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watson test cyp 200 and hrt...

Maldorf, I am very empathetic to your situation, and I'm glad you are here to share your experiences with us...but it always gets me when you make blanket statements. I have been on 300mg weekly (prescribed by doc) for over 2 years now...my levels usually come in around 1200...which I realize is on the high end, but nowhere near this 2-3x normal I keep hearing. In addition to this my hemoglobin and hematocrit are actually low not on the low end of normal, but outside of the norm on the low side. I say all this to say, drugs/medications affect us all differently. Whenever you say it's "always this way" you are usually wrong. Another example...my estradiol after being off all 'supps' for 2 years was 50...with a total T in the low 300's...at 31!

Well, honestly a test level of 1200 is out of the normal range because most consider the upper limit to be 1000 ng/dl. If you look at the research, the average for someone your age is about 670. So you are about 2x the average male and so I wouldnt really call your level normal. Youre on 300 mg/wk, can you imagine how high it would be on 400 mg? If the ratios stay the same your blood level would be 1600 on 400 mg/wk. This article actually says healthy men range from 250-850. Your level is way outside of that norm.
As far as the hemoglobin and hematocrit, yeah we all are affected differently. I think though if you were to take a survey you would find a very great number of us on here that have issues with it while on androgens. It is much better to be safe than sorry. One cannot assume that they will not have issues with hgb/hct and it is much more desireable to start at a low dose and work your way up. The thing is, many of the guys on here are either crusing or doing their own HRT without a doctors advice and are just having the tests run on their own at most, some dont even test. Caution needs to be used.

**broken link removed**
 
a key part in that article

"But... this is not necessarily a healthy range! Reference ranges aren't typically set by what is healthy and what is not. They are set by where 95% of the population lies.'
 
a key part in that article

"But... this is not necessarily a healthy range! Reference ranges aren't typically set by what is healthy and what is not. They are set by where 95% of the population lies.'


Of course ,how else would or could you do it? that is done in healthcare across the board on all parts and systems of the body. By using lots of human beings.You throw out a certain percentage of the highs and lows and get a median number as a guideline.

So lets use your 95%(I cant confirm nor dispute your number.I don't know) as a number they use as a reference.That makes sense to me.If your a human being and 95% of HEALTHY human beings have these numbers,how are you concluding that isn't the HEALTHY range?
 
Of course ,how else would or could you do it? that is done in healthcare across the board on all parts and systems of the body. By using lots of human beings.You throw out a certain percentage of the highs and lows and get a median number as a guideline.

So lets use your 95%(I cant confirm nor dispute your number.I don't know) as a number they use as a reference.That makes sense to me.If your a human being and 95% of HEALTHY human beings have these numbers,how are you concluding that isn't the HEALTHY range?

Are you meaning to question the theory that more is almost always better!!? How dare you!
 
something to think about . . .

My experience and my opinion, and I will differentiate between the
two, is as follows . . . but first let me start by saying two things:

One) I wish the health care system would implement regular
testosterone starting at a very early age and continue it through
puberty and into adulthood. (The same could be said for cholesterol
levels but that is another story . . .) Without a “track record”, not
knowing what is normal for you, doctors are just playing a guessing
game regarding your individual needs.

Case in point: I have a cousin who is in his mid-forties. He is a
personal trainer as is his sister; both own a personal training
facility, and both are no stranger to weight training though by the
looks of both of them, they are nothing special to look in the
physique department, having a physique that appeals to the
general public; fit, not overweight, normal in most regards.
I say this because his testosterone levels is over one thousand,
naturally, and he has never taken a steroid in his life, would not
know a steroid if it hit him across the face like a used catfish,
that is to say his is totally ignorant on the subject.

So . . . are doctors alarmed? And do they want to lower it (how
they would do this I have zero idea), get him in a “normal range?
No. That level is perfectly normal for him.

Two) This thread and other like it rarely come to any logical
conclusion. Some say you are taking too much, your doctor being
guilty of criminal malpractice and some say you are not given
enough, your doctor being guilty of criminal malpractice. But if
you step back, there seems to be no middle ground, your individual
“needs” rarely get a second thought, our thoughts seem to be black
or white, with both sides making valid and important points in a
respectful and meaningful fashion. I applaud that. But here is where
the rub as they say, comes in . . . this is a bodybuilding forum, with
the goal for most of us to build a better than average physique,
and when it comes to legitimate HRT, we all want the most we can
get because we are bodybuilders, and that is in a nut shell is the
bottom line. Most are driven by ego or lack thereof, not legitimate
health requirements. Enough said.

For well over a year and perhaps even closer to two years, I was on
doctor prescribed Testosterone Cypionate at 400mg per week. I had
blood tests 3X per year, and was by law was required to see her once
per year (it was always a pleasure), and gave blood every 2 months like
clockwork. I did not start off at that level, it was a slow and gradual
increase over many years. We kept increasing, testing, increasing, I felt
better and better. She said . . . “I will give you what you desire until
we start we do harm.” When things start going haywire, then we stop,
re-evaluate, that being the responsible course of action. And given
enough time (this in retrospect) this was sure, at the dosage I was
taking, was sure to happen. And it did as sure a night follows day.
Infinitum.

It is my opinion that nobody, especially me, “needs” that much
testosterone. Desire it, yes, but is it needed – required by the body,
no.

Do you really think the body is designed is handle, metabolize, call it
what you want, that much testosterone without having it effecting
other parts, other “systems” of the body? (I actually feel the same way
about most vitamins and minerals. Do you really think your body is
equipped – resigned, to assimilate these concentrations? I can think
not. I can think of no “naturally” occurring environment or substance
that provides the concentrations that most people take on a daily
basis. And most, if not all supplements, (vitamins – mineral -- protein,
produces nothing but very expensive urine; running counter to the
claims and counter claims in the so called supplement business.)

In the dosages most people take; they exhibit nothing even close to a
supplemental dosages, they are replacement dosage and then some . . .
and good luck figuring out which is which; but I would strongly recommend
earring on the conservative side until you know your ass from a hole in
ground and you do not needlessly start padding the pockets of folks that
are selling you a dream, that in 99.999% of the cases, you will never
come fruition despite all the drugs and so called supplements you cram into
your body. Sad but true I’m afraid to say . . . I have been there done that,
got the Tee short, with the results coming nowhere close to the hype, not
much else despite the promises and false claims made by those that are in
love with nothing more, nor less, than you hip
pocket.

Steroids and progressive weight training are quite literally a miracle when
it comes to making a meaningful change in your physique, with very little
in both departments being required to make said change. Yes, it is all too
obvious that steroids work, make no mistake about . . . perhaps too well in
my opinion, much like lifting weights, if given half a chance, are capable of
producing unbelievable results, if given half a choice and are not impatient
like I am. But sadly, both have the ability to be abused to the point where
the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages in many cases.

Do the best with what you have and be happy with it despite you dreams and
what you consider your ultimate potential for success, such success in body-
building being realized and being obvious in a relatively short period of time,
not twenty years of beating your head against a wall with the blood streaming
down you face, blinding you and distorting yourself image, trying to be
something you will never be, the game being one largely owned by genetics,
who your Mon and Dad are for example.

The excessive intake of vitamins – minerals – protein, etc. Simply put . .
it tells my simple mind that you have zero confidence in your diet
and your ability to choose / manipulate, naturally occurring food sources
that promote health and wellbeing. To think and believe otherwise is a
folly. I have observed too many examples of amazing physiques around
the world in very poor, impoverished countries (mostly Africa) that prove
otherwise . . . you won’t die round if you are born to die square.

Many are fond of making the argument that the foods now-a-days
do not have the same nutritionally quality / substance that they once
did . . . to which I say hogwash . . . people are not dying in this country
from malnutrition and vitamin deficiencies, many are dying from excesses
(sound familiar?), mostly from heart disease and too much food, both
of which are under their direct control.

It is not an “availability” problem, is one of distribution (though that is the
case globally, but not in developed nations) . . . it is one of choice;
with diet, in my opinion, being far more important if you are all interested
in health and longevity, which are ultimately, in the long run, far more
important than how you look. And if you think otherwise, just ask anybody
who has endured a “biological” set-back that was not under their direct
control. In that case, I think most, if not all of those people would like to
have the option of un-doing and or re-doing their previous reckless behavior
which has now come back to haunt them. But sadly, that is not an option
is this day and age.

So . . . do what you like, think what you may, it makes no matter to me;
I wish everybody on the great planet Earth nothing but the best, but . . .
sometimes it pays to look before you leap and if you are looking to fulfill
your fantasies in bodybuilding which I never did, despite my best efforts,
despite “steroids,” which I have nothing bad to say if used responsibility,
and placing no burden on society. So regardless of how much control
you think you may have over your body and your ability to control its
ultimate appearance, you are like dust in the wind . . . some have it and
some don’t.

Case in point. I just shot the stills for three TV advertisements of America-
-On-Line (AOL) to be televised nationally shortly, and in one of the spots they
had a tall, dark and handsome young man from NY / LA; an underwear model.
He was tall, lean, young and fit, had great abs and had all, and I mean all
the women on the set hearts-a-throb, literally their jaws would collectively
hit the floor when he gave then that “look.” In my wildest dreams I never
would have garnered that much attention regardless of how many tons of
pig iron I lifted or how much or little I ate. He had “something” as they say,
and that something is what we all I expect are training for in one form or
another. So in this case I’ll stick with the winner, having tried and failed
miserably at just about everything else thank you very much.

After this very blatant example of iconic male beauty as understood by the
marketing people in multi-million dollar marketing campaigns, if one has half
a brain, it is inevitable that the confrontation of your aspirations will occur . . .
who am I am why am I lifting weights . . . for beauty, for health, self-image /
esteem, to attract others, personal or professional goals, whatever. Personally,
I think most men body build to attract the attention and (misplaced) respect
of other men, with little or no consideration towards the opposite sex. Sure
you think that women like big muscles, and yes some do, but the vast
majority of women do not, could care less how big your arms are or how
much you can bench press. And somebody obsessed with these aspirations,
will attract a very, very small minority of like-minded individuals; those people
being about as rare as saber tooth tigers in New Your City.

Find your place in the sun and shine is all I can say. And more power to that
place in the sun if you can find it. Most good actresses and actors gravitate
towards the sun (girasole), the “light” I have noticed, it seems to be instinctual,
they are unable to resist the attraction of turning towards it, and I have
worked with the some of the best.

A wise man (Phil?) once said . . . you are only as big as your dosage. But if
if you think any different, just get off and tell me, show me, how great you
look. A shadow of your former self will be most like it . . . that is what you
will see, and with zero proof to the contrary. I would love some somebody,
anybody, to prove me wrong.

So, in closing . . . noodling with your HRT dosages is not going to make one damn
bit of difference where you stand on stage if that is your goal. But it does have
the potential to make significant difference in how you look, and feel, and your
general overall health. Enjoy what you can get, make it right for you, and have
fun with it as I won’t last forever. And while you are at it, do no harm as it may
just come back to haunt you, if you live long enough, and when your options
are less than optimal.

PS. I have written extensively about my HRT experiences here, both good and bad,
posted blood tests, fotos, etc., all being available to anybody who uses will take
the time to use the search function. But after reading this long winded diatribe,
I can understand anybody not wanting to do so . . .
 
Good post Alfresco:)

You really put some thought into your posts.
 
Alfresco's words

I agree, great post! You're a writer as well as a photographer. I don't think anyone could have said it better. It is good to have people on here that have experienced life so that they can offer younger guys advice. Lots of wisdom in your post.
 

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