Wow I cannot even believe how much I disagree with the majority of people on this thread.
1) the "that guy over there or powerlifter is strong but he is not big comment"...... let me ask you something....if you trained with the most optimal training system handed down from god himself to get big....and you ate just enough or (even not enough) to maintain your current bodyweight (i.e. just like powerlifters who strive to get stronger but stay in weight classes) would you yourself get any bigger? No you wouldnt. So that argument holds as much water as my collander I drained pasta with last night. Show me a guy who doesnt eat enough to get muscularly bigger and Ill show you a guy who isnt getting bigger no matter how he trains!
2) Hardcore Franky is starting lifting and 6 months into lifting he is squatting 155 for 12 reps as his max effort.....he is not a very strong dude to start.
Lazy Johnny is a naturally strong kid and 6 months into lifting is squatting 365 for 10 reps.....wow thats pretty good for a kid starting out.
They are both about the same bodyweight and height but Johnny is alot stronger
4 years goes by and Franky has blasted food, supplements, steroids, and his training and is now doing 455 x 20 reps in the squat.....he has gained 300 pounds and 8 more reps on his top end squat
4 years goes by and lazy johnny blasted food supplements steroids but went by "feel" in his training and now squats 405 x 10 reps in the squat....he has gained only 40 pounds in his squat
Who do you think is going to have far more gains in leg size from when they started?!?! Franky gained 300 pounds is repping 20 reps with 455.....Johnny gained 60 pounds on his squat.....Franky's quads have grown by leaps and bounds! Johnny? Not so much.
There is a big difference in absolute strength and "strength gains over time"
3) Take 2 twins and put each on a deserted island. They both have the same food supply. Ill give your guy 185 pounds of weights and he can go by "feel" and do drop sets for the next 12 years.
I am going to give my twin unlimited amounts of weight and his goals over the next 12 years is this
incline press 405 x 15 reps
military press 355 x 15 reps
close grip bench press 405 x 12 reps
squat 455 x 20 reps
standing calf 750 x 20 reps
stiff legged deads for 15-20 reps with alot of weight
deadlift 505 x 15 reps
weighted chins with as much weight as he can do 15 reps with
bicep curls 225 x 20 reps
he might not reach those goals but he is going to try his best to accomplish them.
My gilligan twin is going to dwarf your gilligan
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My and Homonuncleus's trainee Dave Henry wins his pro card at 162 lbs in 2002....I put him on DC training and its now "Beat the logbook or die" for the next 8 years and he now has to lose muscle to make the 202 class and could easily compete at 212 most likely nowadays. So that guy (after he gets his pro card) gains about 50 pounds of muscle mass training shit heavy.
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4) Black guys seem to gain no matter what they do....they have the genetics for this endeavor we call bodybuilding. You go look at the pro ranks where everyone has access to a bunch of drugs and its pretty much an even playing field......what separates the black guys with elite genetics?
Three black guys with similiar elite genetics.....all the same height
Flex Wheeler
Chris Cormier
Ronnie Coleman
They are all using the same compounds....some more than others (love to blow that story wide open but I cant....you can kind of guess what it was about since it would probably shock you)
Wheeler trains lighter and goes by feel.....highest competitive weight is 220's and i think he hit the 230's once.
Cormier trains heavy....known for being one of the stronger bodybuilders on inclines and pressing movements....competes in the 250's and I believe 263 was his highest competitive weight
Ronnie Coleman...just a g'damn beast....trained with weights that a forklift is scared of....ridiculous....805 deadlifts, 800 squats, t-bar rows with 45's falling off the end, 200 pound flat bench dumbells for 12 reps....you allready know the deal......highest competitive weight is 303 pounds at the russian grand prix and wins olympias at 287 and 296 pounds.
Is it tough to figure out the deal there on what is making such a huge difference in muscle mass?
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White guys in bodybuilding.....Sorry but we arent on the same level as the brothers most of the time......you dont usually hear people talk about white guys who just go in and do 3 sets of barbell curls and talk on the phone and get 20 inch arms like you do about black guys. It is what it is and its the direct reason these message boards arent chalk full of younger black guys wondering "man how the heck do i get bigger?!!!!!".....Black guys usually dont have that huge problem until they get up to a huge size and then at that point they have to figure out (like the rest of us mortals) how to eke out a little more size.
I digress.....white guys in bodybuilding.....lets use the pro's again....even playing field.....who is big and thick?
Dorian (shit heavy weights) separated himself from the pack
Branch (shit heavy weights) thick as a brick
Mike Francois was (shit heavy weights) came from powerlifting background and made himself monstrous
Tom Prince was (shit heavy weights) ridiculously heavy weights and ridiculous size
Lee Preist (known for using bigtime poundages) huge for his height
Markus Ruhl (watch his DVD and you tell me) 405 inclines and everything but a refrigerator on the leg press
I mean even Cutler who built most of his size when he was younger and hasnt done much but refine over the last many years, but for some reason has a reputation that he doesnt train heavy....... but 405 for bent over rows is light? Thats not light in my book and neither is some of the other movements he does in extremely strict form.
I guess if within your first year of lifting you have 20 inch arms like Dillett did or can win the teen national heavyweights after 18 months of lifting like Cutler did....you can pretty much tell me to fuck off because your genetics are so fantastic....no matter what you do, you get bigger.....but for everyone else......like someone else allready said "take note of the weights and reps you are using for the next 2 weeks in all the movements you do"....if in 2-5 years you are still using those same weights for the same reps on those movements.....take it to the bank you arent going to be much bigger than you are right now.
Your genetics are going to limit you to what you can accomplish in this sport......no matter what you do...... if a higher power came down and said "Son im giving you the best training, drug, diet, supplement routine know to me (god) to get you as big as possible" and you are destined at the top end to have an arm that is 19.5 inches and no bigger.....thats what you are going to have because the genetics mom and pop gave you determine that.
But for the guys who think progressively heavier weights mean nothing, I'll guarentee you this.....the day you squat 500 lbs for 20 deep reps safely and the trip it took to get there (nutritionally and the diet to get muscularly larger continually, supplements, and super supplements) will NOT be the day you look at your legs and think they are skinny.
Your thoughts and idea's, as well as several others has open my eyes up these last couple years with regards to training.
How I used to train when I was younger dude:
1. Countless sets, going through the motions for pure pump. In other words, warm-up set after warm-up set to get that pump!
2. Coming from a running background, when I stopped running and began building, I hated cardio at this point, so I thought I could make up for the zero cardio with super high volume!
3. The 5-day split, 30 plus sets per muscle group (just stupid insane when I think about it now, I am not Ronnie Coleman)
4. How would I rate my progress, I was always lean as hell, but never felt like I progress with regards to muscle mass, my recovery and nervous system took a beating! So, progress very little on the super high volume and lack of strength progression tools!
5. This is a feel good type of workout with little recovery and little progression unless you a freak of nature!
How I train now and the last couple years:
1. Less sets, less time in the gym, and warm-up sets are meant exactly as that, warm-up for that all out, progression heavy ass workload set that counts!
2. Even though my frequency is still there, my gym time is less, so I beating the loads week to week is a goal. And you can prevent injury for the most part if you find that proper form, mind/muscle connection while letting the load dictate the rep! It should be challenging to the point of being discomforting in a good way!
3. Strength does matter...everytime I get stronger I swear my muscle develops a quality gain to it. I am not the biggest guy (but, I can pack some very quality muscle on 5'6 frame), most likely due to my conservative nature on some things, as well as I have never really pushed my offseason eating, but lets just say I am working on that this offseason and will make sure it happens! I like this new challenge, it will be fun and I will learn even more about my body...trial and error is where it is at!
4. Do not be afraid to deload every 10 weeks for 4 weeks with some superset training, dropset training, giant set training, etc...it will keep things fun and you can still emphasize being progressive just in a different way. I swear it kind of resets my body for the next porgressive, "beat the log" type of training phase! I know some call this sling shotting different types of volumes, but I like to call it refreshing and resetting the body...it is still very challenging if you do it right!
5. Let your training dictate your eating, the stronger I get, the more hungry I am...the more muscle mass I put on, the more hungry I am. I just learned you can't be afraid of feeding the muscle even more at times, find ways to stimulate appetite and when I get STRONGER and train to become stronger, I can tell a difference in my hunger. You can call BS on me, but this MY experience and I still have so much time to learn my body.
Lastly, never compare your training to the genetic elite, take tips and hints from thier training, but do not copy cat it! This game is about genetics, progressive training, progressive eating, progressive supplementation, and maximizing your recovery...and yes I know most bodybuilders are bit OCD with all the above, so either learn from vets or find a reputable coach to help guide the ship because you can always learn new things!
I am no super expert like some of the vets, I just a dude who does this because I like the challenge of change and enjoy it...and it is always good to keep an open eye to different training approaches because what works for one person may not for another...train hard and recover!
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