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Upper Limit On Protein

can you two guys stop bitching and get some data in here to back yourselves up.

I'm a proponent of very high protein but have no studies to prove it, i just like it from experience.. I love the furnace feeling i get from 500-600gms a day
 
?

bellicose said:
can you two guys stop bitching and get some data in here to back yourselves up.

I'm a proponent of very high protein but have no studies to prove it, i just like it from experience.. I love the furnace feeling i get from 500-600gms a day

WHY DONT YOU LOOK IT UP AND ADD SOMETHING HERE.
 
PHIL HERNON said:
ANYONE THAT PAID ATTENTION IN HIGH SCHOOL NUTRITION OR BIOLOGY CAN DEBATE YOU, THANK YOU. WHERE DID YOU GO TO COLLEGE? IF YOU CALL REFUTING BULLSHIT ON HERE BEING ON THE RAG, THEN I AM ON THE RAG TO THE NTH.

would you like me to post my pic now or later phil? it looks like you have to be 300lbs ripped and have an ivy league grad. to enter a debate with you! haha

phil, please prove me wrong, POST A STUDY!!

if you dont have one, or any research proving me wrong, please go to another thread where you have something usefull to offer
 
km2000 said:
I am not sure the body can break down protien and store it as glycogen? it can break down amino's from protien and use them as glucose if no carbs are available.

any excess protien will be wasted and excreted, this is why on a high protien diet you have to piss all the time, the body is excreting nitrogen.

Read phil, r e a d
 
Note that I put it in bold in case somebody might still not see it :p
 
Here you go guys, some basic biology for those of you that forgot...protein can be converted to glucose and stored as glycogen.
Glycogenesis, Glycogenolysis,
and Gluconeogenesis

Biosynthesis of Glycogen:

The goal of glycolysis, glycogenolysis, and the citric acid cycle is to conserve energy as ATP from the catabolism of carbohydrates. If the cells have sufficient supplies of ATP, then these pathways and cycles are inhibited. Under these conditions of excess ATP, the liver will attempt to convert a variety of excess molecules into glucose and/or glycogen.

Glycogenesis:

Glycogenesis is the formation of glycogen from glucose. Glycogen is synthesized depending on the demand for glucose and ATP (energy). If both are present in relatively high amounts, then the excess of insulin promotes the glucose conversion into glycogen for storage in liver and muscle cells.

In the synthesis of glycogen, one ATP is required per glucose incorporated into the polymeric branched structure of glycogen. actually, glucose-6-phosphate is the cross-roads compound. Glucose-6-phosphate is synthesized directly from glucose or as the end product of gluconeogenesis.

Link to: Interactive Glycogenesis (move cursor over arrows)
Jim Hardy, Professor of Chemistry, The University of Akron.





Click for larger image
Glycogenolysis:

In glycogenolysis, glycogen stored in the liver and muscles, is converted first to glucose-1- phosphate and then into glucose-6-phosphate. Two hormones which control glycogenolysis are a peptide, glucagon from the pancreas and epinephrine from the adrenal glands.

Glucagon is released from the pancreas in response to low blood glucose and epinephrine is released in response to a threat or stress. Both hormones act upon enzymes to stimulate glycogen phosphorylase to begin glycogenolysis and inhibit glycogen synthetase (to stop glycogenesis).

Glycogen is a highly branched polymeric structure containing glucose as the basic monomer. First individual glucose molecules are hydrolyzed from the chain, followed by the addition of a phosphate group at C-1. In the next step the phosphate is moved to the C-6 position to give glucose 6-phosphate, a cross road compound.

Glucose-6-phosphate is the first step of the glycolysis pathway if glycogen is the carbohydrate source and further energy is needed. If energy is not immediately needed, the glucose-6-phosphate is converted to glucose for distribution in the blood to various cells such as brain cells.




Click for larger image
Biosynthesis of Glucose:

Gluconeogenesis:

Gluconeogenesis is the process of synthesizing glucose from non-carbohydrate sources. The starting point of gluconeogenesis is pyruvic acid, although oxaloacetic acid and dihydroxyacetone phosphate also provide entry points. Lactic acid, some amino acids from protein and glycerol from fat can be converted into glucose. Gluconeogenesis is similar but not the exact reverse of glycolysis, some of the steps are the identical in reverse direction and three of them are new ones. Without going into detail, the general gluconeogenesis sequence is given in the graphic on the left.

Notice that oxaloacetic acid is synthesized from pyruvic acid in the first step. Oxaloacetic acid is also the first compound to react with acetyl CoA in the citric acid cycle. The concentration of acetyl CoA and ATP determines the fate of oxaloacetic acid. If the concentration of acetyl CoA is low and concentration of ATP is high then gluconeogenesis proceeds. Also notice that ATP is required for a biosynthesis sequence of gluconeogenesis.

Gluconeogenesis occurs mainly in the liver with a small amount also occurring in the cortex of the kidney. Very little gluconeogenesis occurs in the brain, skeletal muscles, heart muscles or other body tissue. In fact, these organs have a high demand for glucose. Therefore, gluconeogenesis is constantly occurring in the liver to maintain the glucose level in the blood to meet these demands.

Link to: Interactive Gluconeogenesis (move cursor over arrows)
Jim Hardy, Professor of Chemistry, The University of Akron.
 
PHIL HERNON said:
LET EM ASK YOU A FEW QUESTIONS.
1. YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT SURE IF THE BODY CAN BREAK DOWN PROTEIN AND STORE IT AS GLYCOGEN? WHAT MAY I ASK DOES IT STORE IT AS?
2. YOU SAY IT CAN BREAK DOWN AMINOS FROM PROTEIN AND USE THEM AS GLUCOSE IF NO CARBS ARE AVAILABLE. PROTEIN IS ESSENTIALLYAMINO ACIDS EINSTEIN. IF THE BODY CAN USE THEM AS GLUCOSE THEN IT SURE AS HELL CAN STORE IT AS GLYCOGEN. WHERE DO YOU THINK GLYCOGEN COMES FROM?
3. YOU SAY ANY EXCESS PROTEIN WILL BE WASTED AND EXCRETED, BUT YOU JUST SAID PRIOR TO THAT STATEMENT THAT THE BODY CAN USE IT AS GLUCOSE.
4. PEOPLE ON A HIGH PROTEIN DIET PISS MORE? WHERE IS THE FLUID TO PISS COMING FROM?
5. NIOTROGEN TO YOU IS PROTEIN, AS YOU STATED EARLIER. IF YOU ARE PISSING OUT PROTEIN, YOU ARE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE, ESPECIALLY THE EXCESS PROTEIN THAT YOU STATED EARLIER THAT WOULD BE EXCRETED IF IT WAS NOT USED.
I have a feelin you still arent going to understand this simple concept but here it goes

1 phil glucose and glycogen are different(pm me and I will explain the difference to you) the body wont store excess protien as glycogen, it will store it as fat. if you dont belive me, have one of your trainees that weigh 180lbs eat 1500 grams of protien a day and dont tell me thet dont get fat. do you really think they will be able to store it all as glycogen? we all know carbs in excess will lead to fat if not used as glycogen or burned off(same thing)

2 I said if the body is in ketosis(no carbs) the body will result to aminos(which are essentially protien, yes) to be used as glucose to keep you ALIVE!

3 see 1 and 2

4 give me a sec and I will post a study

5 where did I state nitrogen is protien? the body excretes nitrogen in excess if too much protien is being consumed, hence the excess urination
 
DUDE

km2000 said:
I have a feelin you still arent going to understand this simple concept but here it goes

1 phil glucose and glycogen are different(pm me and I will explain the difference to you) the body wont store excess protien as glycogen, it will store it as fat. if you dont belive me, have one of your trainees that weigh 180lbs eat 1500 grams of protien a day and dont tell me thet dont get fat. do you really think they will be able to store it all as glycogen? we all know carbs in excess will lead to fat if not used as glycogen or burned off(same thing)

2 I said if the body is in ketosis(no carbs) the body will result to aminos(which are essentially protien, yes) to be used as glucose to keep you ALIVE!

3 see 1 and 2

4 give me a sec and I will post a study

5 where did I state nitrogen is protien? the body excretes nitrogen in excess if too much protien is being consumed, hence the excess urination

SCROLL UP AND READ THAT STUDY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT SCROLL UP MEANS? I FEEL LIKE I AM TALKING TO A 3RD GRADER. MAYBE IT IS YOUR NAP TIME?
 
PHIL HERNON said:
WHY DONT YOU LOOK IT UP AND ADD SOMETHING HERE.
cause i don't fucking care....more protein = more muscle to me.

I told you to find a study but instead i know you will bitch back and forth with kim until this thread is 8 pages long....and get nothing accomplished. Just like all the other threads where you get your man panties in a bunch, the caps button comes on and your posts start to lack any real value.

Grow up
 
PHIL HERNON said:
SCROLL UP AND READ THAT STUDY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT SCROLL UP MEANS? I FEEL LIKE I AM TALKING TO A 3RD GRADER. MAYBE IT IS YOUR NAP TIME?

ghostdog128 thanks for the info, I'm glad we got that out of the way. I wasnt sure exactly how it worked but that clears it up.(phil befor you bash me for flip flopin, note I said I wasnt sure if it was possible, not impossible) now if I understand correctly, amino to glycogen will occur if carbs are not available? or is this occuring on a regular bascis?

my point from the begining being that if glycogen levels are full (or close to it) the excess protien will be metobolized and excreted in the form of nitrogen (not protien phil )

"Urea is formed in the liver as the end product of protein metabolism. During digestion, protein is broken down to amino acids. Amino acids contain nitrogen, which is removed as NH4+ (ammonium ion), while the rest of the molecule is used to produce energy or other substances needed by the cell. The ammonia is combined with other small molecules to produce urea. The urea makes its way into the blood and it is ultimately eliminated in the urine by the kidneys."
 
KM2000

km2000 said:
ghostdog128 thanks for the info, I'm glad we got that out of the way. I wasnt sure exactly how it worked but that clears it up.(phil befor you bash me for flip flopin, note I said I wasnt sure if it was possible, not impossible) now if I understand correctly, amino to glycogen will occur if carbs are not available? or is this occuring on a regular bascis?

my point from the begining being that if glycogen levels are full (or close to it) the excess protien will be metobolized and excreted in the form of nitrogen (not protien phil )

"Urea is formed in the liver as the end product of protein metabolism. During digestion, protein is broken down to amino acids. Amino acids contain nitrogen, which is removed as NH4+ (ammonium ion), while the rest of the molecule is used to produce energy or other substances needed by the cell. The ammonia is combined with other small molecules to produce urea. The urea makes its way into the blood and it is ultimately eliminated in the urine by the kidneys."

Here is what you need to understand. I think you are confused here a bit. Excess protein WILL NOT BE EXCRETED IN THE FORM OF NITROGEN. Excess protein will be stored as fat. BUN is blood urea nitrogen, it is a measure of blood urea nitrogen. If you become dehydrated your BUN and creatine levels can raise substantially. If you eat a lot of protein, please drink a lot of water because of this.
 
DIEZEL666 said:
I'm looking for some experiences people have had by increasing there daily caloric total by increasing protein. I know for me personally that if I take in too many carbs, I get fat. Same with too much fat. Problem is I need to increase my cals to get past a sticking point. What I was thinking was adding in another 100g of protein powder to my daily diet. This would increase my total intake from 350g to 450g.

Has anyone else done something similiar with positive results? Meaning added size without unwanted bodyfat.


well , if you are low on carbs you want to add more fat to your diet . that does not mean you will get fat . but you will need these fats to not have your body use your muscle for fuel . if you are to low on carbs , meaning no energy etc.. your body will try to get energy from fat . if you don't supply it , you body will use your muscles via gluconeogenesis . protein will be converted into glucose etc..
an extra 100 g protein is 400 cals .
400 cals coming from fat = 45 g .

how much fat are you takinjg in right now ? what are your stats ?
post your diet !

wake
 
from webmd

Uric acid


Uric acid is a waste product that results from normal body processes and is also found in some foods and alcohol. Normally, the kidneys eliminate uric acid from the body in urine.

A buildup of uric acid in the body may cause kidney stones, kidney damage, or a form of arthritis called gout. This may occur when the body produces too much uric acid or when the kidneys cannot eliminate uric acid adequately.

Medication and diet changes can reduce the amount of uric acid in the body.

Urea


Urea is a waste product that is made in the intestines and liver when protein breaks down. The kidneys then eliminate urea from the body in urine.
 
km2000 said:
my point from the begining being that if glycogen levels are full (or close to it) the excess protien will be metobolized and excreted in the form of nitrogen (not protien phil )

That is not what you said, KM. Also, before you edited the post below it did say the body excreted protein.

You said:
km2000 said:
I am not sure the body can break down protien and store it as glycogen? it can break down amino's from protien and use them as glucose if no carbs are available.

any excess protien will be wasted and excreted, this is why on a high protien diet you have to piss all the time, the body is excreting nitrogen.

You were/are wrong. See ghostdogs post regarding the glycogen issue.
Dietary protein is digested and absorbed as aminos, the aminos are then metabolized by the liver and the body. The deamination and transamination of amino acids results in the production of ammonia, not nitrogen. The ammonia is converted to urea and then is excreted via the kidneys in urine.

Excess protein undergoes the very same metabolism, however the carbon skeletons are converted to carbohydrates via gluconeogenesis, or fatty acids via fatty acid synthesis pathways; depending on whether the amino is glucogenic, ketogenic, or glucogenic & ketogenic.
 
km2000 said:
my point from the begining being that if glycogen levels are full (or close to it) the excess protien will be metobolized and excreted in the form of nitrogen (not protien phil )

I'm sorry bro but that ladies and gentlemen is incorrect. If glycogen levels are full, the body doesn't have anything else to do but store it as fat, plain and simple. It won't be excreted in the form of nitrogen.

And for excess protein to be converted into fat trust me there has to be some real calories going on, because you are constantly using your amino acid pool.Thats why we are always feeding ourself with protein, we want to be in a positive nitrogen balance, not excreting nitrogen ffs.
 
Koevoet said:
That is not what you said, KM. Also, before you edited the post below it did say the body excreted protein.

You said:

You were/are wrong. See ghostdogs post regarding the glycogen issue.
Dietary protein is digested and absorbed as aminos, the aminos are then metabolized by the liver and the body. The deamination and transamination of amino acids results in the production of ammonia, not nitrogen. The ammonia is converted to urea and then is excreted via the kidneys in urine.

Excess protein undergoes the very same metabolism, however the carbon skeletons are converted to carbohydrates via gluconeogenesis, or fatty acids via fatty acid synthesis pathways; depending on whether the amino is glucogenic, ketogenic, or glucogenic & ketogenic.

I didnt change my original post i added to it when edited, if i said protien was excreted then why didnt you reply and call bullshit on me when you saw it?


o.k. , lets figure this out, I pulled this from
**broken link removed**
it is talking about bun testing
"urea is a substance that is formed in the liver when the body breaks down protein. urea then circulates in the blood in the form of urea nitrogen. In healthy people, most urea nitrogen is filtered out by the kidneys and leaves the body in the urine. If the patient's kidneys are not functioning properly or if the body is using large amounts of protein, the BUN level will rise. If the patient has severe liver disease, the BUN will drop."

it clearly states that urea nitro leaves the body through urine,

I was tryiny to put it in layman terms, so others can understand it too. now if I am wrong, please correct me as i would like to figure this out too.
 

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