Whey+Casein = More anabolic? Fact or Fiction

[Knight9]

Assuming you are using a high grade whey isolate and preferably micellar casein in a blend (i.e. TeamSkip) or others out there on the market, would you consider this blend to by synergystic or more anabolic than your standalone whey isolate shake? Yes, of course all of us know that Casein is often preferred before bed by most and by others it is used throughout the day...but I always remember the likes of Mike Arnold saying that it is a fact an isolate/casein blend is more anabolic by having a higher degree of protein synthesis and circulating amino acids. Since I was told this I have thought about it off and on and decided to use TeamSkip from True Nutrition.

Yes, you can slow protein absorption down by adding fat to it (nut butters or oils) but you can also rely on caseins ability to stay circulating for a very long time. Personally I am using a blend of these proteins AND nut butters as my last meal pre bed. I also am currently debating to use 1-2 shakes a day with whey isolate or this same blend of isolate and micellar casein. Im very interested to see peoples thoughts behind blends like this and when they are superior to just isolate alone.

 

[kingpeon]

Mother Nature would say, "yes."

But depending on the demand at any given time you could adjust the ratio to favor better results. And don't forget about colostrum. Puts both whey and casein to shame in my book.

Total casein subunits as well as whey proteins were quantitated in human milk samples during lactation. Two independent methods were used: precipitation at pH 4.3 in the presence of Ca2+ followed by Kjeldahl analysis and polyacrylamide gradient gel electrophoresis (PAGGE) followed by densitometric scanning. Both methods yielded similar results: casein synthesis is low or absent in early lactation, then increases rapidly and subsequently decreases. The concentration of whey proteins decreases from early lactation and continues to fall. These changes result in a whey protein/casein ratio of about 90:10 in early lactation, 60:40 in mature milk and 50:50 in late lactation. These observations indicate that the synthesis and/or secretion of caseins and whey proteins is regulated by different mechanisms. In addition, the relative proportion of the different beta- and kappa-casein subunits was found to vary throughout lactation.

 

[double_barrel]

Assuming you are using a high grade whey isolate and preferably micellar casein in a blend (i.e. TeamSkip) or others out there on the market, would you consider this blend to by synergystic or more anabolic than your standalone whey isolate shake? Yes, of course all of us know that Casein is often preferred before bed by most and by others it is used throughout the day...but I always remember the likes of Mike Arnold saying that it is a fact an isolate/casein blend is more anabolic by having a higher degree of protein synthesis and circulating amino acids. Since I was told this I have thought about it off and on and decided to use TeamSkip from True Nutrition.

Yes, you can slow protein absorption down by adding fat to it (nut butters or oils) but you can also rely on caseins ability to stay circulating for a very long time. Personally I am using a blend of these proteins AND nut butters as my last meal pre bed. I also am currently debating to use 1-2 shakes a day with whey isolate or this same blend of isolate and micellar casein. Im very interested to see peoples thoughts behind blends like this and when they are superior to just isolate alone.

I do the exact same thing for my last meal. 25g Whey/25g Casein/15g Nut Butter or Coconut Oil. More than any other reason, I have been doing this for a long time because I don't like eating something heavy right before I go to bed. It's light and gets me through the night.

Mother Nature would say, "yes."

But depending on the demand at any given time you could adjust the ratio to favor better results. And don't forget about colostrum. Puts both whey and casein to shame in my book.

Total casein subunits as well as whey proteins were quantitated in human milk samples during lactation. Two independent methods were used: precipitation at pH 4.3 in the presence of Ca2+ followed by Kjeldahl analysis and polyacrylamide gradient gel electrophoresis (PAGGE) followed by densitometric scanning. Both methods yielded similar results: casein synthesis is low or absent in early lactation, then increases rapidly and subsequently decreases. The concentration of whey proteins decreases from early lactation and continues to fall. These changes result in a whey protein/casein ratio of about 90:10 in early lactation, 60:40 in mature milk and 50:50 in late lactation. These observations indicate that the synthesis and/or secretion of caseins and whey proteins is regulated by different mechanisms. In addition, the relative proportion of the different beta- and kappa-casein subunits was found to vary throughout lactation.

You win. Good info, thanks.

 

[discohornet]

Im very interested to see peoples thoughts behind blends like this and when they are superior to just isolate alone.

I don't think it will be more anabolic than any other type of protein blend, but it is more advantageous if you are drinking shakes more frequently than just post workout. Whey is still too quickly digested and during dieting becomes glucogenic, and during bulking it's just out of the system too fast. If you are using a protein shake in lieu of some meat, then a casein shake is the ideal choice - adding whey to it really serves to make it more palatable and mixable. That's what I like about milk protein isolate BTW. it's part whey isolate part casein.

 

[lookingforanedge]

Where are you getting colostrum from?

 

[jer]

I couldn't tell you if it's more anabolic, but I decided a couple years ago to just go with Team Skip blend for all my shakes.......I do one for my second meal of the day and one post workout. If I'm being lazy I'll have one before bed, but much rather eat a solid meal, since a shake.....even with 25g additional fat, doesn't keep me full very long.

 

[sazo75]

From all the studies and research I have seen it definitely does, but I think its a bit overrated , you might just be over thinking it a bit too much , don't expect dramatic results from this lol.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Mother Nature would say, "yes."

But depending on the demand at any given time you could adjust the ratio to favor better results. And don't forget about colostrum. Puts both whey and casein to shame in my book.

Total casein subunits as well as whey proteins were quantitated in human milk samples during lactation. Two independent methods were used: precipitation at pH 4.3 in the presence of Ca2+ followed by Kjeldahl analysis and polyacrylamide gradient gel electrophoresis (PAGGE) followed by densitometric scanning. Both methods yielded similar results: casein synthesis is low or absent in early lactation, then increases rapidly and subsequently decreases. The concentration of whey proteins decreases from early lactation and continues to fall. These changes result in a whey protein/casein ratio of about 90:10 in early lactation, 60:40 in mature milk and 50:50 in late lactation. These observations indicate that the synthesis and/or secretion of caseins and whey proteins is regulated by different mechanisms. In addition, the relative proportion of the different beta- and kappa-casein subunits was found to vary throughout lactation.[/QUO

It is important to note that casein naturally exists as micelles. Casein micelles are groups of casein fractions (or pieces) held together by electrical bonds. Micellar casein cannot exist in any form other than this complet natural model.Taking away any piece of the casein micelle changes the electrical bonding of the entire structure and causes the nicelle to fall apart. Once the micelle has been destroyed it cannot be reformed and the potent benefits of micellar casein are lost. When you read the ingredients on the back of a protein product and they list micellar alpha and beta casein you should be alarmed. What happened to the other casein fractions that were present in the natural structure? What then happened to the delta , gamma and kappa fractions? Welcome to the world of creative labeling used by most nutritional supplement companies! If it is not the complect structure,then it is not micellar casein. So look for micellar casein protein and not for calcium casein.

 

[Knight9]

Mother Nature would say, "yes."

But depending on the demand at any given time you could adjust the ratio to favor better results. And don't forget about colostrum. Puts both whey and casein to shame in my book.

Total casein subunits as well as whey proteins were quantitated in human milk samples during lactation. Two independent methods were used: precipitation at pH 4.3 in the presence of Ca2+ followed by Kjeldahl analysis and polyacrylamide gradient gel electrophoresis (PAGGE) followed by densitometric scanning. Both methods yielded similar results: casein synthesis is low or absent in early lactation, then increases rapidly and subsequently decreases. The concentration of whey proteins decreases from early lactation and continues to fall. These changes result in a whey protein/casein ratio of about 90:10 in early lactation, 60:40 in mature milk and 50:50 in late lactation. These observations indicate that the synthesis and/or secretion of caseins and whey proteins is regulated by different mechanisms. In addition, the relative proportion of the different beta- and kappa-casein subunits was found to vary throughout lactation.[/QUO

It is important to note that casein naturally exists as micelles. Casein micelles are groups of casein fractions (or pieces) held together by electrical bonds. Micellar casein cannot exist in any form other than this complet natural model.Taking away any piece of the casein micelle changes the electrical bonding of the entire structure and causes the nicelle to fall apart. Once the micelle has been destroyed it cannot be reformed and the potent benefits of micellar casein are lost. When you read the ingredients on the back of a protein product and they list micellar alpha and beta casein you should be alarmed. What happened to the other casein fractions that were present in the natural structure? What then happened to the delta , gamma and kappa fractions? Welcome to the world of creative labeling used by most nutritional supplement companies! If it is not the complect structure,then it is not micellar casein. So look for micellar casein protein and not for calcium casein.

Interesting...
A bit off subject but Biotest Plazma is micellar casein(hydrolyzed) vs Peptopro which is calcium caseinate (hydrolyzed). Emeric, does it still matter once hydrolyzed?

 

[Ashop]

I do my best on 100% pure whey isolate.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Interesting...
A bit off subject but Biotest Plazma is micellar casein(hydrolyzed) vs Peptopro which is calcium caseinate (hydrolyzed). Emeric, does it still matter once hydrolyzed?

Yes it doses, it has to be undenatured form only, no hydrolyzed, micellar casein is ultra efficient in terms of digestion, tolerance and benefit.

 

[Knight9]

Yes it doses, it has to be undenatured form only, no hydrolyzed, micellar casein is ultra efficient in terms of digestion, tolerance and benefit.

No, I mean if you want a casein hydrolysate....does it matter if it started as micellar casein or calcium caseinate? Is hydrolyzed micellar casein better? Or was it just a more expensive raw product?

 

[emeric delczeg]

No, I mean if you want a casein hydrolysate....does it matter if it started as micellar casein or calcium caseinate? Is hydrolyzed micellar casein better? Or was it just a more expensive raw product?

Calcium caseinate dozn`t contain any alpha, beta ....... fraction, and hydrolyzed is not better is just more expensive. Look for a product that contains 100% micellar casein with no filler proteins (no caseinates, such as calcium caseinate, no whey and especially no soy).

 

[Knight9]

Calcium caseinate dozn`t contain any alpha, beta ....... fraction, and hydrolyzed is not better is just more expensive. Look for a product that contains 100% micellar casein with no filler proteins (no caseinates, such as calcium caseinate, no whey and especially no soy).

Ok but you dont seem to realize I have shifted gears here and am specifically talking about intra workout nutrition with hydrolyzed casein. I went off on a tangent and thought you could provide an answer for this as well.
I have two products to choose from. One is a hydrolyzed calcium caseinate and one is hydrolyzed micellar casein. I have been using the hydrolyzed calcium caseinate and like it. Should I spend a bunch more for hydrolyzed micellar casein for intra workout?

 

[emeric delczeg]

Ok but you dont seem to realize I have shifted gears here and am specifically talking about intra workout nutrition with hydrolyzed casein. I went off on a tangent and thought you could provide an answer for this as well.
I have two products to choose from. One is a hydrolyzed calcium caseinate and one is hydrolyzed micellar casein. I have been using the hydrolyzed calcium caseinate and like it. Should I spend a bunch more for hydrolyzed micellar casein for intra workout?

OK, I see, use the hydrolyzed casein intra not the micellar.

 

[kingpeon]

I'm really enjoying this French micellar from Totalnutritionrx

It screams "very high quality stuff right here!" The texture is unlike any micellar I've ever used, very fine powder but very super chunk in the blender.

Easy on the gut would be an understatement.

 

[Knight9]

Thank you Emeric. I love learning so if you have the time, let me know why you said so.

 

[BigDM]

I use a product that contains a blend of 100% unstripped whey protein concentrate and hydrolyzed whey protein isolate and micellar casein. Good stuff!

 

[snrose07]

How would you ensure your source is for sure 100% undenatured?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4

 

[emeric delczeg]

How would you ensure your source is for sure 100% undenatured?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4

You need to ask the supplier that the process was used was ultrafiltration without the use of chemicals and high heat.