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whole blood or double red cell donation?

55 is waaay too high, that’s the max cut off.

My hematologist wants my hemoglobin at 15 or less, so that would be around a 45 hematocrit. I have a clotting disorder though and a history of clots now. 55 seems a bit high to me. If I were an average steroid user I think I would try to keep mine down below 50.
 
My hematologist wants my hemoglobin at 15 or less, so that would be around a 45 hematocrit. I have a clotting disorder though and a history of clots now. 55 seems a bit high to me. If I were an average steroid user I think I would try to keep mine down below 50.

This is the problem, it's going to be in the low 50s, if you try to keep it under 50, you are going to be giving blood constantly, you will end up with a compensatory effect that makes it climb even higher if you don't donate frequently enough.

Male endurance athletes who live at elevation naturally have it 51-52 sometimes. Mine almost never goes above 53, UNLESS I donate, then it seems to climb higher. My current doctor isn't concerned until it gets to 55.
 
This is the problem, it's going to be in the low 50s, if you try to keep it under 50, you are going to be giving blood constantly, you will end up with a compensatory effect that makes it climb even higher if you don't donate frequently enough.

Male endurance athletes who live at elevation naturally have it 51-52 sometimes. Mine almost never goes above 53, UNLESS I donate, then it seems to climb higher. My current doctor isn't concerned until it gets to 55.

With mine I am able to maintain hemoglobin between 15 and 16 by going just once every 3 months. Sometimes I go in and it isn't high enough to worry about and then I will come back in another 2 months. That is my case. I am only taking about 100 mg/wk test though.
 
Why are you donating blood? Because your RBC is high, you have too many red blood cells and it makes your blood thick harder to pump, plus more likely to clot. Platelets are what make your blood "sticky" and can compound the issue.

Recommendations for donating blood on a regular basis (once or twice a year) go back way before bodybuilding to doctors who thought that men needed to donate blood as a preventive health mechanism. These doctors were always very specific about it being whole blood, not double red.

Kaladryn,

I had blood work come back this week. The platelet count seems low-normal. Of course my H/H is high. Would this be a situation where getting rid of platelets isn't an issue and a double red would be good to do?

Thanks
 

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Kaladryn,

I had blood work come back this week. The platelet count seems low-normal. Of course my H/H is high. Would this be a situation where getting rid of platelets isn't an issue and a double red would be good to do?

Thanks


It appears you may be in route to iron deficiency without anemia by looking at your indices.

I'd highly suggest pulling an anemia panel before you dump any blood.

How many times have you donated over the last 6-12 months?
 
It appears you may be in route to iron deficiency without anemia by looking at your indices.

I'd highly suggest pulling an anemia panel before you dump any blood.

How many times have you donated over the last 6-12 months?


Thanks for the reply Stewie.

I donated double red cells 8/2018

I donated whole blood 3/2019

I've basically been donating once I get a reading over 18 hemoglobin.

Balancing iron and my hemoglobin has been an on-going issue for me. Trying to maintain decent iron without H/H entering a dangerous area. I'm on prescribed TRT, no blasting etc.

How can I raise iron without raising hemoglobin?
Or
How can I lower hemoglobin without donating? Is there anything besides cardio or lowing TRT dose?

Thanks
 
Thanks for the reply Stewie.

I donated double red cells 8/2018

I donated whole blood 3/2019

I've basically been donating once I get a reading over 18 hemoglobin.

Balancing iron and my hemoglobin has been an on-going issue for me. Trying to maintain decent iron without H/H entering a dangerous area. I'm on prescribed TRT, no blasting etc.

How can I raise iron without raising hemoglobin?
Or
How can I lower hemoglobin without donating? Is there anything besides cardio or lowing TRT dose?

Thanks

You're creating a vicious cycle by doing back-to-back phlebotomies to keep kicking out erythrocytes (red blood cells). If, in the event you are iron (Fe) deficient, the lack of iron---which require 4 Fe atom per hemoglobin (2 alpha and 2 beta chains). This in-return *could* create an environment for immature erythrocytes not be able to facilitate enough Fe++ to hemoglobin. In return, stimulates more erythropoietin (such as your testosterone/AAS is doing) due to hypoxia (insufficient oxygen from lack of Fe++ hemoglobin synthesis). Hopefully that makes sense?

I'd recommend cutting way back on whatever hormones you may be on. Be screened for undiagnosed or uncontrolled sleep apnea. And don't be afraid to supplement with Fe *if* in the event you are iron deficient.


I made a similar response in this thread:
https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2678849

The issue with repeated phlebotomies, especially in the presence of iron deficiency revs up erythropoietic response, thus stimuli of more RBC production as a compensatory for the lack of oxygenated hemoglobin. This is a common theme for a host of individuals that experience a constant elevation of their HH that repeatedly phlebotomizing while on a cycle or TRT. Ultimately this becomes a viscous cycle leaving them in a quandary state, of 'what to do'. Aside from iron loss during excessive phlebotomizing, we lose other trace minerals that are vital. There's not much for literature stating the potential for secondary deficiencies of other micronutrients (trace minerals) loss in routine therapeutic phlebotomies. So these questions are treading in the unknown without pulling specific blood markers. Under these circumstances, I'd suggest taking a good quality multivitamin with iron and zinc leading up to and after your phlebotomy. If by chance there is a copper deficiency, be sure to add copper to your zinc supplemention at a 10:1 ratio of zinc to copper. As for you to be pushing 58%, I'd have say there's another driver behind this outside of androgenic stimuli. Hypoxic-hypoxia from undiagnosed sleep apnea is another stimulus of erythropoietic response. I would dig deeper into ruling out OSA. Or lack of sufficient hydration and or the combination of undiagnosed OSA. Hard to say with certainty. Nonetheless. Here again, I suspect you may have mixed deficiencies. Generally MCV is elevated (macrocytic) in the presence of copper deficiency, as opposed to your microcytic status, although iron deficiency may over power showing signs of macrocytic. Although I would still consider asking your primary to assess the aforementioned immunoassays. The reasoning for my suggestions is that chronic digestive problems inconjunction with longterm use of PPI's and H2RA's can impede the absorption of copper, therefore hindering proper iron absorption. So it may be worthwhile to tease-out the possibility of a secondary deficiency is in place. Are you Rx'd the PPI's and was you diagnosed with GERD or similar? Or are you taking them primarily by your own decisions? If the latter, I'd suggest looking into substituting the PPI for betaine HCI and pepsin. If the former, I'd discuss the discontinuation of its use with your primary about switching to the use of betanie HCI/pepsin with each meal. Otherwise you may be facing an unbeatable battle to restore your Fe status. A majority of the time it's not 'too much acid secretion', as most people (and clinicians) believe. Rather it's related to lowered acid secretion (hypochlorhydria) in those with heartburn, gastric distress, acid reflux. By suppressing gastric acid, this isn't fixing a problem, it's exacerbating a losing battle you're faced with. So yes, PPI's have been associated with impaired nutrient assimilation. As well, there's suggestive evidence that prolonged use of PPI's could potentially lead to acute kidney injury and acute interstitial nephritis. So, I'd reevaluate using a PPI. There's some intriguing literature giving us fairly clear Information that iron deficiency acts as a prerequisite to a few different etiologies, e.g., cardiomyopathy (in more severe longterm cases), thrombosis risk through increased platelet aggregation- adhesion, cognitive impairment, impairment of our immune system, which is hypothesized to be a link between iron deficiency and some cancers. So, there's that. You may need some reorganization of your diet not only for your GERD, as well interactions of food-food, nutrients, drugs that may inhibit sufficient iron absorption. Outside of vitamin C to enhance heme based iron absorption, as does Lysine. As for nonheme foods, Alpha-GPC has been noted to enhance nonheme base iron absorption. Vitamin A is dose dependent that can act paradoxically with iron absorption. Too high of dosages has been noted as being inhibitory, in contrast to lower doses seems to enhance uptake. The incredible edible egg can do damage on iron absorption, as does several other foods. Ultimately in the end of all this gibberish. You really need to get to the root of why you've been struggling with regaining your Fe status. No Celiac or Crohn's disease?
 
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And don't fall prey to that whole grapefruit thing either.
 
And don't fall prey to that whole grapefruit thing either.

Thanks.

I will get the iron tested. I did have a sleep apnea test a couple of years ago and was told I didn't have it.

Lowering the TRT seems to be about the only option otherwise the H/H get too high.
 
Thanks.

I will get the iron tested. I did have a sleep apnea test a couple of years ago and was told I didn't have it.

Lowering the TRT seems to be about the only option otherwise the H/H get too high.

If you don't mind me asking, what's your dosage now?
 
If you don't mind me asking, what's your dosage now?

175mg/week and it only puts me at 568 (sad I know).

I was doing daily 25mg/day to see how it looked in the bloodwork.

Free is higher and total is actually lower after switching to daily and adding the Boron per Dante

I'm just looking for ways to lower the dose, but keep the numbers higher.
 

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You're creating a vicious cycle by doing back-to-back phlebotomies to keep kicking out erythrocytes (red blood cells). If, in the event you are iron (Fe) deficient, the lack of iron---which require 4 Fe atom per hemoglobin (2 alpha and 2 beta chains). This in-return *could* create an environment for immature erythrocytes not be able to facilitate enough Fe++ to hemoglobin. In return, stimulates more erythropoietin (such as your testosterone/AAS is doing) due to hypoxia (insufficient oxygen from lack of Fe++ hemoglobin synthesis). Hopefully that makes sense?

I'd recommend cutting way back on whatever hormones you may be on. Be screened for undiagnosed or uncontrolled sleep apnea. And don't be afraid to supplement with Fe *if* in the event you are iron deficient.


I made a similar response in this thread:
https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2678849

What would happen if, in his situation, he started taking iron? What would rbc, hemo and hct do short term?
 
What would happen if, in his situation, he started taking iron? What would rbc, hemo and hct do short term?

I made a post very similar to your question on a Facebook post a few days ago.

Why would you stop eating liver? Because of the iron content in it?

There's a big misconception extra iron intake equates to higher concentrations of hemoglobin. This couldn't be further from the truth. The exception for this is when one is in a state of erythrocyte (red blood cells) anemia. Or with erythrocytosis.

The fact of the matter is one hemoglobin molecule can only facilitate 4 Fe++ (iron) atoms. Which are bound in four polypeptide chains consisting of 2 alpha and 2 beta. In the event you wanted to know.

There's individuals with an iron accumulation disease called hemochromatosis. With this particular condition, which is either a hereditary or non-hereditary condition their iron regulating hormone, hepcidin is suppressed. Then through a cascade of events will cause degradation of a transmembrane protein-->ferroportin, in which prevents iron export from cells. Therefore, iron overload in circulation and tissue.

A vast majority of these individuals, without any secondary etiology that stimulates an erythropoietic response, such as hypoxic-hypoxia from undiagnosed/uncontrolled sleep apnea or testosterone replacement (with erythrocytosis) will have mid-range physiological hemoglobin hematocrit levels.

There's no need to fear iron intake if you're not predisposed to the aforementioned condition
.
 
What would happen if, in his situation, he started taking iron? What would rbc, hemo and hct do short term?

Personally, when I've been iron deficient WITHOUT anemia from over phlebotomizing. Or in the presence of erythrocytosis (excessive red blood cells) I've supplemented with Fe with no increase in my HH. Same with a few others here.
 
175mg/week and it only puts me at 568 (sad I know).

I was doing daily 25mg/day to see how it looked in the bloodwork.

Free is higher and total is actually lower after switching to daily and adding the Boron per Dante

I'm just looking for ways to lower the dose, but keep the numbers higher.

And that's pharmaceutical quality? If so, yeah that is sad.
 
You're creating a vicious cycle by doing back-to-back phlebotomies to keep kicking out erythrocytes (red blood cells). If, in the event you are iron (Fe) deficient, the lack of iron---which require 4 Fe atom per hemoglobin (2 alpha and 2 beta chains). This in-return *could* create an environment for immature erythrocytes not be able to facilitate enough Fe++ to hemoglobin. In return, stimulates more erythropoietin (such as your testosterone/AAS is doing) due to hypoxia (insufficient oxygen from lack of Fe++ hemoglobin synthesis). Hopefully that makes sense?

I'd recommend cutting way back on whatever hormones you may be on. Be screened for undiagnosed or uncontrolled sleep apnea. And don't be afraid to supplement with Fe *if* in the event you are iron deficient.


I made a similar response in this thread:
https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2678849

What would happen if, in his situation, he started taking iron? What would rbc, hemo and hct do short term?

I skimmed past your RBC's. Obviously you are in a state of erythrocytosis (excessive red blood cells). In this case, I wouldn't recommend supplementing with Fe. So ignore my original post.

Sorry about the confusion.
 
I skimmed past your RBC's. Obviously you are in a state of erythrocytosis (excessive red blood cells). In this case, I wouldn't recommend supplementing with Fe. So ignore my original post.

Sorry about the confusion.

Thanks for the response(s). Even if there is a iron deficienty?
 
Thanks for the response(s). Even if there is a iron deficienty?


Because of the excessive erythrocytes, this can create an environment for his hematocrit percentage to go up. He'd want to get his erythrocytes in a physiological range before supplementing with Fe. Which may require another sleep study and/or cutting his dose further down. Although his TT is mid-range now at 175mg which is quite bizarre.
 
Kevin, do you smoke by chance?
 
Kevin, do you smoke by chance?

No, I don't smoke.

Yes, it's prescription test.

I've been on Dr prescribed test for 14 years now. I never used testosterone or anything before being prescribed and have never used above my prescribed dose of 200mg/week. I had garbage test numbers when I was in my mid 30s - low 300s for total test and finally started a prescription.

When I started my total test was well over 1000 on 200mg/week

My total test has slowly gone down over the years on the 200/mg prescription while H/H has risen and I'm sure I've put myself in an awful feedback loop with the donations, but it's what Drs have always recommended b/c they didn't think lowering the dose was a good idea either bc my test numbers aren't great.

I will just have to keep lowering the test and live with it. It's a battle that can't be won.

I see that Iron supplementation is not a good idea.

I do at least 30 minutes of cardio 7 days a week. I could up it to twice a day maybe.

Thanks for taking a look, I appreciate the help.
 

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