Upper Limit On Protein

[Koevoet]

you do realize you are talking about an "expenditure" that you would outdo by wiping your ass after taking a shit don't you?

A 190 lb man is estimated to burn 518 calories per hour (8.63 cal./min.) punching a heavy bag or lifting weights with vigorous effort.

If the same 190 lb man eats 250g (1000 cal.) of protein a day, he will burn 300 cal. metabolizing it, the equivalent of 34 min. boxing or lifting weights.

If you use the 1.5g protein per kg of body weight rule (129g protein) it is 18 min. of boxing or lifting weights.

You must put a lot of effort into wiping your ass.

 

[marshall]

A 190 lb man is estimated to burn 518 calories per hour (8.63 cal./min.) punching a heavy bag or lifting weights with vigorous effort.

If the same 190 lb man eats 250g (1000 cal.) of protein a day, he will burn 300 cal. metabolizing it, the equivalent of 34 min. boxing or lifting weights.

If you use the 1.5g protein per kg of body weight rule (129g protein) it is 18 min. of boxing or lifting weights.

You must put a lot of effort into wiping your ass.

lol, yes I do prefer an adequately wiped ass !!

But I digress, back to the point....according to you, the thermogenic effect of eating carbs is about 25% of protein. So lets knock that 300 down to 225 by eating protein over carbs.

What you want to sell to me, is that you will have a different level of physique by using up an average of less than 10 calories per hour (225/24) metabolizing your chicken?

Not buying it

Be like Mentzer and eat a piece of cake every day !! 80-100g of protein is more than enough.

I guess if he ate 500g of protein, he would've packed alot more lean mass on his scrawny physique.

 

[Koevoet]

But I digress, back to the point....according to you, the thermogenic effect of eating carbs is about 25% of protein. So lets knock that 300 down to 225 by eating protein over carbs.

What you want to sell to me, is that you will have a different level of physique by using up an average of less than 10 calories per hour (225/24) metabolizing your chicken?

Not buying it

Be like Mentzer and eat a piece of cake every day !! 80-100g of protein is more than enough.

I guess if he ate 500g of protein, he would've packed alot more lean mass on his scrawny physique.

According to J P Flatt, PhD, Prof EM of Biochemistry, Univ Mass Med School and his research; not according to me.

A 225 calorie difference is also equivalent to 26 min. of exercise. Not quite as negligible as you are trying to making it out to be.

I am not trying to sell you anything. Just providing information. If you disagree with the information I have provided, I would be interesting in seeing research that presents a different view.

I do not have the same genetics as Mentzer, so I do not think that emulating him will have the same effect for me as it did for him. You appear to believe that 80-100g of protein is enough for everyone just because Mentzer claimed that it was enough for him. What makes Mentzer more believable than any other pro?

 

[marshall]

A 225 calorie difference is also equivalent to 26 min. of exercise. Not quite as negligible as you are trying to making it out to be.

What makes Mentzer more believable than any other pro?

I know you're not selling me, but I'm still not getting the benefit. Are you digesting your daily nutrient intake in 26 minutes?

No, you are doing it constantly, at least if you are eating every 3-4 hours like most guys do I'm assuming (I don't). So you're burning less than 10 calories per hour. I'd imagine getting dressed burns more than that, or playing on the internet. How is this going to maximize my physique?

Mentzer believable? I don't know, what would be the hidden agenda for saying he eats 80-100g of protein? I don't think he sold carb powder or anything.

 

[Liphted]

I really like the direction this thread has taken - its very informative. But most
importantly people are backing their stances with science and PROOF. Gasp... I
know its hard to believe but its true.

Anyways, I don't have much to contribute beyond what is already here, but it
seems not a lot of attention has been given to DEIZEL666's question, so here is my input.

I'm looking for some experiences people have had by increasing there daily caloric total by increasing protein. I know for me personally that if I take in too many carbs, I get fat. Same with too much fat. Problem is I need to increase my cals to get past a sticking point. What I was thinking was adding in another 100g of protein powder to my daily diet. This would increase my total intake from 350g to 450g.

Have you always isolated what you have increased? Meaning, have you only
raised a single macronutrient while keeping the others static? I'm a firm
believer in ratios and if thats the case I'd say try raising each and every one
slightly in grams consumed, but keeping the the ratios at what you've found
works for you (e.g. 50:30:20 or whatever). This will allow you to grab more
calories, but will limit any one macro that you've found to cause fat gain to
dominate.

Has anyone else done something similiar with positive results? Meaning added size without unwanted bodyfat.

I think if you are at a sticking point, and I mean really at a sticking point
(i.e. you have everything else nailed and slacking just one day on your diet
causes you to drop weight) you are going to have to add a slight amount of
body fat, unless of course you can perfectly count calories and know that
magical number where you will gain LBM. You've gotta look at what you're
trying to accomplish. You're essentially pushing your body past every point
it wants to be, continually forcing it to dynamically grow when it wants
nothing more than to be in a state of homeostasis. So, to my point, if you
are truly at a sticking point, except that to push past it that you might have
to acquire a SMALL amount of fat simply because of the inaccuracies of our
methods.

 

[Koevoet]

I know you're not selling me, but I'm still not getting the benefit. Are you digesting your daily nutrient intake in 26 minutes?

No, you are doing it constantly, at least if you are eating every 3-4 hours like most guys do I'm assuming (I don't). So you're burning less than 10 calories per hour. I'd imagine getting dressed burns more than that, or playing on the internet. How is this going to maximize my physique?

Mentzer believable? I don't know, what would be the hidden agenda for saying he eats 80-100g of protein? I don't think he sold carb powder or anything.

Actually TEF (the thermic effect of food) has been show to occur for up to 6 hours post intake.

I see what you are saying in terms of pure benefit. However to represent it as cal./hour is misleading in my opinion. Even 10 cal./hour is significant when you expend it continually.

Also, I am not saying that it is going to maximize or improve your physique. I am just saying it is what it is. Measurable, and statistically significant. The effect, if any, it could have on a person’s physique is reliant on a number of additional variables.

I am not saying Mentzer is not believable, I am just wondering why you have decided to believe his ideas over the ones from other pros and researchers?

What would you say Mentzer was? 5'8 225 (102kg) minimum? That would be .78g - 1.0g protein / kg body weight. About the same as the U.S. Recommended Dietary Allowance (0.8g/kg). There are studies indicating that a higher protein intake results in enhanced muscle development.

Lemon PW. Beyond the zone: protein needs of active individuals.
J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Oct;19(5 Suppl):513S-521S

Lemon PW. Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a physically active lifestyle? Nutr Rev. 1996 Apr;54(4 Pt 2):S169-75.

 

[marshall]

Also, I am not saying that it is going to maximize or improve your physique. I am just saying it is what it is.

I'll definitely agree with you on this part !

I believe Mentzer's theories because I've used them and they work and I'm not blessed with great genetics like Mentzer. If they didn't work, I would still admire his physique, but not follow his practices.

I've done from 75-500g of protein per day, 75-100 is perfect, but I don't ever count grams of anything, so I'm estimating. Somedays probably 50, some maybe 150.

 

[Liphted]

There are studies indicating that a higher protein intake results in enhanced muscle development.

Obviously this is true by the links you provided, but I've come across just
as many studies that state athletes need nothing more than the RDA. I've
also come across research that suggests athletes actually need less protein
than the RDA due to the fact that their bodies have become better and more
efficient at utilizing protein. So, at best, all that we can say is that there is
a lot of contradicting evidence.

Sorry for no links, I'm tired, but if you're really interested search on pubmed.

 

[ForemanRules]

Jeff King won the Universe and Mr America only eating 150-200g a day, Bill Pearl also only ate 150g a day.

 

[kal el]

Yes

The Mr.O Jay Cutler only consume 1.0/1.2g of protein per pound of bodyweight,nothing more,he says in his book that,he only eat 300g of protein daily,maximun 375g,nothing more,but eat 1000g of carb every single day. He say eaten 600g of protein is nuts, crazy and not necessary,his diet is low in fat,but he use a lot of EFAS,and he stay pretty lean in the offseason.I prefer to beleive him,because is work very well for me,despide all that paper studies.

 

[km2000]

heres a study on protein, overtraining, and athletes mechs

they advocate less protien(than we are talking about) and keeping carbs higher to not supress immune system function, also raising protein when injury occures.

check it out
http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.o...in Increases Plasma Tryptophan Availability "

html version:
**broken link removed**

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I couldnt disagree more strongly with alot of people in this thread.

Start with doing searches on the

Thermic effect of feeding or Thermic effect of food (TEF)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermic_effect_of_food

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Lonnie Lowery: Now might be a good time to discuss the potential for protein over-consumption. As you both know, there's no consensus (or even a single study to my knowledge) that excess protein (> 0.8 g/kg) does any measurable damage to healthy kidneys. Most of the scare tactics stem from the data on renal patients.

These patients end up with rapid loss of kidney function on normal high protein diets. Interestingly, the very professionals who point out every mistaken extrapolation in the dietary supplement world conveniently forget that they're doing the same "leap of faith" bullshit by applying this patient data to healthy athletes.

Having said that, I think there are real body composition advantages to eating upwards of 1.5 g/ lb. That's right, overfeed protein! First off, overeating protein, within reason, will not make you fat. A calorie is not a calorie! That is, excess protein calories aren't as likely to be stored as body fat compared to carbs and most fats.

This is because protein has to have its nitrogen ripped off in the liver (the urea cycle), which is an energy costly process. To boot, protein kicks up glucagon secretion and glucagon antagonizes the lipogenic (fat storage) effects of insulin.

Carbs don't lend people the same favor; they just jack insulin levels sky high. The net result is that the thermic effect of food is about 30% of the intake for proteins, while it's just 4 to 6% for fats and carbohydrates. This means that for a 100 calorie meal, protein will require a full 30 calories just to process it, compared to a mere 4 to 6 calories expended to process those yummy gut-expanding carbs and fats.

The bottom line is that it appears better to overeat than to under-eat protein when you're trying to add muscle mass while keeping the body fat off.

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**broken link removed**

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Welle et al. (1981) and Robinson et al (1990) demonstrated that during a normal six hour period of rest and fasting (basal metabolism), subjects burn about 270kcal. When eating a single 400kcal meal of carbs alone (100g) or fat alone (44g), the energy burned during this six hour period reached 290kcal (an additional 20kcal). Interestingly, when eating 400kcal of protein alone (100g) the subjects burned 310kcal during this six hour period (an additional 40kcal). Therefore, protein alone had double the thermogenic power vs. fat or carbs alone!

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Doggcrapp::You add exercise into the mix of this equation and the results are greatly enhanced.

 

[Koevoet]

The Mr.O Jay Cutler only consume 1.0/1.2g of protein per pound of bodyweight,nothing more,he says in his book that,he only eat 300g of protein daily,maximun 375g,nothing more,but eat 1000g of carb every single day. He say eaten 600g of protein is nuts, crazy and not necessary,his diet is low in fat,but he use a lot of EFAS,and he stay pretty lean in the offseason.I prefer to beleive him,because is work very well for me,despide all that paper studies.

According to his **broken link removed** he is 285lb and eating about 530g protein a day. That is 1.9g per lb which is 4.1g / kg.

 

[kal el]

yes

He change his diet in 2005 to more protein and less carbs,his workout too,less sets,more weights,just one workout for day...he change everything...but his body was building with another diet and another workout program,like he say in his website,his goal with that diet is not more muscle mass,just stay in condition.Any way,still are less than 600g of protein,and,this guy is huge and take in his new workout every set to failure.Excuse my english,im still learning.

 

[Ashop]

I'm looking for some experiences people have had by increasing there daily caloric total by increasing protein. I know for me personally that if I take in too many carbs, I get fat. Same with too much fat. Problem is I need to increase my cals to get past a sticking point. What I was thinking was adding in another 100g of protein powder to my daily diet. This would increase my total intake from 350g to 450g.

Has anyone else done something similiar with positive results? Meaning added size without unwanted bodyfat.

I've done it many times with good results to help push past sticking points. try adding some good fats as well.

 

[KillerStack]

you should post the study, I'm interested to see the details.
from what I undertand carbs like any other macro nutrient will turn to fat if consumed in excess and not used,

I belive carbs also create an insulin response that halts Lipolysis, and if glycogen stores are full, insulin will shuttle the carbs to fats stores

is insulin the mech you are talking about?

Yeah my understanding is that carbs converting to fat (de novo lipogenesis) is not a major pathway to increased bodyfat. It does happen if you are eating extremely high amounts of carbs and/or taking in very low dietary fat. I believe fructose may convert easier as well. But of course, this is just technical minutiae pretty much as we all know eating anything to excess will make you fat. The mechanism isn't that important.

Here's an example:

Metabolism. 1982 Dec;31(12):1234-40. Related Articles, Links

Glycogen synthesis versus lipogenesis after a 500 gram carbohydrate meal in man.

Acheson KJ, Flatt JP, Jequier E.

The respiratory exchange and urinary nitrogen excretion of 6 healthy male subjects (age 21 +/- 1 yr; body weight 70 +/- 2 kg; means +/- SD) were followed for 10 hr after ingestion of a large amount of carbohydrates (CHO) in the form of bread, jam, and fruit juice, equivalent to 479 g of starch. Peak values for blood glucose (6.6 +/- 0.6 mM; mean +/- SEM) and plasma insulin (139 +/- 26 microU/ml) were reached after 90 min at which time the nonprotein respiratory quotient (NP-RQ) had risen to 0.97. During the next 8 hr glucose levels remained near 5.5 mM while insulin declined gradually to 22 +/- 7 microU/ml. The average NP-RQ remained in the range of 0.91 to 0.98, though individual values exceeding 1.0 for very short periods were observed. The increase in energy expenditure above basal rates corresponded to a specific dynamic action (SDA) of 5.9 +/- 0.6%. Assuming the CHO load to be completely absorbed after 5 hr, and allowing for glucose oxidation calculated from the gas exchange data, the glycogen content of the subject's body tissue had then increased by 408 +/- 19 g. During the 10 hr after the meal, 133 g CHO, 17 g fat and 29 g protein were oxidized, providing respectively 66%, 19% and 15% of caloric expenditure, and leaving a gain in glycogen stores estimated at 346 +/- 12 g. The data imply that: (1) The capacity for glycogen storage in man in larger than generally believed, and (2) Fat synthesis from CHO will not exceed fat oxidation after one high-carbohydrate meal, even if it is uncommonly large. When a single high-carbohydrate meal is consumed, dietary CHO merely has the effect of reducing the rate of fat oxidation. These findings challenge the common perception that conversion of CHO to fat is an important pathway for the retention of dietary energy and for the accumulation of body fat.

 

[oldfella]

To answer the original question: I always look to up my protein intake if I need/want to. I have donr this every time I compete and all I can say is "Works every time" for me. Start getting bigger and heavier and leaner. some of the protocols used for these studies refered to here might and I said might be questionable. The problem with most scientific studies that I have been able to read is they rarely if ever use real BBers for this. They usually use college trained athletes or the average joe on the street. So all of the variables are missing, like, Juice, no juice, Length of time training ie yrs, and age. I will get blasted for what I'm about to say but I do not put much faith in most studies for the above reasons. Now take a group of competitive BBers and split them into two groups. Give one group all the juice they want and all the protien they can consume and give the other measured amounts of protein and no juice. Then you might have a real life study with real life results. The difference between the two groups would be huge. I do believe there is only so much protein the human body can process at any given time. The hard part is working out just how much is too much and how little is too little. For this you need to do your own research. Go on a Very high protien diet for 6weeks. See how your body responds, then back off your protein intake for 6weeks and see what changes. All I can say from my own experience is that I respond very well to mega protein and keep the clean carbs and good fat in my diet.