Weird reactions to DHT derivative

[phoenix2]

Anyone has this weird reactions to DHT derivative (proviron, masteron) in terms of E2 like me?
I've tried pharma proviron, different brands of masteron (propionate and enanthate) and everytime i get the same reactions. My free test goes off the charts and it's impossible for me to manage E2. Everything that lowers or binds to SHBG makes my estrogens go crazy. Even aromasin, in the first days, before lowering my E2, it increases them, then after a while they drop.
It seems crazy, but i can't run masteron with test or i get exacerbated estrogenic effects (anxiety, gyno, crazy mood swings, paranoia, water retention, dead dick). The shorter the ester, the worst the sides.
I've tried pinning ed low dose test and masteron propionate (20 mg of each) but i doesn't work. And seems that AIs make the situation worse.
Seems like my body doesn't tolerate sudden spike of free androgens.
Anyone like me?

 

[Harry1]

Anyone has this weird reactions to DHT derivative (proviron, masteron) in terms of E2 like me?
I've tried pharma proviron, different brands of masteron (propionate and enanthate) and everytime i get the same reactions. My free test goes off the charts and it's impossible for me to manage E2. Everything that lowers or binds to SHBG makes my estrogens go crazy. Even aromasin, in the first days, before lowering my E2, it increases them, then after a while they drop.
It seems crazy, but i can't run masteron with test or i get exacerbated estrogenic effects (anxiety, gyno, crazy mood swings, paranoia, water retention, dead dick). The shorter the ester, the worst the sides.
I've tried pinning ed low dose test and masteron propionate (20 mg of each) but i doesn't work. And seems that AIs make the situation worse.
Seems like my body doesn't tolerate sudden spike of free androgens.
Anyone like me?

When i used test prop i got the "test flu" each time i injected. I also ran some proviron and vars, i was sat relaxing and my heart rate was 107bpm which i put down to anxiety, i dropped the test prop and used test E and since been fine. I would agree that some fast acting compounds can cause such issues.
The only one i noticed is the increased anxiety, everything else seemed fine

 

[Crazy_jay]

Yes, I have similar issues. It's been a long road and I think I'm making some headway but I still don't have it fully sorted out, so I can't speak in absolute but I think for me, it comes down to insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is linked to low estrogen and low shbg. I believe I had over used ai's to the point that I developed Insulin resistance. Lab work for estrogen always looked good but several years ago, seemed nobody was using the sensitive estradiol test, just the standard eclia. Seems lots of guys will have a higher eclia score than lc ms ms. I've also recently learned that biotin messes with eclia tests for several different hormones to which my multi vitamin has a decent amount of biotin.

After several years of issues, I switched to test u. Things only got worse. I seemed to feel as though I either had high estrogen or take an ai have low estrogen. I don't think my test levels were peaking high enough, so it was more so low t issues (I have no blood work to back those statements as most this time frame is covid times, so I didn't mess with blood work).

I ditched test u about a month ago, am back on test cyp and now figuring out my ai. Recently crashed my e2, now few days removed from ai and I'm starting to feel better than I have in years.

Insulin resistance/pre diabetes symptoms, thick nails, curled nails, ridges in nails, dry skin in groin area, dry skin on feet along with water blisters and cracks in creases of toes. Worse after drinking alcohol. Tiredness after eating. Dry hair(thats possibly from low t or low e, it's softening now). Water retention/fat gain in lower abdomen and in face. Muscle cramping, really bad for entire day in whatever muscles I worked that day. Lack of muscle pump.

Pretty much all steroids at any dose gives me issues. Prior to Insulin resistance and known low shbg, there were things I could run that I no longer can.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[MasteroniPepperoni]

I believe it's due to the lowering of shgb allowing for more free test to be aromatized

 

[phoenix2]

Yes, I have similar issues. It's been a long road and I think I'm making some headway but I still don't have it fully sorted out, so I can't speak in absolute but I think for me, it comes down to insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is linked to low estrogen and low shbg. I believe I had over used ai's to the point that I developed Insulin resistance. Lab work for estrogen always looked good but several years ago, seemed nobody was using the sensitive estradiol test, just the standard eclia. Seems lots of guys will have a higher eclia score than lc ms ms. I've also recently learned that biotin messes with eclia tests for several different hormones to which my multi vitamin has a decent amount of biotin.

After several years of issues, I switched to test u. Things only got worse. I seemed to feel as though I either had high estrogen or take an ai have low estrogen. I don't think my test levels were peaking high enough, so it was more so low t issues (I have no blood work to back those statements as most this time frame is covid times, so I didn't mess with blood work).

I ditched test u about a month ago, am back on test cyp and now figuring out my ai. Recently crashed my e2, now few days removed from ai and I'm starting to feel better than I have in years.

Insulin resistance/pre diabetes symptoms, thick nails, curled nails, ridges in nails, dry skin in groin area, dry skin on feet along with water blisters and cracks in creases of toes. Worse after drinking alcohol. Tiredness after eating. Dry hair(thats possibly from low t or low e, it's softening now). Water retention/fat gain in lower abdomen and in face. Muscle cramping, really bad for entire day in whatever muscles I worked that day. Lack of muscle pump.

Pretty much all steroids at any dose gives me issues. Prior to Insulin resistance and known low shbg, there were things I could run that I no longer can.

Sorry for the long post.

Yeah, i remember you having a similar situation of mine.
I don't think i'm insulin resistant. Bloods never showed signs of IR, nor i get tired after meals. I stay lean year round (8-9% bodyfat) and i do shitload of cardio year round. I don't gain lots of fat easily even on high carbs (in the past yes, of course) but i've abused the shit out of aromatase inhibitors for the panick of gyno (i already have pubertal gyno). And it seems that AI made the situation worse. I have a very weird reactions to aromatase inhibitors, seems like they act more on test boosting than estrogens lowering. Tried it so many times that i can write a book about. If i take a whole letrozole tab, within hours i get fuller, feel very good, then my nipples become sensitive and swollen and i put a lot of water in my face and midsection.
If i take 1/4 of letro pill, i get less "test boosting" effects and more antiestrogenic ones (dry joints and so on). With aromasin is even worse because it lowers shbgs by itself. Couple those weird effects with a DHT like proviron or masteron and it's a roller coast to hell.
Now i'm going to try a sort of "reset" from AIs, running masteron only for a while (done it in the past and felt pretty good).
Then i will reintroduce test without an AI for a while and see what happens.
Raloxifene does jack shit for my gyno, tamoxifen works but makes me feel like shit.
I'm lucky that i can get SERMs, AIs, proviron and test straight from pharmacy. So i know what i'm really putting in my body.

 

[Crazy_jay]

Yeah, i remember you having a similar situation of mine.
I don't think i'm insulin resistant. Bloods never showed signs of IR, nor i get tired after meals. I stay lean year round (8-9% bodyfat) and i do shitload of cardio year round. I don't gain lots of fat easily even on high carbs (in the past yes, of course) but i've abused the shit out of aromatase inhibitors for the panick of gyno (i already have pubertal gyno). And it seems that AI made the situation worse. I have a very weird reactions to aromatase inhibitors, seems like they act more on test boosting than estrogens lowering. Tried it so many times that i can write a book about. If i take a whole letrozole tab, within hours i get fuller, feel very good, then my nipples become sensitive and swollen and i put a lot of water in my face and midsection.
If i take 1/4 of letro pill, i get less "test boosting" effects and more antiestrogenic ones (dry joints and so on). With aromasin is even worse because it lowers shbgs by itself. Couple those weird effects with a DHT like proviron or masteron and it's a roller coast to hell.
Now i'm going to try a sort of "reset" from AIs, running masteron only for a while (done it in the past and felt pretty good).
Then i will reintroduce test without an AI for a while and see what happens.
Raloxifene does jack shit for my gyno, tamoxifen works but makes me feel like shit.
I'm lucky that i can get SERMs, AIs, proviron and test straight from pharmacy. So i know what i'm really putting in my body.

All the same issues, I've just got insulin resistance added to them. If I eat super strict diet, I lean out quick and ir seems to disappear but can't have anything dirty, pretty much nothing or I'll balloon up.

I've decided to toy around with deca as I'm not certain it's so much an estrogen issue as much as a high dht and low shbg issue. Deca low estrogen conversion rate and lack of conversion to dht seems to be a good supplement to test, allowing for lower test doses and hopefully no ai to allow shbg to raise. About all I got left in the think tank after years of trying to sort this out.

 

[phoenix2]

All the same issues, I've just got insulin resistance added to them. If I eat super strict diet, I lean out quick and ir seems to disappear but can't have anything dirty, pretty much nothing or I'll balloon up.

I've decided to toy around with deca as I'm not certain it's so much an estrogen issue as much as a high dht and low shbg issue. Deca low estrogen conversion rate and lack of conversion to dht seems to be a good supplement to test, allowing for lower test doses and hopefully no ai to allow shbg to raise. About all I got left in the think tank after years of trying to sort this out.

Yes, think about it.
When you take an AI, the first thing that happens is prevention of further conversion of test into estradiol. This cause an increase of test, DHT and free test (because aromatase is blocked) but the reduction of serum estradiol comes later, after a while, days, because is the liver that clean up the body from estradiol and it takes time. With low SHBG and high sensitivity to AIs, when you take an AI you get a sudden spike o free test and a sudden conversion of it to free estradiol. At first you feel good, because you get a better androgen to estrogen ratio. Then, later in the day, you get mixed sides of high DHT plus high (free) estradiol, such aggression, anxiety, mood swings, nipple soreness, water retention (but weirdly feeling of dehydration at the same time). And if you add a DHT like masteron or proviron, that don't lower SHBG, they BIND them with great affinity instead, it's a disaster.

 

[Crazy_jay]

Yes, think about it.
When you take an AI, the first thing that happens is prevention of further conversion of test into estradiol. This cause an increase of test, DHT and free test (because aromatase is blocked) but the reduction of serum estradiol comes later, after a while, days, because is the liver that clean up the body from estradiol and it takes time. With low SHBG and high sensitivity to AIs, when you take an AI you get a sudden spike o free test and a sudden conversion of it to free estradiol. At first you feel good, because you get a better androgen to estrogen ratio. Then, later in the day, you get mixed sides of high DHT plus high (free) estradiol, such aggression, anxiety, mood swings, nipple soreness, water retention (but weirdly feeling of dehydration at the same time). And if you add a DHT like masteron or proviron, that don't lower SHBG, they BIND them with great affinity instead, it's a disaster.

What are we to do? I've always felt shbg was the culprit. I've read numerous accounts of people stopping trt because they have low shbg and can't get things squared away. They chose low t over trt because they feel better and better is a huge over statement.

I've tried restarting my hpta twice use dr scally's protocol. Nolvadex, clomid, aromasin, and hcg. 5 weeks in, estradiol undetectable and test levels bottomed out in the 60's. Other than weakness, no physical endurance, and lack of sex drive, I actually felt "better" than trt dose of test. Lost over 20 lbs, no longer needed daily naps, less brain fog, but not acceptable way to feel every day.

Bloated, water logged, and dehydrated, story of my life. Throw in a little var or winstrol, look out because my aggression and mood swings are terrible. Little things will set me off make my blood boil and while I have an attitude problem, I'm generally laid back because I don't like confrontation.

Another thing that I think happens, touching on what you said, is that ai or even dht steroid shoots free test up along with estradiol, requiring a very low test dose but discontinue the ai and let estrogen rise and possibly shbg rise and all the sudden that low dose test is no longer enough test because free test drops and all the sudden test to estrogen ratio is off.

My test dose is a little elevated right now as I just went back to test cyp from test u and I like to front load a little, also tanked my estrogen but I plan to try and settle in at something like 100mg test cyp and 100 or 200mg deca/week split 2x.

150mg test cyp puts me in the low 700s.

 

[phoenix2]

What are we to do? I've always felt shbg was the culprit. I've read numerous accounts of people stopping trt because they have low shbg and can't get things squared away. They chose low t over trt because they feel better and better is a huge over statement.

I've tried restarting my hpta twice use dr scally's protocol. Nolvadex, clomid, aromasin, and hcg. 5 weeks in, estradiol undetectable and test levels bottomed out in the 60's. Other than weakness, no physical endurance, and lack of sex drive, I actually felt "better" than trt dose of test. Lost over 20 lbs, no longer needed daily naps, less brain fog, but not acceptable way to feel every day.

Bloated, water logged, and dehydrated, story of my life. Throw in a little var or winstrol, look out because my aggression and mood swings are terrible. Little things will set me off make my blood boil and while I have an attitude problem, I'm generally laid back because I don't like confrontation.

Another thing that I think happens, touching on what you said, is that ai or even dht steroid shoots free test up along with estradiol, requiring a very low test dose but discontinue the ai and let estrogen rise and possibly shbg rise and all the sudden that low dose test is no longer enough test because free test drops and all the sudden test to estrogen ratio is off.

My test dose is a little elevated right now as I just went back to test cyp from test u and I like to front load a little, also tanked my estrogen but I plan to try and settle in at something like 100mg test cyp and 100 or 200mg deca/week split 2x.

150mg test cyp puts me in the low 700s.

You have just described me.
Var, tbol, win, everything throws off the equilibrium and i get crazy mood swings and gyno. Yes, adding a non aromatizable androgen to a given amount of test and AI, make my gyno flares.
Within half an hour of taking 25 mg of proviron, my nipples start to hurt and swell. Then comes mood swings (happiness, irritability or depression) and water retention.
SHBG the only culprit? I don't know, because i've seen many blood works of other people who run higher AAS dosage then me, and everyone of them has low single digit SHBG and no one has the same problems i have.
When i first started taking steroids (test), i had very high SHBG and with 250 mg of test per week (no AI) my free test was just above the top of the range, my e2 79 pg/ml but i had not a single high e2 side.

Have you ever taken letrozole as an AI?

I remember this experiment that i did when i was still natty.
In attempt to reverse my old pubertal gyno, i ran a "letro only cycle".
I started with 2.5 mg eod. In the first week i felt like a was on test, energies, wellbeing, strenght, muscle fullness, libido sky high.
Then the second week everything started to go in the opposite way. I felt high e2 sides, water retention but feeling of dehydration at same time, depression, crazy mood swings, hot flashes and so on.
I dropped letro to 1/4 of tab eod. Bam, water retention disappeared and i no longer had high E2 sides. It's crazy. You have to try it to believe it.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

What's your testosterone dose?

Are you taking nandrolone? Even 100 mgs

 

[phoenix2]

What's your testosterone dose?

Are you taking nandrolone? Even 100 mgs

I was taking 200 mg of test enanthate per week, divided in two shots of 100 every third day. Then i added 50 mg per day of masteron propionate and i've got crazy estrogen swings. Now i've dropped test completely since last monday. I want to try how i feel and look on masteron only, dropping every aromatase inhibitor.
No nandrolone, never taken in my life.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

I was taking 200 mg of test enanthate per week, divided in two shots of 100 every third day. Then i added 50 mg per day of masteron propionate and i've got crazy estrogen swings. Now i've dropped test completely since last monday. I want to try how i feel and look on masteron only, dropping every aromatase inhibitor.
No nandrolone, never taken in my life.

Have you aromatized , noticeably, had anxiety at 200 mgs test only before?

 

[MasteroniPepperoni]

Just curious, but are you guys on long term low carb diets? Keto?

 

[Cerberus777]

I'm in the same boat. I feel best at 25mg test a day. I take 6.25 aromastin per day. Some days I'll skip it if I feel dry. This is my daily trt.

I find adding anything I need to add it slowly.

 

[phoenix2]

Have you aromatized , noticeably, had anxiety at 200 mgs test only before?

Aromatized yes, of course. I get anxiety when i have sudden spike of free test and estradiol. Anxiety, paranoia and a spaced out feeling. Then water retention and nipples start to burn.

 

[phoenix2]

Just curious, but are you guys on long term low carb diets? Keto?

No, not at all.

 

[phoenix2]

I'm in the same boat. I feel best at 25mg test a day. I take 6.25 aromastin per day. Some days I'll skip it if I feel dry. This is my daily trt.

I find adding anything I need to add it slowly.

Tried something similar past summer but with test propionate. With 25 mg of propionate and 25 mg of proviron daily, a whole tab of pharma exemestane per day was barely enough to keep me feel good and not getting gyno.

 

[Cerberus777]

Tried something similar past summer but with test propionate. With 25 mg of propionate and 25 mg of proviron daily, a whole tab of pharma exemestane per day was barely enough to keep me feel good and not getting gyno.

Proviron would be hard. I do mast at 10mg per day. Add 10mg per week I don't need 25mg of aromastin until after 400mg of test doing it this way. 25mg prov would free up test too quickly.

 

[phoenix2]

This past summer... Here i was running 30 mg ed of test propionate, 50 of masteron propionate and 30 mg of var. At some point i had to add letro to exemestane or it was gyno and bloating every other day.

 

[phoenix2]

Proviron would be hard. I do mast at 10mg per day. Add 10mg per week I don't need 25mg of aromastin until after 400mg of test doing it this way. 25mg prov would free up test too quickly.

Proviron mg per mg is the androgen with the greatest affinity for SHBG. 4.4 times endogenous DHT. I "feel" it within minutes.