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What is the best way to take GH?
- Thread starter Massive G
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2005
- Messages
- 36
For mass I like post workout. Overall right now Ive been doing morning/pre-workout and post workout, seemed to help with the fatigue issue. As far as water retention it goes away for me after the first month along with the cts. I run 50 mcgs of t-4 along with it always.
Used it once @ 4ius(Serostim)ED w/ 50mcg IGF-1,10iu HumulinR PW w, added to a stack I'd stagnated on(read;been on waaay to long) of 1000mg test,600 mg anabolic(alternated every6 weeks) w/ an oral-(androgen alternated every 4 weeks)--gained 13 lbs w/ a significant bodyfat reduction(wasn't trying), incredible pumps, felt really round and pumped-awesome cycle. :st:r-wars
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2004
- Messages
- 356
Yes GH in the am works great for me too!! and slin with 10mcg of igf after workout!!
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2007
- Messages
- 908
lots of great info so far.....keep it flowing
as far as gaining mass and staying lean i have found that gh 2x a day is best... 3x if you can handle it... now gaining mass, i have found slin in the a.m. right when you wake (literally) immediatly followed by a small carb meal and a good amount of protein, most think you need 10iu of slin in a shot to do anything, not true... i will wake and do 2iu of humalog eat breakfast and then do the gh...a pwo shot of slin (2iu) directly after the workout, (like in your car or the locker room) with some simple sugars (or vitargo) and some aminos... there are countless studies of the benifits of slin and aminos together (in small doses).... when returning home from the gym i would do the gh befor your large meal....
this is the best method i have found.... i have experiemented with all the protocals on the net and this is what i have settled on.... if you can afford it run the gh on your off days as well.... i like humalog better than the humulin for a lot of reasons..... i dont really have a lot of science behind this protocal except the fact it works....
if your diet is correct you only need very small amounts of slin.... i cant belive some of the doses a lot of guys take! most of them would put me in a pine box!
also take a break from the slin every few weeks, like 2-3 weeks on and 10-14 days off.... this keeps me in check and the blood sugar is easy to estimate. in the off season i will not use slin for 6-7 months.... mainly to get my body in check... this is the time i use no gear at all....
this is the best method i have found.... i have experiemented with all the protocals on the net and this is what i have settled on.... if you can afford it run the gh on your off days as well.... i like humalog better than the humulin for a lot of reasons..... i dont really have a lot of science behind this protocal except the fact it works....
if your diet is correct you only need very small amounts of slin.... i cant belive some of the doses a lot of guys take! most of them would put me in a pine box!
also take a break from the slin every few weeks, like 2-3 weeks on and 10-14 days off.... this keeps me in check and the blood sugar is easy to estimate. in the off season i will not use slin for 6-7 months.... mainly to get my body in check... this is the time i use no gear at all....
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2007
- Messages
- 71
do you guys change your diet at all when on an HGH cycle looking for lean mass gain? Like increase carbs or protein? Does HGH give you a better sensitivity to carbs/insulin or cause an increase in protein synthesis?
- Joined
- May 2, 2005
- Messages
- 2,600
Gavins protocol for gaining mass/
Question and Answer with Gavin Kane (formerly known as Almost Pro)
In this section, I will take some of the more commonly asked questions by way of Private Mail and bring them online for everyone to benefit from.
Question 1)
Hey Gavin,
I have read all your articles on growth hormone, insulin, and finally igf, but I am still having a hard time putting all three together in a protocol for bulking. Can you outline a simple program for me, something that lists dosages, timing, and optimal use? I have done many cycles of anabolics, as well as insulin and gh, but now I am looking forward to adding in some igf to the mix. Thanks in advance for helping a guy out.
To XXXXXXX
I am happy to help you out bro as it is critical to get the timing sequence down for optimal growth. I have been personally testing different protocols with igf use, having done over 20 different cycles and timing schedules. I also have a few competitive bodybuilders and test subjects off-season testing my new protocols. I have nailed down what I feel is the best protocol at this time, though everything is subject to change as I keep researching.
For now I have found that less is more. I highly recommend using a minimal schedule for all short chain sequence peptides, which include igf, insulin and even gh. I recommend using no more than 3 days per week, 2 days is fine, but no more than 3. The reason for this is that we are trying to prevent cell over-saturation and closure. All three products should be used in a similar manner.
The protocol is as follows; inject all products post workout, preferably after training large muscle groups which cause the most glycogen depletion, hence providing faster uptake of peptides. A sample layout is to inject Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
Immediately post-workout inject 10-15iu of growth hormone IM, using a insulin pin and inject in any small muscle group such as delts, triceps, or biceps. Wait 20 minutes for the half-life clearance and conversion to igf to begin its sequence from the growth hormone and then inject a small dose of igf to create a synergistic super charge of the conversion process. I would recommend no more than 30mcg at this time. 10 minutes later you will take Humalog insulin only, and inject 5iu. I recommend starting with 5iu because Humalog has a very rapid onset and is easy to control with sugar. In conjunction with igf, you will be hyper-sensitive to insulin so start small and slowly work your way up to a maximum dose of 12iu post-workout. You will want to have around 80-100 grams of simple sugars such as dextrose and grape juice and an additional 60 grams of whey protein at the same time as your insulin. You will then eat another moderate glycemic index meal one hour after your high glycemic shake.
The reason for the high dose growth hormone is to take what would normally be your one week intake of gh and spread it out into 3 equal doses, injected pwo. This will create a truly anabolic rich environment and you will also benefit from full uptake due to your pwo depleted state.
So there is our post-workout regime, 3 days per week. Certainly you should take more than this, shouldn’t you? For most lifters, this protocol will be sufficient for growth. For someone with at least 6 months of gh use, 5 or more cycles of insulin and who no longer responds to typical igf protocols, the following regime may be followed: In addition to the above outline post-workout method, you may add additional doses of igf as well as insulin on the same day as your post-workout injection.
I would highly recommend you take 15mcg igf an additional two times per day. By taking less igf more often you will prevent cell over-saturation as well as receptor down-regulation. Creating a cell rich environment that saturates the cells infrequently will target massive cell proliferation. In addition you will take insulin 20 minutes after the igf on those 2 additional injections creating an anabolic rich environment that will last all day, 3 days per week.
For a sample protocol for someone that works out after work, I would recommend you do the following: Take 15mcg upon rising in the morning, followed by 10iu Humulin R or Humalog 20 minutes later. Immediately eat a carbohydrate rich meal with quality protein and low fat such as bananas, oatmeal and egg whites.
For lunch, take another 15mcg igf with 10iu insulin and have another moderate glycemic carbohydrate meal and protein with minimal fats. Follow the above listed pwo protocol to complete your three time injection schedule which will be used three times per week.
If you follow the outline laid out for you above to the letter, you will put on a massive amount of lean mass with a minimal amount of fat. You will need an anabolic and androgen rich environment to complete the schedule such as testosterone and tren in addition to the peptide products. T3 and T4 will not be necessary on this schedule as your thyroid levels will not be affected.
Question and Answer with Gavin Kane (formerly known as Almost Pro)
In this section, I will take some of the more commonly asked questions by way of Private Mail and bring them online for everyone to benefit from.
Question 1)
Hey Gavin,
I have read all your articles on growth hormone, insulin, and finally igf, but I am still having a hard time putting all three together in a protocol for bulking. Can you outline a simple program for me, something that lists dosages, timing, and optimal use? I have done many cycles of anabolics, as well as insulin and gh, but now I am looking forward to adding in some igf to the mix. Thanks in advance for helping a guy out.
To XXXXXXX
I am happy to help you out bro as it is critical to get the timing sequence down for optimal growth. I have been personally testing different protocols with igf use, having done over 20 different cycles and timing schedules. I also have a few competitive bodybuilders and test subjects off-season testing my new protocols. I have nailed down what I feel is the best protocol at this time, though everything is subject to change as I keep researching.
For now I have found that less is more. I highly recommend using a minimal schedule for all short chain sequence peptides, which include igf, insulin and even gh. I recommend using no more than 3 days per week, 2 days is fine, but no more than 3. The reason for this is that we are trying to prevent cell over-saturation and closure. All three products should be used in a similar manner.
The protocol is as follows; inject all products post workout, preferably after training large muscle groups which cause the most glycogen depletion, hence providing faster uptake of peptides. A sample layout is to inject Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
Immediately post-workout inject 10-15iu of growth hormone IM, using a insulin pin and inject in any small muscle group such as delts, triceps, or biceps. Wait 20 minutes for the half-life clearance and conversion to igf to begin its sequence from the growth hormone and then inject a small dose of igf to create a synergistic super charge of the conversion process. I would recommend no more than 30mcg at this time. 10 minutes later you will take Humalog insulin only, and inject 5iu. I recommend starting with 5iu because Humalog has a very rapid onset and is easy to control with sugar. In conjunction with igf, you will be hyper-sensitive to insulin so start small and slowly work your way up to a maximum dose of 12iu post-workout. You will want to have around 80-100 grams of simple sugars such as dextrose and grape juice and an additional 60 grams of whey protein at the same time as your insulin. You will then eat another moderate glycemic index meal one hour after your high glycemic shake.
The reason for the high dose growth hormone is to take what would normally be your one week intake of gh and spread it out into 3 equal doses, injected pwo. This will create a truly anabolic rich environment and you will also benefit from full uptake due to your pwo depleted state.
So there is our post-workout regime, 3 days per week. Certainly you should take more than this, shouldn’t you? For most lifters, this protocol will be sufficient for growth. For someone with at least 6 months of gh use, 5 or more cycles of insulin and who no longer responds to typical igf protocols, the following regime may be followed: In addition to the above outline post-workout method, you may add additional doses of igf as well as insulin on the same day as your post-workout injection.
I would highly recommend you take 15mcg igf an additional two times per day. By taking less igf more often you will prevent cell over-saturation as well as receptor down-regulation. Creating a cell rich environment that saturates the cells infrequently will target massive cell proliferation. In addition you will take insulin 20 minutes after the igf on those 2 additional injections creating an anabolic rich environment that will last all day, 3 days per week.
For a sample protocol for someone that works out after work, I would recommend you do the following: Take 15mcg upon rising in the morning, followed by 10iu Humulin R or Humalog 20 minutes later. Immediately eat a carbohydrate rich meal with quality protein and low fat such as bananas, oatmeal and egg whites.
For lunch, take another 15mcg igf with 10iu insulin and have another moderate glycemic carbohydrate meal and protein with minimal fats. Follow the above listed pwo protocol to complete your three time injection schedule which will be used three times per week.
If you follow the outline laid out for you above to the letter, you will put on a massive amount of lean mass with a minimal amount of fat. You will need an anabolic and androgen rich environment to complete the schedule such as testosterone and tren in addition to the peptide products. T3 and T4 will not be necessary on this schedule as your thyroid levels will not be affected.
they had mentioned above that you have to take over 20 iu to get muscle gains. I don't feel that, that is true. I think yes if you were just using g by itself then it would take a lot more then if you combined aas or slin to it. I get amazing results when i add just gh to any cycle... love the stuff!!
A ? i had does it make a difference if you spot inject gh then just doing it sub Q. would it allow any muscle growth in that specific area?
A ? i had does it make a difference if you spot inject gh then just doing it sub Q. would it allow any muscle growth in that specific area?
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2002
- Messages
- 14,418
Im with you DB...
MassiveG is one smart man and Id sure like to hear any experiences
he`d be willing to share.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 640
Yes for me its like a night and day difference, my muscles get alot fuller looking tnen the subq route
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2007
- Messages
- 908
Can you go into details...I would love to hear how you do it IV.....Doses, timing etc.
I was told by a HRT doctor that HGH and insulin cross each other out. He recommends taking it right upon waking and waiting about an hour (at least half hour) before eating.
I took 4ius/day this way for my last show and got the best results compared to when i use to take it right before eating breakfast.
I took 4ius/day this way for my last show and got the best results compared to when i use to take it right before eating breakfast.
a good deal of the studies done on hgh are administered iv.... a lot of people fail to notice this, there is debate on how doing it iv will not give you the same fat loss results, but i would beg to differ.... also the time it is active is cut short when taken i.v. as opposed to sub q from what i understand.....
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2007
- Messages
- 71
do you all experience an increase in appetite while on GH? I just started my cycle (starting real low- only 1iu because I am a small female), and the last two nights I have been waking up at 5 am absolutely famished.... like to the point where it feels like my stomach is eating my insides. I eat a large protein/fat meal every night right before I hit the sack too... could this dramatic appetite increase be a result of the GH or is that not a normal side?
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2004
- Messages
- 4,373
Sorry I let this drop I have a ton of stuff I want to say in here, but don't really have the time to go i detail. I will, I want to link some articles and well last of all tell personal experience which I wanted to see people put in here.
Remember there isn't much research with guys like us, that is people with higher metabolisms and continual breakdown and rebuilding of tissue.
A lot of things change when you take an inactive person's results as how people will react to GH-or any hormone for the matter.
The best way to gain on GH and slin is less administered the better. high doses EOD for mass or ETD are best. Long term GH use for fat loss = time and lower dose.
One pop a day is fine as well-here's an article that states it in normal people. In lifters I still say once per day is best.
Take this for what you will-
"J Endocrinol Invest. 2006 Dec;29(11):950-6.
Long-term GH treatment of GH-deficient adults: comparison between one and two daily injections.
Hoybye C, Rudling M.
Department of Endocrinology, Metabolism and Diabetology, Karolinska University Hospital, Solna, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden. [email protected]
The physiological pulsatile secretion of GH in humans might be important for the metabolic effects of GH. In the treatment of GH-deficient (GHD) patients, the most common regimen is a single sc injection at bedtime. It has not been completely established if this is the optimal mode of GH administration during long-term GH treatment. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the metabolic effects of two different GH replacement regimens comparing one to two daily injections. Eight men and six women, 42-78 yr old, with verified severe GHD, participated. Patients were matched for gender, age and body mass index (BMI) and were randomized to GH therapy (one or two injections daily) for 12 months. GH doses were individually titrated to IGF-I levels of age-matched controls. IGF-I, glucose, insulin, oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), cholesterol, triglycerides, lipoproteins, including size fractionation with fast performance liquid chromatography, BMI and body composition were analyzed. After 12 months the median GH dose was 0.45 mg (range 0.25-0.50 mg) in both groups. Body fat had decreased by 20% (p<0.05) in the group receiving one daily GH injection. There were no differences between the two treatment groups in indices of carbohydrate or lipid metabolism. The administration of GH divided into two daily doses offered no major advantage as compared to the more convenient single injection in the evening. The GH-induced reduction in body fat occurred independently from changes in serum lipids.
PMID: 17259790
---------------------------------------------------
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Mar;86(3):1222-8.
Long-term effects of continuous subcutaneous infusion versus daily subcutaneous injections of growth hormone (GH) on the insulin-like growth factor system, insulin sensitivity, body composition, and bone and lipoprotein metabolism in GH-deficient adults.
Laursen T, Gravholt CH, Heickendorff L, Drustrup J, Kappelgaard AM, Jorgensen JO, Christiansen JS.
Center for Clinical Pharmacology, Department of Pharmacology, Aarhus University, Denmark. [email protected]
It remains uncertain whether close imitation of the physiological pulsatile GH pattern determines the effects of GH treatment in humans. However, human studies have reported comparable metabolic responses to short-term constant and intermittent GH exposure. The aim of the study was to compare the metabolic effects of GH after continuous and intermittent sc delivery. In a parallel design, 14 GH-treated GH-deficient patients (mean age, 37 yr; mean body mass index, 27.4 kg/m(2)) were studied during steady state at the start of the study and after 6 months. Seven patients received daily injections (inj) in the evening as usual, and 7 received a continuous infusion (inf) of GH by means of a portable pump. The GH dose was kept unchanged before and during the study. Serum levels of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) tended to increase in the patients switched to constant infusion (from 175 +/- 36 to 209 +/- 50 microg/L), but the differences obtained during the two regimens [+34.3 (inf) vs. -11.9 (inj)] were not significant (P = 0.34). Serum levels of IGF-II (P = 0.71) and IGF-binding protein (IGFBP)-3 (P = 0.75) were identical during the two modes of treatment. Serum levels of IGFBP-1 (P = 0.72), IGFBP-2 (P = 0.34), and GH-binding protein (P = 0.75) were unaffected by treatment regimen. Serum levels of free fatty acids, reflecting lipolysis, decreased significantly (16%) in the group switched to GH infusion (difference, -99.8 vs. +5 micromol/L; P < 0.03). The GH pattern did not influence insulin sensitivity (P = 0.71) or glucose effectiveness (P = 0.15) derived from Bergman's minimal model. Similarly, the two treatment regimens had no differential impact on lipoprotein levels, bone metabolism, or body composition. In conclusion, continuous and intermittent administrations of GH for 6 months are comparable with respect to the IGF-IGFBP axis, whereas intermittent exposure may be of importance for the lipolytic effect of GH. The data on insulin sensitivity and lipoproteins suggest that constant GH exposure is as safe as intermittent GH administration."
Also the day you see me roll up my sleeve tie it off tap a vein and swab and IV GH please shoot me. Especially Chinese stuff. But hell heroin addicts survive their boiling in a spoon injections quite well.
PEACE
Remember there isn't much research with guys like us, that is people with higher metabolisms and continual breakdown and rebuilding of tissue.
A lot of things change when you take an inactive person's results as how people will react to GH-or any hormone for the matter.
The best way to gain on GH and slin is less administered the better. high doses EOD for mass or ETD are best. Long term GH use for fat loss = time and lower dose.
One pop a day is fine as well-here's an article that states it in normal people. In lifters I still say once per day is best.
Take this for what you will-
"J Endocrinol Invest. 2006 Dec;29(11):950-6.
Long-term GH treatment of GH-deficient adults: comparison between one and two daily injections.
Hoybye C, Rudling M.
Department of Endocrinology, Metabolism and Diabetology, Karolinska University Hospital, Solna, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden. [email protected]
The physiological pulsatile secretion of GH in humans might be important for the metabolic effects of GH. In the treatment of GH-deficient (GHD) patients, the most common regimen is a single sc injection at bedtime. It has not been completely established if this is the optimal mode of GH administration during long-term GH treatment. The aim of the present study was to evaluate the metabolic effects of two different GH replacement regimens comparing one to two daily injections. Eight men and six women, 42-78 yr old, with verified severe GHD, participated. Patients were matched for gender, age and body mass index (BMI) and were randomized to GH therapy (one or two injections daily) for 12 months. GH doses were individually titrated to IGF-I levels of age-matched controls. IGF-I, glucose, insulin, oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), cholesterol, triglycerides, lipoproteins, including size fractionation with fast performance liquid chromatography, BMI and body composition were analyzed. After 12 months the median GH dose was 0.45 mg (range 0.25-0.50 mg) in both groups. Body fat had decreased by 20% (p<0.05) in the group receiving one daily GH injection. There were no differences between the two treatment groups in indices of carbohydrate or lipid metabolism. The administration of GH divided into two daily doses offered no major advantage as compared to the more convenient single injection in the evening. The GH-induced reduction in body fat occurred independently from changes in serum lipids.
PMID: 17259790
---------------------------------------------------
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Mar;86(3):1222-8.
Long-term effects of continuous subcutaneous infusion versus daily subcutaneous injections of growth hormone (GH) on the insulin-like growth factor system, insulin sensitivity, body composition, and bone and lipoprotein metabolism in GH-deficient adults.
Laursen T, Gravholt CH, Heickendorff L, Drustrup J, Kappelgaard AM, Jorgensen JO, Christiansen JS.
Center for Clinical Pharmacology, Department of Pharmacology, Aarhus University, Denmark. [email protected]
It remains uncertain whether close imitation of the physiological pulsatile GH pattern determines the effects of GH treatment in humans. However, human studies have reported comparable metabolic responses to short-term constant and intermittent GH exposure. The aim of the study was to compare the metabolic effects of GH after continuous and intermittent sc delivery. In a parallel design, 14 GH-treated GH-deficient patients (mean age, 37 yr; mean body mass index, 27.4 kg/m(2)) were studied during steady state at the start of the study and after 6 months. Seven patients received daily injections (inj) in the evening as usual, and 7 received a continuous infusion (inf) of GH by means of a portable pump. The GH dose was kept unchanged before and during the study. Serum levels of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) tended to increase in the patients switched to constant infusion (from 175 +/- 36 to 209 +/- 50 microg/L), but the differences obtained during the two regimens [+34.3 (inf) vs. -11.9 (inj)] were not significant (P = 0.34). Serum levels of IGF-II (P = 0.71) and IGF-binding protein (IGFBP)-3 (P = 0.75) were identical during the two modes of treatment. Serum levels of IGFBP-1 (P = 0.72), IGFBP-2 (P = 0.34), and GH-binding protein (P = 0.75) were unaffected by treatment regimen. Serum levels of free fatty acids, reflecting lipolysis, decreased significantly (16%) in the group switched to GH infusion (difference, -99.8 vs. +5 micromol/L; P < 0.03). The GH pattern did not influence insulin sensitivity (P = 0.71) or glucose effectiveness (P = 0.15) derived from Bergman's minimal model. Similarly, the two treatment regimens had no differential impact on lipoprotein levels, bone metabolism, or body composition. In conclusion, continuous and intermittent administrations of GH for 6 months are comparable with respect to the IGF-IGFBP axis, whereas intermittent exposure may be of importance for the lipolytic effect of GH. The data on insulin sensitivity and lipoproteins suggest that constant GH exposure is as safe as intermittent GH administration."
Also the day you see me roll up my sleeve tie it off tap a vein and swab and IV GH please shoot me. Especially Chinese stuff. But hell heroin addicts survive their boiling in a spoon injections quite well.
PEACE
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2004
- Messages
- 4,373
yes that is normal-when are you taking the GH?
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