What are your gains like off cycle?

[Cornelius]

How much does age have to do with natural gains? I am 49, riddled with nerve damage from a car accident and simply can maintain but not progress without AAS.

See you're a perfect example!
I only just turned 26 and my body is healthy (I even broke my spine in 5 places last year and have come back from that with no problem).
I bet my body wouldn't respond in the same way if I was 36.

I am sorry if I offended people but for a long time I thought what many of you say to be the truth. I now realize that this is not a universal truth....

 

[Deleted member 106824]

I couldn't get on the site the last few days but I got my blood work back today.

Testosterone, Total
Before my designer steroid cycle, 8am: 454
Before my designer steroid cycle, 12pm: 350ish
6 days into my DS cycle, 12pm: 330ish
At the end of PCT, on 0.25mg arimidex EOD, 9am: 800
Last tuesday, weeks after the end of PCT, 8am: 516

Estrogen
Before DS Cycle: 159 (range for whatever units it was was <130)
6 days into DS cycle: 370 (!) (Range was <130)
At the end of my PCT, on 0.25mg arimidex EOD: 46 (range <39)
Last tuesday, weeks after the end of PCT: 16 (range <39)

So after all the pct my T is the highest I've had it measured and estrogen is surprisingly well below what it was before. I guess it worked which makes it even more confusing as to how I keep losing a little strength here and there. Hopefully on my future cycles my levels return to normal this well too.

 

[TNH]

There is no concrete evidence to support either way, but I do believe that a person can hold on to more mass than their genetic blueprint would have allowed after using AAS for a long period of time (even if they stop using at some point).
Don't get me wrong, I feel that the majority of steroid induced gains will eventually go away if you completely stop using them, but I also do not believe that you go right back to your previous genetic limit.
There are many guys on this forum that claim to be holding their current size on HRT doses now that they no longer blast or cycle. If they are telling the truth, then they most definitely have increased their genetic set point.
Some may say that HRT is still being on AAS, which is true, but if they are on true HRT that puts them in range of a healthy younger male, then I consider it being 'off cycle'. On paper it is the same as if you had restored your HPTA to its previous level of functioning, which is essentially 'natural'.

I have no problem with being on HRT the rest of my life, it is something that I think I would inquire about after age 40 even if I never touched steroids in my life before that point. Test levels drop with age regardless of whether or not a person used/abused AAS most of their life, and Test replacement is finally being acknowledged as a health benefit for older males.
I am sure there are many men out there that never used AAS or even lifted weight at all that don't mind taking a weekly shot that restores their hormones to youthful levels.

 

[AlphaMaleDawg]

Ok...so your body responds in the manner you have spoken about.
My body responds in the manner I have stated.
Every one knows that every one responds in a different manner to just about every thing.
I am just giving MY experience, now granted my genetics are probably superior to most (and lesser than others) but I will state that it wont only be my body that does this.

The mind is a very powerful thing just look up the meaning of "placebo effect".
If you have mentally decided that you will shrink to nothing once you stop you will. If you decide that you will stay very muscular, train and eat as hard as you did before, you will lose some size but you will not go back to square one.

But hey I am just a no-body on this board so don't take my word on it!
Read "paying your dues" by Dante Trudel, he has talked about going up in size and then one day just using hrt to maintain 80% of this size. Now if you're young enough you wont need hrt (such as in my case).

with all due respect, science doesn't care about your personal experience

 

[413MOFO]

cycle of oral winni?

whats up guys i want to run a oral cycle of winni im a sprinter so i need lean gains and my training has greatly incresaed dont want to loose any muscle or break down, i am tested so orals r my best bet, any adivce? would winni by its self even do anything or would it be a waste of time

 

[Tinyshrek]

Winny or anavar ran at 50-100mg Ed for 6-8 weeks would be great! Make sure you run some pct afterwards for 4 weeks like Nolva,clomid

 

[Pharm_Fed]

with all due respect, science doesn't care about your personal experience

What science are you referring to, because I've never seen any studies done on long term AAS use, much less how much size can be retained on an HRT dose after coming off. All we have to go on is anecdotal evidence like he gave. He's not the only one who has made such claims, and frankly I don't fine it that hard to believe.

 

[maldorf]

Experience from myself and friends tells me that you can maintain what you have built up on cycle by taking low dose test, but the minute you drop that and go natural you start losing. I was able to maintain what I had with little loss by taking 350 mg test/week. I know a guy that used to compete in nationals, now hes in prison, and he could maintain his large size on about 350 mg or so too.

Its not healthy though staying on that dose and essestially never getting off.

 

[Hellbilly]

Experience from myself and friends tells me that you can maintain what you have built up on cycle by taking low dose test, but the minute you drop that and go natural you start losing. I was able to maintain what I had with little loss by taking 350 mg test/week. I know a guy that used to compete in nationals, now hes in prison, and he could maintain his large size on about 350 mg or so too.

Its not healthy though staying on that dose and essestially never getting off.

Yes, once you blast yourself to a certain size, you can maintain on a lower dose for a while.

See, there are people who claim you don't need larger doses to be a certain size and use their current regiment as an example. It is a misrepresentation because they did use 2 grams, gh and insulin to achieve a certain size then through perfect diet, training, and a lower dose maintained most of it. Bodybuilding is a lot like sport fishing, full of people who embellish, avoid telling the whole truth, and flat our lie.

 

[maldorf]

Yes, once you blast yourself to a certain size, you can maintain on a lower dose for a while.

See, there are people who claim you don't need larger doses to be a certain size and use their current regiment as an example. It is a misrepresentation because they did use 2 grams, gh and insulin to achieve a certain size then through perfect diet, training, and a lower dose maintained most of it. Bodybuilding is a lot like sport fishing, full of people who embellish, avoid telling the whole truth, and flat our lie.

Well, im not sure if they are lying so much as they have forgotten what they had to do to get there. It might be simple forgetfullness or the fact that they realize now that what they did to get there wasnt healthy and they dont wish others to take the same risks they took. Once you get older you look at the world a whole lot different than you did where you were young.

Once you reach a certain size though, if you want to grow more youre going to have to go back to the higher doses. I did feel like once I dropped my doses down for a few years I was able to grow more on lower doses. Just a feeling I was getting. I never got to play it out though because I had my heart attack, game is over for me now.

 

[Aliendogstar]

Non-existent. I've hit a wall.

 

[CHAPS]

Anyone on this thread come off after being on for years and not lose all of their gains?

 

[aussiebulldog]

Anyone on this thread come off after being on for years and not lose all of their gains?

not me, but I have seen it and not only once.

do you really think that after years of training hard and gaining and maintaining size for long term , you will shrink to nothing???
it all depends on how you got there and the length of time you held it.

 

[AlphaMaleDawg]

not me, but I have seen it and not only once.

do you really think that after years of training hard and gaining and maintaining size for long term , you will shrink to nothing???
it all depends on how you got there and the length of time you held it.

100% yes. Remember those times when you were natural and got sick? You were out a week, couldn't eat anything, just lying in bed all day taking medicine? You would lose 2 months of progress just from that. Imagine if that happened after you came off everything. Without the chemicals in your body, your body will go back to the way it was due to the lack of chemical assistance. Look at Kevin Levrone and other guys that retired and stopped juicing. There was a thread on RX with pics of guys who stopped and shrunk down to nothing

 

[aussiebulldog]

100% yes. Remember those times when you were natural and got sick? You were out a week, couldn't eat anything, just lying in bed all day taking medicine? You would lose 2 months of progress just from that. Imagine if that happened after you came off everything. Without the chemicals in your body, your body will go back to the way it was due to the lack of chemical assistance. Look at Kevin Levrone and other guys that retired and stopped juicing. There was a thread on RX with pics of guys who stopped and shrunk down to nothing

you are young. and you will see that the bodies that were built on foundations will be different on long run to those built by abuse.

there is a difference,even if it seems uncomfortable for you.

 

[Deleted member 106824]

not me, but I have seen it and not only once.

do you really think that after years of training hard and gaining and maintaining size for long term , you will shrink to nothing???
it all depends on how you got there and the length of time you held it.

100% yes. Remember those times when you were natural and got sick? You were out a week, couldn't eat anything, just lying in bed all day taking medicine? You would lose 2 months of progress just from that. Imagine if that happened after you came off everything. Without the chemicals in your body, your body will go back to the way it was due to the lack of chemical assistance. Look at Kevin Levrone and other guys that retired and stopped juicing. There was a thread on RX with pics of guys who stopped and shrunk down to nothing

I of course can't speak from experience but people talk about set points all the time, whether its a body fat set point or muscular set point made by holding a given weight for a long period of time. Intuition makes me think that if you naturally hold a lean 200lb but with AAS you hold onto a lean 250 for 5-10 years your body has now been holding on to all that extra size and making necessary adaptations to do so, that when you come off there should be some increased ability to hold onto more size. Whether that comes from changes in muscle fascia, muscle memory, etc. I don't know.

 

[richiec]

100% yes. Remember those times when you were natural and got sick? You were out a week, couldn't eat anything, just lying in bed all day taking medicine? You would lose 2 months of progress just from that. Imagine if that happened after you came off everything. Without the chemicals in your body, your body will go back to the way it was due to the lack of chemical assistance. Look at Kevin Levrone and other guys that retired and stopped juicing. There was a thread on RX with pics of guys who stopped and shrunk down to nothing

AMD, lying in bed all day sick is different than coming off AAS and continuing to lift. If the person who is using continues to lift, they will lose size when they come off, yes, but they won't lose everything if they carried it for a long time/yrs. If they want to try and maintain any sort of size, they will be able to maintain a little bit, but will lose size. But they won't lose it all

 

[superman18]

Once you start to play with AAS, say goodbye to any off cycle gains. Plain and simple. There will be none.

And dont waste money on some sort of imaginary perfect PCT. It don't exist. You will shrink while off regardless of what you do.

Just keep your diet clean and maintain what you can. It's all you can do.

People sugarcoat the fuck out of this subject and I dont get it. Off = SHRINK

I would say you are wrong. I have run 3 cycles
1. Test 300 for 12 weeks
2. test 500 deca 300 8 weeks
3. test 600 12 weeks
At this time my PR's for 1RM were Bench: 315, Deadlift:405, Squat 365

I have been juice free for about 7 months now. Ive lost a little bit of size but I am still improving quite nicely. I eat 2-3 small meals a day.
I am stronger now than I have been on juice.
My PR's are of following.
Bench: still 315 but x2 reps
Deadlift: 425 X5!
Squat: 365 X 12!

 

[jay_dub]

I would say you are wrong. I have run 3 cycles
1. Test 300 for 12 weeks
2. test 500 deca 300 8 weeks
3. test 600 12 weeks
At this time my PR's for 1RM were Bench: 315, Deadlift:405, Squat 365

I have been juice free for about 7 months now. Ive lost a little bit of size but I am still improving quite nicely. I eat 2-3 small meals a day.
I am stronger now than I have been on juice.
My PR's are of following.
Bench: still 315 but x2 reps
Deadlift: 425 X5!
Squat: 365 X 12!

Strength and size are two different things here bro. I said you will shrink. I never said anything about strength.

You said you lost size, so you are confirming with what I said in my post.

You can twist things around, talk about weight, size etc. But you will NEVER be as big and LEAN as you were while taking drugs. Never. If you're the same weight or bigger, then either:

A. You are fatter

or

B. You completely fucked up while you were on cycle and didnt utilize the hormones like you should have


I know plenty of guys who are stronger than me that dont blast drugs like I have. Some even claim natty. But they're also fat as hell

 

[superman18]

Your trying to put two different points in one. You said you wont make any gains off cycle....I have increased my strength and my legs and arms grew.( I weigh much less than I did on cycle)

About losing size, well, on juice you gain water, glycogen, and fat. So, coming off, i dont see why you wouldnt. I know some Big and Lean guys who are natural but for us joe's we need the juice to be Big and Lean. In that aspect I agree that supplemental hormones do make you look more of a bodybuilder.