Updated Test Results...Input Needed Please!!!!

[A50#]

Here's the update:

LH>2.1
Prolactin>7.2
Testosterone Total>107 ng/dl
SHBG>4 L
Free Testosterone>45
Weakly Bound Testosterone>91

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Here's the update:

LH>2.1
Prolactin>7.2
Testosterone Total>107 ng/dl
SHBG>4 L
Free Testosterone>45
Weakly Bound Testosterone>91

Sure man! LH - low but within range (8-10 would be better)
Prolactin - good
Test Total - not good... 400-800ng's but even higher is better
SHBG - impossible to tell... varies widely...
Free test - this is the scary one. That's very low. You need to get that up.
WBT - isn't this usually thrown in with free T?

You appear to have post-cycle blood readings. There are things you can do. Natural and unatural. Natural would be to do mass movements to force your body to make more testosterone. Periodically take in tribulus to boost test production...

but I would look at these:

Proviron lowers SHBG which binds with available test (which allows more free test) and dostinex lowers prolactin levels effectively. Arimidex or Nolvadex (or both) might boost your test levels. This would give you a three-fold benefit - reducing the effects of your estrogen/testosterone balance, allow more free test to bind to receptors and not aromatize or bind to SHBG, and lower prolactin would help with your sex drive and make you feel less tired (also supposedly has some test raising abilities)... and sex raises test as well. All these can be taken with little or no effect on your HPTA and coming off slowly, you might just find your body producing more or the good stuff.

Also buddy, this is all just opinion. It would be my course if I wanted to stay off gear. Good luck!

 

[Fullybuilt]

You actually don't want your LH to be high. Normal should be around 3. You would be better off if it was high, b/c that would show that your body's trying to produce test but cant. This shows that your LH is normal but your test is low, which unfortantly means it could be permanent. I got this info from my dads endocrinologist, but don't take it %100. I kinda knew more than him. Anyway HRT isnt bad at all. Very cheap(if done yourself) and gaurantee's you at max test levels

 

[Dave_19]

Good post Ouch,
A50#, I know you said you wanted to do every thing legal. I cannot comment if its working, but ZMA is so cheap its worth a shot. I would get some or b6/magnesium/zinc and get into habbit of taking it every night, it will help you sleep too.

 

[A50#]

Sure man! LH - low but within range (8-10 would be better)
Prolactin - good
Test Total - not good... 400-800ng's but even higher is better
SHBG - impossible to tell... varies widely...
Free test - this is the scary one. That's very low. You need to get that up.
WBT - isn't this usually thrown in with free T?

You appear to have post-cycle blood readings. There are things you can do. Natural and unatural. Natural would be to do mass movements to force your body to make more testosterone. Periodically take in tribulus to boost test production...

but I would look at these:

Proviron lowers SHBG which binds with available test (which allows more free test) and dostinex lowers prolactin levels effectively. Arimidex or Nolvadex (or both) might boost your test levels. This would give you a three-fold benefit - reducing the effects of your estrogen/testosterone balance, allow more free test to bind to receptors and not aromatize or bind to SHBG, and lower prolactin would help with your sex drive and make you feel less tired (also supposedly has some test raising abilities)... and sex raises test as well. All these can be taken with little or no effect on your HPTA and coming off slowly, you might just find your body producing more or the good stuff.

Also buddy, this is all just opinion. It would be my course if I wanted to stay off gear. Good luck!

What type of doses would you recommend for the Arimidex or Letrozole and Nolvadex combination? Is it ok to use both at the same time? Thanks for your advice!

 

[A50#]

Good post Ouch,
A50#, I know you said you wanted to do every thing legal. I cannot comment if its working, but ZMA is so cheap its worth a shot. I would get some or b6/magnesium/zinc and get into habbit of taking it every night, it will help you sleep too.

I will be picking up some ZMA asap for sure. Thanks for the suggestion bro.

 

[Fullybuilt]

For last result in trying to bring test levels up i'd do this:
500iu HCG everyday for 20days(with 10mg nolva everyday)
Then clomid at 100mg and nolva at 20mg for 15days
Then clomid at 50mg and nolva at 10mg for another 15days
Cabergoline at .5mg 2x per week from the start of hcg to last day of clomid/nolva

Wait 2 months after this 50day program is over and get levels tested. If your not recovered then, you can try waiting another couple months and get tested again. IF not then, then they are probably permanently down. I think this program is good, b/c your already shutdown, so hcg isnt gonna do any damage especially in 500iu doses. That will help boost your LH. Then the clomid/nolva will help keep estro down and restore test. Thats probably what im gonna do when I eventually try to recover. If you can find HMG add that as well.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

What type of doses would you recommend for the Arimidex or Letrozole and Nolvadex combination? Is it ok to use both at the same time? Thanks for your advice!

I've tried letro and it's just too harsh. Plus it can take a loooong time to reach steady levels.

I would do:

proviron: 50-150mg/day (raise free test)
a-dex: .5-1mg per day (raise test, stop aromatization)
nolvadex: 10-20mg/day (raise test, stop estrogenic sides)
cabergoline: 400-500mcg/4 days (reduce prolactin, raise test)

HCG is suppressive. You don't want to do that. If you did it, you should have done when you were on. You don't want LH lower, you want it higher... Too late now unless your boys are shrunken then 200iu/day for a month will do it.

You could stay on this for a long time and none of the above (except HCG) is suppressive. If it were me and my boys? It's what I'd be doing but I know exactly how I respond (and well) to every one of above.

Good luck man!

 

[Jmh80]

A50,
As far as legal supps, there are 2 I'd look at for improving free test. One is nettle root extract and the other is long jack.

I've tested a product that contains the nettle root - it boosted my free test by 60% (maybe more - I've forgotten the exact number).

I know where you can get it - just not sure if I can post it or not. PM me if you are interested.

 

[Dave_19]

I've tried letro and it's just too harsh. Plus it can take a loooong time to reach steady levels.

I would do:

proviron: 50-150mg/day (raise free test)
a-dex: .5-1mg per day (raise test, stop aromatization)
nolvadex: 10-20mg/day (raise test, stop estrogenic sides)
cabergoline: 400-500mcg/4 days (reduce prolactin, raise test)

HCG is suppressive. You don't want to do that. If you did it, you should have done when you were on. You don't want LH lower, you want it higher... Too late now unless your boys are shrunken then 200iu/day for a month will do it.

You could stay on this for a long time and none of the above (except HCG) is suppressive. If it were me and my boys? It's what I'd be doing but I know exactly how I respond (and well) to every one of above.

Good luck man!

when you say letro is too harsh, in what way do you mean. I keep hering mixed things I have used both adex and letero, every one always says letero is supperior to adex in most every way.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

when you say letro is too harsh, in what way do you mean. I keep hering mixed things I have used both adex and letero, every one always says letero is supperior to adex in most every way.

Dave -
"too harsh" may be a bad way too put it. Let's just say overkill. You need some circulating estrogen. Letro is so effective that it's almost too effective for our needs. If you can use it successfully, than good. It dried me up, killed my sex drive. It is VERY aggressive. It might be great if you wanted to get dry and tight for a comp but for just controlling estrogen related sides? Seems like a lot.

Personally, I would only use it to reduce existing gyno, contest prep, or to prevent gyno in individuals where all else fails. I'm not prone to gyno.

But the biggest thing of all would be the reduction in estro by 90-95%. That's enough to bring little jimmy to a halt.

I did read an article by Roberts that stated (although I didn't check the ref.) that it takes 60 days to reach steady-state plasma levels... yikes. His research seems pretty thorough...

Did it mess with you too? Or have you had good experiences with it?

 

[Dave_19]

Dave -


Did it mess with you too? Or have you had good experiences with it?

I have only used it to control onset of gyno in the past. My PCT has been some what lacking for my last few cycles. So I was going to use a combination of Letero/Nolva/HCG to try to fix my low test of 319. Its been low for years while off the gear and im 23. Im still doing research trying to find out what are the best PCT drugs for some one in my situations. So far im sticking with ZMA/tribulus until I come to a decision.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I have only used it to control onset of gyno in the past. My PCT has been some what lacking for my last few cycles. So I was going to use a combination of Letero/Nolva/HCG to try to fix my low test of 319. Its been low for years while off the gear and im 23. Im still doing research trying to find out what are the best PCT drugs for some one in my situations. So far im sticking with ZMA/tribulus until I come to a decision.

Dave,

Understand now where you're coming from but listen. 319 is low but not tragic. Sure you would like to increase that number by 75-100%. My last (if you're talking Test Total) after a cycle was 408. This was three weeks after stopping test/deca cycle. After 3 weeks PCT and then a week or so, I was able to almost double that number with clomid and a-dex alone. Also remember that HCG acts as exogenous LH. Which, like test, will drop in the presence of an outside form. Low LH will translate to low test production. So if you do use it, you should definitely use it with an SERM like nolvadex.

Do you use ZMA? If so, did it raise your test levels?

 

[A50#]

I've tried letro and it's just too harsh. Plus it can take a loooong time to reach steady levels.

I would do:

proviron: 50-150mg/day (raise free test)
a-dex: .5-1mg per day (raise test, stop aromatization)
nolvadex: 10-20mg/day (raise test, stop estrogenic sides)
cabergoline: 400-500mcg/4 days (reduce prolactin, raise test)

HCG is suppressive. You don't want to do that. If you did it, you should have done when you were on. You don't want LH lower, you want it higher... Too late now unless your boys are shrunken then 200iu/day for a month will do it.

You could stay on this for a long time and none of the above (except HCG) is suppressive. If it were me and my boys? It's what I'd be doing but I know exactly how I respond (and well) to every one of above.

Good luck man!

Hey Ouch do you think those prolactin levels are too high @ 7.2? You ever heard of B6 lowering prolactin levels? The estrogenic sides are starting to rear their ugly heads. Gyno is becoming prevalent in left side nipple. I really wanted to wait to do anything before the endo appointement but I'm not sure one can wait any longer.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Hey Ouch do you think those prolactin levels are too high @ 7.2? You ever heard of B6 lowering prolactin levels? The estrogenic sides are starting to rear their ugly heads. Gyno is becoming prevalent in left side nipple. I really wanted to wait to do anything before the endo appointement but I'm not sure one can wait any longer.

Shoot. Normal ratio of test to estro is like 50:1 - your low free test is hurting this ratio badly (i.e. you might be 10:1). Letro might be in order here for that gyno... I doubt very highly if you'll get any type of satisfation from herbal, vitamin remedies now and beside you don't have time to experiment. Stinging nettle root and folic acid, zinc, magnesium... maybe later. If you have symtoms of gyno you want to not only stop it but reverse it. Letro can reverse existing gyno because it's so damned aggressive (90-95% vs. 50% for a-dex) but at least your ratio will be in line right? You may have some libido issues until you get your natural test up but I really do think that you can recover from all of this. Even if you have to do a therapy and then revisit another session in a few months.

IBE (sponsor up top and below) has cabergoline for 50 bucks! That's a small price to pay and I'm having outstanding results with it. You can try some herbals later as your levels slowly come back because you don't want surgery.

I've never been prone to gyno but I did do a very high test cycle during which some fatty deposits were apparant on or about my nips. I upped the a-dex to 2mg a day and it all went away and so did Ouch Jr. I can get Jr. back, I don't want to ever have surgery. I have a feeling your endocinologist is just going to use HCG and Clomiphene anyway. At the same time, I hate to advise you on anything that could interfere with his treatment. So take what I'm saying as friendly advice.

He's probably not going to know why your taking cab but he'll undertand the letro. PM me and let me know how this all came about...

...and good luck! (you be a'ight)

 

[KillerStack]

Also remember that HCG acts as exogenous LH. Which, like test, will drop in the presence of an outside form. Low LH will translate to low test production. So if you do use it, you should definitely use it with an SERM like nolvadex.

I remembered something Karl Hoffman (Nandi) wrote regarding this. Just thought it would be interesting:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i would not suggest using HCG for pct, since it will delay normalisation of the hpta because the hcg will mimic LH, thereby affecting the bodys ability to regulate its own LH.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't think that's true. LH or hCG does not seem to feedback negatively on the pituitary (or hypothalamus) to shut down its own production (1,2). So you are not slowing recovery using hCG. In fact, hCG has been used alone succussfully to restore AAS induced hypogonadism.

As the hCG stimulates testosterone production, estrogen levels will rise, and these will act on pituitary/hypothalamus to slow recovery. Moreover, hCG induces testicular aromatase, which in turn leads to elevated Leydig cell estrogen levels. The estrogen in turn is believed to inhibit two enzymes involved in the conversion of pregnenolone to testosterone, 17,20-desmolase and 17alpha-hydroxylase. Hence my recommendation in your case (for someone who may not be able to take SERMs) to use an aromatase inhibitor along with the hCG.

It's obviously a controversial subject since there are so few published reports of succesful post cycle protocol in BB's.


(1) J Assist Reprod Genet. 1992 Apr;9(2):124-7.

Endogenous luteinizing hormone surges following administration of human chorionic gonadotropin: further evidence for lack of loop feedback in humans.

Nader S, Berkowitz AS.


(2) J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1989 Jul;69(1):170-6.

Inability to demonstrate an ultrashort loop feedback mechanism for luteinizing hormone in humans.

Kyle CV, Griffin J, Jarrett A, Odell WD

 

[KillerStack]

Also, for those thinking using an AI to boost testosterone and subsequently anabolism may want to look at the following study:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7

Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.

Mauras N, O'Brien KO, Klein KO, Hayes V.

Basically there was increase in test but no increase in anabolism. The authors said in the conclusion:

"The fact that we did not observe any detectable change in whole body protein kinetics or body composition despite the reciprocal increase in testosterone concentrations observed with anastrozole is also interesting. It is possible that this degree of increase in circulating androgens is not enough to see a change in protein kinetics and body composition with the metabolic tools of study used here."

And more interesting if true:

Alternatively, the data could be interpreted to indicate that estrogen is necessary for the full anabolic effect of testosterone to be observed in the male. This requires further study.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I remembered something Karl Hoffman (Nandi) wrote regarding this. Just thought it would be interesting:

Great article. Is that an abstract of a larger study because I see your footnotes? If so, I'd like to read it.
One thing is for certain is that there needs to be more research on this. HCG will definitely stimulate the testes (and the ovaries) and that's why it's so great. I use it during every cycle so that my boys stay ready to go back fully online again.

I was always under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that when trying to restore HPTA to normal function after a cycle, you don't want to use anything that mimics chemicals produced by the system. The hypothalamus secretes GnRH which signals the pituitary (I think) to produce LH. I don't think it's the LH that's suppressed directly by HCG but rather the exogenous LH stops the production of GnRH. All these glandulars have precursers and it gets very confusing and the entire process is complicated enough to not be fully understood by anyone. I'm not a fan of anecdotal evidence but I believe in a variation of Swale's HCG protocol and it has worked so well for me. That's all I can really tell you for a fact.

How pathetic is that?

p.s. I have never observed in myself any post-cyle benefit from HCG with the exception of the first few days up to a week.

 

[KillerStack]

Great article. Is that an abstract of a larger study because I see your footnotes? If so, I'd like to read it.
One thing is for certain is that there needs to be more research on this. HCG will definitely stimulate the testes (and the ovaries) and that's why it's so great. I use it during every cycle so that my boys stay ready to go back fully online again.

I was always under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that when trying to restore HPTA to normal function after a cycle, you don't want to use anything that mimics chemicals produced by the system. The hypothalamus secretes GnRH which signals the pituitary (I think) to produce LH. I don't think it's the LH that's suppressed directly by HCG but rather the exogenous LH stops the production of GnRH. All these glandulars have precursers and it gets very confusing and the entire process is complicated enough to not be fully understood by anyone. I'm not a fan of anecdotal evidence but I believe in a variation of Swale's HCG protocol and it has worked so well for me. That's all I can really tell you for a fact.

How pathetic is that?

That was Nandi's commentary on another forum on the studies he referenced at the bottom. It's complicated but from what I've read I like SWALE's protocol as well. Probably better than trying to bring the testes back after the cycle.

 

[TheGame46]

Ralox

In addition to IBE carrying the cabor, they have started to carry Ralox which provides selective estrogen antagonist effects on breast tissue, but postive agonsit effects on bone, and lipid metabolism. Some also speculate that it is stronger at inducing cell aopotosis in breast tissue. This alone or with cabor should make for an awesome combo.