Vicaine and suboxone

[Mike Arnold]

A lot of strong feelings on this thread. I have opinions but just keeping them to myself. It's just incredible how many of us have experience, losses and first hand knowledge. I don't see right or wrong on this thread just pain and struggle.

People may have had pain and struggle, but there is a LOT of incorrect info being spread around.

 

[Mike Arnold]

of course your doctors want you to stay on it...

they get their pockets lined too...

that's the scam....

your right....its not the same....its worse....what makes it worse..???
blood life...

Few people hate Big Pharma as much as me. It's not about getting "free" of opioids...its about improving the person's life. If you think dying and/or living in hell is "worse" than living a happy, normal life...well, I guess everyone has their own opinions.

Bup users= a normal life, for the most part

Heroin users= life is wreck, dying, OD's, hospitals, prisons, psyche wards, etc.

Worse? Hmm?

 

[Mike Arnold]

the new thing now......is SHOOTING sub.....

peeps are shooting 8mg films and getting high...

for like 24 hours

It's been going on from the beginning. The medical community thought the strips would prevent that kind of abuse...and it does for the most part, but some people still do it.

While injecting Bup does provide a more intense effect than sublingual absorption, it's still not comparable to heroin and other full agonists...from a euphoric standpoint...which is why no heroin addict ever says "man, let me have that bup instead". Doesn't happen. No active addict WANTS to use bup over full agonists...because it SUCKS in comparison. Bup is only used by people in recovery (no longer using full agonists) or by people who can't find anything else.

 

[Mike Arnold]

WOW this thread went crazy, I know we all have had some shitty experiences with these drugs and best wishes to all. So the moral of this thread is dont take vicaine if you have an opiate problem!

Exactly...as it says right on the bottle.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Suboxone is worse in my opinion. It's more addictive than Crack mixed with dope mixed with benzos mixed with the best antidepressant type thing. It does EVERYTHING for your brain so your brain shuts off and doesn't produce dick anymore.

I have a list of supplements I can recommend to help you taper off of the subs. Mostly things that helps boost dopamine naturally and a few other things that you'd never think of that I just so happened to of found that helped.


And to answer your question I think that tianeptine would most definitely interact with the naloxone in subs and with the bupinorphine itself as it is a partial antagonist as well, considering that tianeptine interacts with all three opiate receptors just like morphine etc. Amd if there have reported cases of people going into a rehab for it (forster case was in Europe somewhere, believe it was the UK) then I would most definitely stay away from it.
And again, if people are posting about how they can get high from mega dosing the stuff on reddit and bluelight then I would also venture a guess that it's no good for someone trying to stay clean.

Again, if you would like some help with natty supps to help you taper off the subs lmk. And lastly, Kratom can be your best friend and worst enemy for tapering off so don't think that stuff is without consequence. Basically think of it like this- if you take it and it alters the way your body feels about anything then there has to be a down side. Even nsaids can kill you, my father is proof. After 30+ yrs of 6-800mg ibuprofen for his horrific archaic neck surgeries (plural) where's they wrapped wire around his vertebrae, his liver was covered in cysts and looked the same as a chronic severe alcoholic the Dr's said.

Sorry for lengthy rant, coffee is kicking in. Hope this helps and the board is here for ya. Stay serine

That comment is absolute INSANITY. Worse than crack mixed with dope mixed with benzos? Are you frickin' stupid?

 

[Samson250]

Welcome To..


Professional Opioids.com
Opioid antagonist community

 

[Swifto]

That comment is absolute INSANITY. Worse than crack mixed with dope mixed with benzos? Are you frickin' stupid?

Why have you been using Bup for 11 years?

 

[way2tense]

i always thought the naloxone in suboxone tabs made it so you couldnt iv it...

but from my experience it just not so...

im telling you i got HIGH...my ol' lady experienced the same thing...

 

[johnjuanb1]

i always thought the naloxone in suboxone tabs made it so you couldnt iv it...

but from my experience it just not so...

im telling you i got HIGH...my ol' lady experienced the same thing...

Naloxone is in nubain which was iv’d.

 

[sub7percent]

The naloxone in suboxone is NOT what prevents people from getting high while taking other opiates...because the naloxone isn't absorbed orally. It is only when a sub is injected that the naloxone can cause withdrawal...and is the entire reason naloxone is included in Suboxone. Naloxone is NOT included in suboxone to prevent other opioids from working.



please do respond...becuase you do not understand how this drug works. The Buprenorphine ITSELF is what stop other opioids from working...because of its very high binding affinity it prevents other opioids from attaching.



Now, if someone is currently addicted to other opioids, such as heroin...and the person takes any kind of buprenorphine containing drug, it WILL cause withdrawal because it will knock the heroin off the receptor.



However, if the person is no longer addicted to other opioids and has been taking buprenorphine for a while...and then takes another opioid...the other opioid will have no effect because it cannot bind.

Mike - thanks for your comments. Some of what you are saying I did not know about bupe like regarding the low likelihood of OD regardless of dosage.

Just want to share something though. While the naltrexone is supposed to deter people from injecting suboxone iv, it does so only by this hypothesis that it will cause withdrawal. I can tell you that iv injections of suboxone brand bupe/nalaxone will not do this.


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[Mike Arnold]

i always thought the naloxone in suboxone tabs made it so you couldnt iv it...

but from my experience it just not so...

im telling you i got HIGH...my ol' lady experienced the same thing...

You're right...this can happen because the naloxone dose often isn't high enough to completely stop the Bup from binding, especially when the Bup dose rises above a certain amount.

Now, whether or not someone will get high/experience withdrawal when injecting suboxone (bup +naloxone) will depend on a few factors. If the person is accustomed to injecting only bup on a daily basis...and they then try to inject naloxone with bup, they can (and often will) experience a withdrawal effect (to varying degrees). This is because the naloxone may drive enough Bup off the receptors so that Bup concentrations reach below normal levels (for the individual), thereby precipitating withdrawal.

However, if the person is not a regular bup user and injects both, they can potentially receive a high (although greatly reduced compared to something like heroin) because their receptors have not been accustomed to having a certain quantity of Bup present at all times. Therefore, the individual's high will be dependent on whatever quantity of Bup is able to bind.

Of course, another huge factor is the ratio of bup to naloxone. Obviously, as the dose of naloxone rises relative to Bup, the greater the potential for withdrawal...and the worse it will be. Conversely, the smaller the ratio of naloxone to bup, the greater the potential high.

Furthermore, naloxone only stays active for about an hour, while Bup will stay active for 1-2 days (depending on individual metabolism). So, regardless of the factors presented above, the naloxone will wear off within about an hour, allowing the full dose of bup to become active for the remainder of its life. As a result, the user receives a high.

In conclusion, when injecting Bup + naloxone some people experience withdrawal for about an hour followed by a high...and others will get high right away, with the high intensifying about an hour later.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Why have you been using Bup for 11 years?

Opioid maintenance. That's why people use Buprenorphine.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike - thanks for your comments. Some of what you are saying I did not know about bupe like regarding the low likelihood of OD regardless of dosage.

Just want to share something though. While the naltrexone is supposed to deter people from injecting suboxone iv, it does so only by this hypothesis that it will cause withdrawal. I can tell you that iv injections of suboxone brand bupe/nalaxone will not do this.


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It can cause withdrawal...to varying degrees, but it depends on the circumstances. I just addressed this in the post above. There are so many factors to consider...and most people aren't aware of all of them, so they often come to false conclusions based on their own personal experience...which may not reflect the experience of another.

 

[n3mo0101]

Man I've been off dope for 3 years and was actively shooting the shit for 4. Why the F*CK would you take an opiate if you're trying to get clean?

1.) Detox off the suboxone because you're not really clean. I did it in jail, it sucked, but it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

2.) Go to NA or AA. Ask for help. You probably can't do it by yourself. Actually, I know you can't because you're on suboxone. Its not a bad thing. I couldn't do it myself. It took jail, rehab, and AA.

3.) Stay away from gear and vicaine (lol can't believe I'm saying this) until you're completely clean.

4.) Get on vivitrol if you have a lot of trouble.

Please help yourself and get clean for good man. I have accomplished more in the 3 years I've been clean than most people do in their entire lives.

 

[lntense]

Suboxone can be just as bad as heroin. It's dependent on the person and their makeup. I've had friends in far worse shape from subs verses when they were on H. Because their families and wives thought that it was a "treatment" med. and in some cases it is. But a majority of the time those individuals just become equally or more so addicted to that drug.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Man I've been off dope for 3 years and was actively shooting the shit for 4. Why the F*CK would you take an opiate if you're trying to get clean?

1.) Detox off the suboxone because you're not really clean. I did it in jail, it sucked, but it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

2.) Go to NA or AA. Ask for help. You probably can't do it by yourself. Actually, I know you can't because you're on suboxone. Its not a bad thing. I couldn't do it myself. It took jail, rehab, and AA.

3.) Stay away from gear and vicaine (lol can't believe I'm saying this) until you're completely clean.

4.) Get on vivitrol if you have a lot of trouble.

Please help yourself and get clean for good man. I have accomplished more in the 3 years I've been clean than most people do in their entire lives.

It's common sense that someone isn't technically "clean" when using buprenorphine, but it's not really about being "clean". It is about the person's quality of life. After all, isn't that the WHOLE reason people get clean from drugs like heroin--to regain their former quality of life? Yes...it is. To quote the AA Big Book, addiction is a problem for one main reason..."because their lives have become unmanageable".

So, if Bup helps the individual regain manageability...and their life is better with it than without it, isn't that what we are all trying to accomplish? Isn't that the whole point of being "clean". Yes...yes it is.

If that means not using Bup...great, but if it means someone needs to use it, well, that's fine too. Whatever it takes to regain their former quality of life. In your case, you do better without it, but there are many others who have gone off Bup for years and then realized their life was better with it, so they went back on.

You are entitled to your opinion, but there is no denying that many peoples' lives are better with Bup. I am one of them. My life has never been better. I have never been healthier. I have never been more mentally and emotionally sound. I have never been more successful. It's worked miracles for me. Even after 5 years of being completely clean (before Bup), my life SUCKED. I was constantly depressed...constantly had insomnia...and always had this internal feeling of things being "off". I never felt well, despite taking every measure I could think of to restore normal functioning.

Once I went on Bup (after 5 years of being clean), my life changed for the better in every way. No more cravings for ANY opioid. No more depression...no more insomnia...more more "off" feeling. I am happy and content and I cannot tell I even use Bup anymore. my brain adapted to the drug many years ago, yet all of its benefits are still present.

I cannot even begin to tell you how many people I saw in AA/NA who were still struggling with addiction and its long-term consequences even after years of being clean. For these people, staying clean meant becoming a slave to their recovery. They constantly had to go to meetings, constantly be involved in support groups, constantly work 12 step programs, constantly meet wit their sponsor...and it was still a constant struggle.

Guess what? I did all that for 5 years...all of it...and I realized that I had become a slave to recovery. It required constant work. I had to depend on all of the things mentioned above just to stay clean...and yet I was still unwell because my brain's functioning never normalized. To be honest, I don't think it ever was normal...because I feel better and happier now than before I ever used a single opioid. Staying clean without Bup was a constant battle...and for what? So I could give up a life of hardship for a life of sacrifice?

I bypassed all of that hardship and sacrifice with a single pill...and my life is infinitely better because of it. I no longer have to call people at 2 am saying I am struggling not to use. I don't have to go to NA meeting 5 days a week. I don't have to sit down with sponsors. I don't have to go to support groups.


My life is actually normal now. The only downside is that I am now a slave to a pill, but I would rather be a slave to a pill that causes my life no problems and only makes it better...than endure life a life of constant struggle and sacrifice. That is a trade-off I was happy to make and anytime the topic of buprenorphine and my addiction comes up, I always tell people that it saved my life.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wants to go the AA/NA, sponsor, support group, insomnia, depression, pain and sacrifice route...but neither should anyone have a problem with those who choose another path. Even recovery groups are now finally starting to accept people who use buprenorphine as being in active recovery...because they were forced to accept that these people's lives are now manageable again...and that's the whole point of recovery. Experience is bearing this out every day in the real-world.

 

[sub7percent]

It's common sense that someone isn't technically "clean" when using buprenorphine, but it's not really about being "clean". It is about the person's quality of life. After all, isn't that the WHOLE reason people get clean from drugs like heroin--to regain their former quality of life? Yes...it is. To quote the AA Big Book, addiction is a problem for one main reason..."because their lives have become unmanageable".



So, if Bup helps the individual regain manageability...and their life is better with it than without it, isn't that what we are all trying to accomplish? Isn't that the whole point of being "clean". Yes...yes it is.



If that means not using Bup...great, but if it means someone needs to use it, well, that's fine too. Whatever it takes to regain their former quality of life. In your case, you do better without it, but there are many others who have gone off Bup for years and then realized their life was better with it, so they went back on.



You are entitled to your opinion, but there is no denying that many peoples' lives are better with Bup. I am one of them. My life has never been better. I have never been healthier. I have never been more mentally and emotionally sound. I have never been more successful. It's worked miracles for me. Even after 5 years of being completely clean (before Bup), my life SUCKED. I was constantly depressed...constantly had insomnia...and always had this internal feeling of things being "off". I never felt well, despite taking every measure I could think of to restore normal functioning.



Once I went on Bup (after 5 years of being clean), my life changed for the better in every way. No more cravings for ANY opioid. No more depression...no more insomnia...more more "off" feeling. I am happy and content and I cannot tell I even use Bup anymore. my brain adapted to the drug many years ago, yet all of its benefits are still present.



I cannot even begin to tell you how many people I saw in AA/NA who were still struggling with addiction and its long-term consequences even after years of being clean. For these people, staying clean meant becoming a slave to their recovery. They constantly had to go to meetings, constantly be involved in support groups, constantly work 12 step programs, constantly meet wit their sponsor...and it was still a constant struggle.



Guess what? I did all that for 5 years...all of it...and I realized that I had become a slave to recovery. It required constant work. I had to depend on all of the things mentioned above just to stay clean...and yet I was still unwell because my brain's functioning never normalized. To be honest, I don't think it ever was normal...because I feel better and happier now than before I ever used a single opioid. Staying clean without Bup was a constant battle...and for what? So I could give up a life of hardship for a life of sacrifice?



I bypassed all of that hardship and sacrifice with a single pill...and my life is infinitely better because of it. I no longer have to call people at 2 am saying I am struggling not to use. I don't have to go to NA meeting 5 days a week. I don't have to sit down with sponsors. I don't have to go to support groups.





My life is actually normal now. The only downside is that I am now a slave to a pill, but I would rather be a slave to a pill that causes my life no problems and only makes it better...than endure life a life of constant struggle and sacrifice. That is a trade-off I was happy to make and anytime the topic of buprenorphine and my addiction comes up, I always tell people that it saved my life.



Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wants to go the AA/NA, sponsor, support group, insomnia, depression, pain and sacrifice route...but neither should anyone have a problem with those who choose another path. Even recovery groups are now finally starting to accept people who use buprenorphine as being in active recovery...because they were forced to accept that it is providing all the benefits that recovery provides. Experience is bearing this out every day in the real-world.

Mike - thanks for sharing your personal story. I would like to add though, and share from personal experience, that many who are in a 12 step program who actually LIVE the program, do not feel that it is a constant struggle. Many in this respect do not feel they are a slave to their recovery. These people have awakened spiritually and view ongoing recovery as ongoing spiritual enlightenment. I find that through recovery I have gained so much more spiritually than I have had I not needed to go that route. Now, there are certainly very many people who do appear to be working a program and go to meeting after meeting but they still struggle with their addiction. These are those (including myself in the past) who have failed to gain the level of honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness needed to make spiritual progress.

I am only sharing this because while you have your own personal experience and journey, I know that for many simply taking a maintenance drug or other substance may not be enough. To each his own, no doubt, but with that some may need a 12 step program and may benefit from it - others, like yourself as you have suggested, may not. For me, suboxone was never enough for me, I need to apply a spiritual program of recovery in order to not be a slave to addiction (with or without the use of drugs).


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[Mike Arnold]

Suboxone can be just as bad as heroin. It's dependent on the person and their makeup. I've had friends in far worse shape from subs verses when they were on H. Because their families and wives thought that it was a "treatment" med. and in some cases it is. But a majority of the time those individuals just become equally or more so addicted to that drug.

In worse shape how? Please explain? The only answer is that they either weren't very bad heroin addicts...or they were abusing their buprenorphine prescription by taking it all before they could fill their next script and then going into withdrawal. If so, that is 100% their own fault.

You see, bup has minimal ill-health effects...unlike heroin. It does not lead to emotional-mental instability...unlike heroin. It does not result in risky, illegal drug-seeking behaviors...unlike heroin. Of course, this is all assuming that the drug is being used " as directed". When it is it help normalize lives. It doesn't destroy them like heroin use does.

Unfortunately, some people who have scripts for bup don't really want to stop getting high, so they abuse it, run out before they can full their next script...and then their life turns into a mess. Because Bup withdrawal can last 2 weeks, no wonder their lives are a wreck. If they actually wanted to improve their life, they would use the drug as directed, not inject it, and get well.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Mike - thanks for sharing your personal story. I would like to add though, and share from personal experience, that many who are in a 12 step program who actually LIVE the program, do not feel that it is a constant struggle.
I fully realize that but it usually takes at least a year just to get past the constant struggle...and generally 2-3 years before they really start pulling their lives together...and that is assuming they are actually working the program they way they are supposed to. This doesn't count all the MANY people who relapse at the 1-2 year point.

Many in this respect do not feel they are a slave to their recovery.
But they are in terms of time investment, especially the first few years. The time investment is massive and the struggle intense.

These people have awakened spiritually and view ongoing recovery as ongoing spiritual enlightenment.
Some have...most haven't...and since you have experience with the program, you know that the percentage of people who walk through those doors who actually recover is very low. There is one reason for this...because it is extremely difficult and requires immense sacrifice and struggle...for a long-time. Thus, most fail.

We don't need AA/NA to find "spiritual enlightenment".

I find that through recovery I have gained so much more spiritually than I have had I not needed to go that route. Now, there are certainly very many people who do appear to be working a program and go to meeting after meeting but they still struggle with their addiction. These are those (including myself in the past) who have failed to gain the level of honesty, open-mindedness, and willingness needed to make spiritual progress.
It's not that simple. One thing the program often ignores is that DAMAGE that can be and often is done to the brain through long-term addiction. In this sense, not all drugs are the same. Some people incur life-long damage...and no amount of spiritual enlightenment will take away those consequences...and it is specifically those consequences that make the struggle so hard...and long-lasting.

Using medication to remove the symptoms of that damage is often all it takes to put people on the right path...and make it EASIER to gain "spiritual enlightenment" (I am not going to get into what that means, as it means something different to different people). Because they are no longer struggling all the time, they can put more time and effort into those things that help their life move forward. Even most of the long-timers in the program will admit that they are no more spiritually enlightened than any other group of people...and truth be told, AA/NA is loaded with more mentally-emotionally sick people than basically any other group. Few people from the program really go on to make the most of their life. Few attain the success we see non-addicts attaining...and few attain the level of "spiritual enlightenment" that many others do. By and large addicts are the sickest of the sick.

I found that the more time I spent around sick people whose focus was on trying not to use, the more it brought me down...and the less likely I was to achieve anything myself. I needed to step away and surround myself with non-addicts...healthy people...successful people...so that I would be more likely to become like them. You become the company you keep, the saying goes...and it is true more often than not.

I am only sharing this because while you have your own personal experience and journey, I know that for many simply taking a maintenance drug or other substance may not be enough.
You're absolutely right...it is not enough for many. I fully understand that many addicts have become so spiritually dilapidated they they NEED to work a program, or else their character flaws will keep leading them right back to addiction, regardless of whether they use bup or not. Because of this the program can be immensely helpful.

To each his own, no doubt, but with that some may need a 12 step program and may benefit from it - others, like yourself as you have suggested, may not.
I couldn't agree more. My point wasn't to denounce the program, or judge those who are in it, but simply to defend an alternate course of dealing with the physical damage that opioids do to the brain.

For me, suboxone was never enough for me, I need to apply a spiritual program of recovery in order to not be a slave to addiction (with or without the use of drugs).
I respect that...and I also believe that a pill" is not enough to make an addict well. It may be enough to keep him clean, but not necessarily make him well. Whether someone is engaged in the "program" or not, every addict needs to work on his character flaws (everyone should be in reality).

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[laxfan24]

It's common sense that someone isn't technically "clean" when using buprenorphine, but it's not really about being "clean". It is about the person's quality of life. After all, isn't that the WHOLE reason people get clean from drugs like heroin--to regain their former quality of life? Yes...it is. To quote the AA Big Book, addiction is a problem for one main reason..."because their lives have become unmanageable".

So, if Bup helps the individual regain manageability...and their life is better with it than without it, isn't that what we are all trying to accomplish? Isn't that the whole point of being "clean". Yes...yes it is.

If that means not using Bup...great, but if it means someone needs to use it, well, that's fine too. Whatever it takes to regain their former quality of life. In your case, you do better without it, but there are many others who have gone off Bup for years and then realized their life was better with it, so they went back on.

You are entitled to your opinion, but there is no denying that many peoples' lives are better with Bup. I am one of them. My life has never been better. I have never been healthier. I have never been more mentally and emotionally sound. I have never been more successful. It's worked miracles for me. Even after 5 years of being completely clean (before Bup), my life SUCKED. I was constantly depressed...constantly had insomnia...and always had this internal feeling of things being "off". I never felt well, despite taking every measure I could think of to restore normal functioning.

Once I went on Bup (after 5 years of being clean), my life changed for the better in every way. No more cravings for ANY opioid. No more depression...no more insomnia...more more "off" feeling. I am happy and content and I cannot tell I even use Bup anymore. my brain adapted to the drug many years ago, yet all of its benefits are still present.

I cannot even begin to tell you how many people I saw in AA/NA who were still struggling with addiction and its long-term consequences even after years of being clean. For these people, staying clean meant becoming a slave to their recovery. They constantly had to go to meetings, constantly be involved in support groups, constantly work 12 step programs, constantly meet wit their sponsor...and it was still a constant struggle.

Guess what? I did all that for 5 years...all of it...and I realized that I had become a slave to recovery. It required constant work. I had to depend on all of the things mentioned above just to stay clean...and yet I was still unwell because my brain's functioning never normalized. To be honest, I don't think it ever was normal...because I feel better and happier now than before I ever used a single opioid. Staying clean without Bup was a constant battle...and for what? So I could give up a life of hardship for a life of sacrifice?

I bypassed all of that hardship and sacrifice with a single pill...and my life is infinitely better because of it. I no longer have to call people at 2 am saying I am struggling not to use. I don't have to go to NA meeting 5 days a week. I don't have to sit down with sponsors. I don't have to go to support groups.


My life is actually normal now. The only downside is that I am now a slave to a pill, but I would rather be a slave to a pill that causes my life no problems and only makes it better...than endure life a life of constant struggle and sacrifice. That is a trade-off I was happy to make and anytime the topic of buprenorphine and my addiction comes up, I always tell people that it saved my life.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wants to go the AA/NA, sponsor, support group, insomnia, depression, pain and sacrifice route...but neither should anyone have a problem with those who choose another path. Even recovery groups are now finally starting to accept people who use buprenorphine as being in active recovery...because they were forced to accept that these people's lives are now manageable again...and that's the whole point of recovery. Experience is bearing this out every day in the real-world.

I'm sorry you had that experience in recovery. My experience has been the exact opposite. I am so grateful to have found the 12 steps and AA. I have never felt like a "slave" to recovery. AA absolutely saved my life and has given me a forum to become a better human being. As I understand alcoholism/addiction the bottle and the drugs are only a symptom of the disease and it IS a disease. Physical sobriety came quickly for me, most people trip up because they don't want to work on emotional sobriety and rely on a spiritual solution. The more I rely on that solution the more free I become. Meeting attendance and sponsoring guys had never gotten in the way of my life, it's only enriched it. What an honor to participate in saving someone's life. My "normie" friends always remark how big and full my life is. I find people "struggle" in 12 step programs because they simply don't want to do the work, and it is WORK, but the payoff is HUGE. I've been able to recover from a Heroin addiction, an abusive dysfunctional childhood, many character defects. It's a miracle in my opinion. Lastly learning to be of service to others is a great trait to have. I was such a selfish prick before recovery, I'm always shocked I had friends growing up. I'm not judging your experience, I just wanted to share a successful and happy experience in recovery.