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What happened to just using test?

I would respectfully disagree with this point. It's very hard to crash your Estrogen levels on Exemestane (Aromasin) as long as you stay below 25mg per day. And there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that AIs have a direct effect of bone loss. However, androgens are known to downregulate Estrogen receptor signalling, so that one could make the argument that the T/E ratio should be held at a normal level. So if your test levels are 3x the upper normal, then estradiol should also be somewhat above the normal range.


Well I'll have to respectfully disagree.. I know many who have tanked their e2 on low dose aromasin..including many on this board... two years ago I was on 200mgs of test... I also took 6.25 aromasin 2 times a week... 6 weeks into my trt my blood work showed a e 2 of 15.. 6 weeks later it was 7... I know many who have lowered their e2 to unsafe levels on lower aromasin dosages.. it seems to have a accumulative effect over time.. will it do it to everyone ? No.. but it does happen more often than people realize. Now is being on higher dose test negate some of that? Sure.. and as I stated in this thread it's more about the ratio of test to estro than a estro number..

That being said the are numerous pages on the web along with studies that show bone loss with aromatase inhibitors... many take it from the mineral loss stand point.. there was also a video by a trt dr stating showing bone loss in some of his clients after stating aromatase inhibitors...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693896
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jos/2011/230671
 
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We report the first detailed study of the pharmacological effects of exemestane in male subjects. Doses of 25 and 50 mg were comparable in suppressing all circulating estrogens and had similar effects of increasing serum androstenedione and testosterone concentrations. There were 38%, 71%, and 45% decreases in estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate concentrations, respectively, after 10 d, approximately 24 h after administration of the last dose of 25 mg exemestane, coupled with 60% and 32% increases in testosterone and androstenedione concentrations. The rise in the aromatase substrates, testosterone and androstenedione, is probably secondary to substrate accumulation and/or to the feedback increase in gonadotropins caused by aromatase blockade. The 21% decrease in SHBG concentrations caused by 25 mg exemestane confirms the observation in postmenopausal women (20).

The maximum plasma concentration, time to achieve maximal concentrations and oral clearance for exemestane after oral administration of a single dose of 25 mg in the present study of males were similar to those reported for females (21–23). The terminal half-life in the present study (8.9 h) was considerably shorter than the published value of 27 h (23). The reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to a true gender dependency possibly involving the volume of distribution (lower in males than females) and plasma or tissue protein binding (respectively, higher and lower in males). This finding may also be due to the lower sensitivity of the analytical methodology used in the previous studies (14 pg/ml by HPLC/RIA) (21).

The maximal suppression evoked by exemestane at the single dose of 25 mg in the present study was similar to published results in postmenopausal women, but the time course differed (24). Evans et al. (24) reported that a single 25-mg oral dose of exemestane maximally suppressed estradiol concentrations by 72% 3 d after administration, and estradiol levels returned to baseline only 8–11 d after drug administration. In the present study maximal suppression of estradiol of 62% was observed 12 h after exemestane administration and returned to baseline 3–6 d after administration. The reason for this difference is not clear, but may be related to the shorter half-life of exemestane in males, the lower exposure to exemestane, and the higher levels of the aromatase substrates androstenedione (∼1 ng/ml in young males vs. ∼0.5 ng/ml in postmenopausal women), particularly the much higher testosterone concentrations in young males than in postmenopausal women (∼700 ng/dl vs. ∼20 ng/dl, respectively) (25). This is supported by the observation that in the 10-d studyin young males reported here, the suppression of estradiol is weaker (due to the very high levels of the precursor testosterone) than that of estrone(due to androstenedione levels not very different from those in postmenopausal women). A limited suppression of circulating estradiol (∼50%) has been reported in a similar study in young males treated with 1 mg daily anastrozole (7), a dose that reduces estradiol by 85% in postmenopausal women (23).
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88/12/5951/2661508

In this study of males, even 25mg Aromasin only decreased Estradiol by 38%. And as the authors argue, that percentage will decrease further with higher testosterone levels (such as when on cycle).
i'm not doubting your personal experience, I'm just saying this is the data on which I based the statement that it's hard to crash your Estradiol with Aromasin. Other studies regarding the detrimental effect of different Ais on IGF-1 levels are also in line with Aromasin being the safest AI to use.

This also means that the studies on females with breast cancer will not be representative of the effect of AIs on bone loss in males, especially not those who have supra-physiological test levels. As long as you keep your Estradiol in the normal range (or even preferably above it if you for example take 2g+ androgens), I don't think AIs will negatively impact bone density in otherwise healthy males.

EDIT: Just finished reading through the 2nd paper you posted. They cite this study:

PARTICIPANTS:
Participants included 69 men aged 60+ yr with borderline or low testosterone levels and hypogonadal symptoms.

INTERVENTION:
Intervention included 1 mg anastrozole daily or placebo.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Changes in gonadal steroid hormone levels, BMD, and bone turnover markers were measured.

RESULTS:
Mean serum testosterone increased from 319 +/- 93 ng/dl at baseline to 524+/-139 ng/dl at month 3 (P < 0.0001) and declined slightly to 474 +/- 145 ng/dl by 1 yr. Estradiol levels decreased from 15 +/- 4 pg/ml at baseline to 12 +/- 4 pg/ml at month 3 and then remained stable (P < 0.0001). Posterior-anterior (PA) spine BMD decreased in the anastrozole group as compared with placebo (P = 0.0014). In the anastrozole group, PA spine BMD decreased from 1.121 +/- 0.141 g/cm(2) to 1.102 +/- 0.138 g/cm(2), whereas in the placebo group, PA spine BMD increased from 1.180 +/- 0.145 g/cm(2) to 1.189 +/- 0.146 g/cm(2). Qualitatively similar, but not statistically significant, changes occurred at the other sites. Bone turnover markers were not affected by anastrozole therapy.

CONCLUSIONS:
In older men, aromatase inhibition increases testosterone levels, decreases estradiol levels, and appears to decrease BMD. Aromatase inhibition does not improve skeletal health in aging men with low or low normal testosterone levels.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19820017?dopt=AbstractPlus

So I have to admit I was wrong here. Even though normal to high AI doses (like 1mg Anastrozole)only decrease Estradiol slightly, there still seems to be a negative effect on bone density. As you say, probably by changing the T/E ratio. So AIs are not per se bad, but you gotta make sure you keep the dose low enough so that your T/E ratio doesn't become to oout of whack.
 
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Again .. I agree but the second study showed bone loss in men with close to normal estro ( elevated test levels) .. There is a study ( I'll find it) that shows that it may not be the lowering of ESTRo but the compound itself causing mineral loss..

When I ran my first test before AROMASIN my e2,was 60.. 12 weeks later it was 7.. And that was just 6.25 twice a week.. Many on here have experienced tanked e2 on trt or slightly above dosages on here..

That being said, I agree if one Is running 600 mgs of test and have very elevated e2 levels then sane dosages of aromasin or other inhibitors will probably not tank e2.. But disages need to be sane.. E2 is not, nor should it be, in normal range on supra levels .. If your blood test levels are 2000 you can not expect nor should you to have e2 in the 25 range.. It's about the ratio..
 
This is a nice rarity. A debate with links to research on the topic without name calling. There are no cucks among you two :)
 
This is a nice rarity. A debate with links to research on the topic without name calling. There are no cucks among you two :)

This is the way it should always be... Sadly it isn't always the case on these boards.. We all come here for information.. It's our passion to learn so that we can do it safer.. We are adults.. Anyone that drops to emotional name calling needs to just leave the discussion and in some instances the board.. They have already lost the debate.. State your case and state the important info you have found.. Let the members assimulate it and do what they will with the new info .. The studies are always changing and they need to be shared :cool:
 
This is a nice rarity. A debate with links to research on the topic without name calling. There are no cucks among you two :)

I agree.

A good debate must include medical data and references.
 
Well, LATS makes a very good argument and provided references that disprove my position. So there is absolutely no reason for insults from my side (I would have graciously accepted some thrown my way since I was wrong). On the contrary, I feel gratitude since I learned something new.

That being said, there are other instances where people make nonsensical arguments and where they insist on their position even though the evidence contradicts their claims. In that case, I can definitely see how people could start to get irritated and to be tempted to point out the retardation of their opponent. Good people have been banned for this :star-w:rs
 
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Per Lats post, I'm gonna try something very different bUT on the higher end.
I'll usually do 2 grams test with 700mg npp and an injectable of a standard oral.

I'm gonna try Mike Arnolds experiment kinda with npp, and low test.

2grams eq, 1 gram npp, 250mg test.
I might need info on donating blood during eq thing.
 
High test is overrated IMO. It comes with a bunch of side effects: DHT induced hair loss, prostate enlargement, gynocomastia, etc. etc.

Personally I think test should be used in small amounts as a base to keep your body working properly and safer drugs should be used for gainz. Like 250mg test/ 750mg primo for instance. Much less side effects. Or test/ EQ etc.
 
I have officially decided to never run more than 300mg of test in a blast and will only add "dry" drugs like masteron, proviron.... nothing else. the bloat face is a BAD look.

i FINALLY got off high dose test (and was running a LIL deca) and i been getting compliments. and its true my face looks MUCH better. i am no spring chic and workouts arent priority anymore nor is diet so the days of being super lean and test not affecting my bloat are over.

i wont be as big but bp should be better and i will look good to the ladies:D
-F2S
 
Per Lats post, I'm gonna try something very different bUT on the higher end.

I'll usually do 2 grams test with 700mg npp and an injectable of a standard oral.



I'm gonna try Mike Arnolds experiment kinda with npp, and low test.



2grams eq, 1 gram npp, 250mg test.

I might need info on donating blood during eq thing.



Hhmmm. This sounds like something I would like to try

But EQ just a gram n 100 oxy a day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hhmmm. This sounds like something I would like to try

But EQ just a gram n 100 oxy a day


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I felt GREAT on 200mg test + 600NPP a week. No boner issues, very little bloat compared to when I ran 500/400 test/NPP
 
I have officially decided to never run more than 300mg of test in a blast and will only add "dry" drugs like masteron, proviron.... nothing else. the bloat face is a BAD look.

i FINALLY got off high dose test (and was running a LIL deca) and i been getting compliments. and its true my face looks MUCH better. i am no spring chic and workouts arent priority anymore nor is diet so the days of being super lean and test not affecting my bloat are over.

i wont be as big but bp should be better and i will look good to the ladies:D
-F2S
Basically what I've been doing for awhile now. My blasts consist of 200mg test and 300mg npp. I have done primo in the past as well.

No orals and only blast maybe 8 weeks....then back to around 80-100 mg of Test per week.

Add in peptides if I'm looking for an extra kick before adding more "juice", do plenty of cardio......and let my diet dictate what my weight does.

Also get bloodwork done regularly as you never know where you stand without it.

My labs are the best they have ever been as I'm fighting old age!!

Sent from my LG-H871 using Tapatalk
 
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88/12/5951/2661508

In this study of males, even 25mg Aromasin only decreased Estradiol by 38%. And as the authors argue, that percentage will decrease further with higher testosterone levels (such as when on cycle).
i'm not doubting your personal experience, I'm just saying this is the data on which I based the statement that it's hard to crash your Estradiol with Aromasin. Other studies regarding the detrimental effect of different Ais on IGF-1 levels are also in line with Aromasin being the safest AI to use.

This also means that the studies on females with breast cancer will not be representative of the effect of AIs on bone loss in males, especially not those who have supra-physiological test levels. As long as you keep your Estradiol in the normal range (or even preferably above it if you for example take 2g+ androgens), I don't think AIs will negatively impact bone density in otherwise healthy males.

EDIT: Just finished reading through the 2nd paper you posted. They cite this study:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19820017?dopt=AbstractPlus

So I have to admit I was wrong here. Even though normal to high AI doses (like 1mg Anastrozole)only decrease Estradiol slightly, there still seems to be a negative effect on bone density. As you say, probably by changing the T/E ratio. So AIs are not per se bad, but you gotta make sure you keep the dose low enough so that your T/E ratio doesn't become to oout of whack.

I got hypercalcemia (high blood calcium--which means it is leaching out of bones) while running 25mg rx aromasin a day with 200mg doctor prescribed trt cyp a week. Went away when doc dropped it to 6.25mg a day.

Of course 12.5 or even 25mg might be the correct dose of you were running a higher dose of test.

You get pretty extreme fatigue when this is happening. Definitely don't feel 'right.'
 
LATS on a side note: when are the story times with LATS coming back? You always had great stories to tell, would be great if you'd start doing regular story times again!

I have a bunch that are written.. It's supposed to be pretty shitty weather tomorrow so it looks like I'll squeeze one out about a korean competitor...;)
 
I have a bunch that are written.. It's supposed to be pretty shitty weather tomorrow so it looks like I'll squeeze one out about a korean competitor...;)

Don't you dare threaten us with a good time
 
Again .. I agree but the second study showed bone loss in men with close to normal estro ( elevated test levels) .. There is a study ( I'll find it) that shows that it may not be the lowering of ESTRo but the compound itself causing mineral loss..

When I ran my first test before AROMASIN my e2,was 60.. 12 weeks later it was 7.. And that was just 6.25 twice a week.. Many on here have experienced tanked e2 on trt or slightly above dosages on here..

That being said, I agree if one Is running 600 mgs of test and have very elevated e2 levels then sane dosages of aromasin or other inhibitors will probably not tank e2.. But disages need to be sane.. E2 is not, nor should it be, in normal range on supra levels .. If your blood test levels are 2000 you can not expect nor should you to have e2 in the 25 range.. It's about the ratio..
This (crashing estro from aromasin ive also done and it blows joints kill etc)
Thats why i only use 6.5 mlg per week no matter what and on trt of 200 per week and 500 iu hcg my estro was 40 last time and i felt better at that level than i did between 15-28 estro levels

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
This (crashing estro from aromasin ive also done and it blows joints kill etc)
Thats why i only use 6.5 mlg per week no matter what and on trt of 200 per week and 500 iu hcg my estro was 40 last time and i felt better at that level than i did between 15-28 estro levels

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Yes.. And the mechanism from which AROMASIN works overtime takes its toll on estro... It may take weeks but the buildup ( not the half life as its short) of its effect will nail ESTRo hard..
 
What i need to know is if someone keeps getting high rbc's hematocrit and hemoglobin from using any amount of test is there a better way?

We are talking about test only in this thread so it mad me wonder and possibly answer as to why some dont just stick to test only any more


So with that being said is there a A different set of compounds, or stack as u guys elude to that would help gain muscle and shred as well while keeping test usage lower to avoid the rbc hemo and hematocrit issuez?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
What i need to know is if someone keeps getting high rbc's hematocrit and hemoglobin from using any amount of test is there a better way?

We are talking about test only in this thread so it mad me wonder and possibly answer as to why some dont just stick to test only any more


So with that being said is there a A different set of compounds, or stack as u guys elude to that would help gain muscle and shred as well while keeping test usage lower to avoid the rbc hemo and hematocrit issuez?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Yea me. Any amount above TRT and my HCT is sent soaring. It doesn't seem to go above 56 though. It sucks.
 

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