 15 lbs every time then they would be gaining 30 to 45 lbs year after year. That just isn't possible. This was early on though when I was young and hadn't been lifting very long. I think I probably kept permanently about half that or as much as 10 lbs. Gains were much better early on.