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Who absorbs transdermal test well?

brutale

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Recently I gave test-e IM a try after severals years on testim gel.

I didn't appreciate how good I had it on Testim. With just a tube a day, my TT would run between 1000 and 1500, with free test and dht somewhat above top-end of reference range but not crazy. Not bad for 48yo guy doing "HRT". 1.5 tubes have given me 1500+.

A light cycle with test-e (dropping the gel) caused a bloating, red-face estrogen nightmare - despite 0.5 mg a-dex. Nolvadex and proviron helped sort it.

Here's the thing: I just found a reference which says that my testim results (1250 test) are what people get on 300mg test-e. Huh?
Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

Anybody else absorb transdermal like a sponge?

So im back to testim. I'm curious: anybody else
 

maldorf

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Recently I gave test-e IM a try after severals years on testim gel.

I didn't appreciate how good I had it on Testim. With just a tube a day, my TT would run between 1000 and 1500, with free test and dht somewhat above top-end of reference range but not crazy. Not bad for 48yo guy doing "HRT". 1.5 tubes have given me 1500+.

A light cycle with test-e (dropping the gel) caused a bloating, red-face estrogen nightmare - despite 0.5 mg a-dex. Nolvadex and proviron helped sort it.

Here's the thing: I just found a reference which says that my testim results (1250 test) are what people get on 300mg test-e. Huh?
Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

Anybody else absorb transdermal like a sponge?

So im back to testim. I'm curious: anybody else
Im curious as to what the price is like on that stuff? Ive heard that its quite high. I have insurance and it would be paid for partly at least. Right now Im on 100 mg test cyp IM once a week and Im sitting at about 650 total test.
 

brutale

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Maldorf, the cost w/o insurance seems to be about $280 / month (assuming 1 tube per day). Hope I'm reading the box right. At full cost, it seems like a pretty poor deal especially since some folks seem to need 2 tubes to get to 600 or beyond. On the other hand, there are probably others like me who can get a lot out of 1 tube.

My absorption seems unusually high although I am trying to make it high. (I put the gel on right after a hot morning shower, massage it in for a few minutes, and then let soak for 15 mins before putting on a shirt.)
 

maldorf

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Maldorf, the cost w/o insurance seems to be about $280 / month (assuming 1 tube per day). Hope I'm reading the box right. At full cost, it seems like a pretty poor deal especially since some folks seem to need 2 tubes to get to 600 or beyond. On the other hand, there are probably others like me who can get a lot out of 1 tube.

My absorption seems unusually high although I am trying to make it high. (I put the gel on right after a hot morning shower, massage it in for a few minutes, and then let soak for 15 mins before putting on a shirt.)
What is it with your insurance? Ill proll just stick with my IM injections since its working ok for me, but Im having troubles with high hematocrit. My endo inferred once that he thought the gel didnt jack up your hematocrit as much since it provides a more level test concentration in the blood without the spike shortly after you inject. I guess even the long esters have a spike. I think I end up paying about $35 for 3 months worth of injections with my insurance.
 

brutale

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I've been paying $40. I have had hematocrit issues too ... I drifted into the low 50s and gave blood.

Here are my impressions of the hematocrit issue. (Please bear in mind that my experience level is modest - which is why I'm posting in this section!)

Polycythemia seems to depend on the trough levels of test, rather than the average or the peak. Here is a study: Trough serum testosterone predicts the development of polycythemia in hypogonadal men treated for up to 21 years with subcutaneous testosterone pellets -- Ip et al. 162 (2): 385 -- European Journal of Endocrinology

For me, transdermal test seems spiky. Over the last few years, late morning blood draws have been (on avg) over 1250, late afternoon draws a couple hundred lower, and next day draws (w/o morning test) between 500 and 1000.

My guess is that test-e is much steadier with gradual decay bet shots; so the troughs may be higher relative to the average daily blood levels. I saw a study where transdermal and IM test were compared, and there was more polycythemia in the IM group.

One other idea I'm thinking about relates to dht conversion. If my understanding is right, the higher dht conversion of transdermal may make it - all else equal - less likely to promote production of red blood cells. I certainly feel like I have fewer estrogen issues w transdermal.
 

maldorf

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I've been paying $40. I have had hematocrit issues too ... I drifted into the low 50s and gave blood.

Here are my impressions of the hematocrit issue. (Please bear in mind that my experience level is modest - which is why I'm posting in this section!)

Polycythemia seems to depend on the trough levels of test, rather than the average or the peak. Here is a study: Trough serum testosterone predicts the development of polycythemia in hypogonadal men treated for up to 21 years with subcutaneous testosterone pellets -- Ip et al. 162 (2): 385 -- European Journal of Endocrinology

For me, transdermal test seems spiky. Over the last few years, late morning blood draws have been (on avg) over 1250, late afternoon draws a couple hundred lower, and next day draws (w/o morning test) between 500 and 1000.

My guess is that test-e is much steadier with gradual decay bet shots; so the troughs may be higher relative to the average daily blood levels. I saw a study where transdermal and IM test were compared, and there was more polycythemia in the IM group.

One other idea I'm thinking about relates to dht conversion. If my understanding is right, the higher dht conversion of transdermal may make it - all else equal - less likely to promote production of red blood cells. I certainly feel like I have fewer estrogen issues w transdermal.
Great info here. I know my endo would like me to use the transdermal, but Im partial to the convenience and familiarity of using the IM. If youre still having issues though with HCT using the transdermal, then maybe it wouldnt help me much. I do see though that your total test is 1200 or so and mine was in the mid 800s and I was getting a HCT of about 50-52.
I see my endo in another month. I guess I would like to continue just doing IM if I can. You say your gel cost you $40. Is that per month or for 3 months? I get my test vials through the mail and a 3month supply costs me about $40 or so.
 

brutale

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40 per month. But I'd bet it varies depending on the insurance carrier. I think Testim has something like a free trial program or a discount card available.

FWIW I absorb Testim somewhat better than Androgel. Some people use creams from compounding pharmacies, but I have no experience there. Testim is stinky for sure - although some women have said they like it.

(I haven't totally given up on the idea of using injectable test, but I'm inclined to use Testim as the day-to-day HRT base, and then add test-e or whatever the next time I want to try a cycle. But I will use Letro next time since I'm so estro sensitive, or stick w dht stuff. Think that older guys like me have more issues w estro and hematocrit in general - sucks)
 

maldorf

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40 per month. But I'd bet it varies depending on the insurance carrier. I think Testim has something like a free trial program or a discount card available.

FWIW I absorb Testim somewhat better than Androgel. Some people use creams from compounding pharmacies, but I have no experience there. Testim is stinky for sure - although some women have said they like it.

(I haven't totally given up on the idea of using injectable test, but I'm inclined to use Testim as the day-to-day HRT base, and then add test-e or whatever the next time I want to try a cycle. But I will use Letro next time since I'm so estro sensitive, or stick w dht stuff. Think that older guys like me have more issues w estro and hematocrit in general - sucks)
Yeah, someone posted a study on here just this week that showed that the effect of raising HCT gets worse the older you are. I forget the exact mechanism. Im 40 yrs old now. I went on HRT after using steroids for a good 9 yrs or so. When I got off my natural test levels never came back. My LH was stuck at a level that would come back from the labs as "under measurable levels"! I had to get off the juice because I had a bad blood clot 2 years ago and suffered a really bad heart attack. I now have a pacemaker/defibrillator in my chest.

here is my thread if youve not seen it yet:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/37736-just-survived-heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

Be careful running cycles.
 
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brutale

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I read through your thread -- thanks for posting your experience -- and it is chilling. Glad you are still here, and I hope you are doing ok.

You were doing a lot of the right things (blood work, getting your hematocrit down, fish oil, hydration, bp meds ... even aspirin that day) - stuff many people cut corners on. And yet disaster struck. Things can be fragile.

You made an important point about moderation / compromise ...
 
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