Why bodybuilder deaths are increasing and how to fix this

[traininsane11]

 

[traininsane11]

Really really interesting episode

It may sound like I’ve done a 180 from all my threads and posts going from “whatever it takes” to the “health guy” …. And maybe I have.

Here’s the conclusion I’ve drawn from the info I’ve gathered from a fair amount of research

The guys who really have what it takes don’t have to do reckless stuff to make it (not saying they don’t just that they don’t have to) so for them it’s just a matter of consistency and time

The guys who don’t have what it takes well what’s the point of being reckless because you’re not gonna make it anyway you can’t overcome genetics

I’m yet to see first hand by admission someone who has out drugged their potential and achieved greatness.

From what I can see the super high dosage guys eventually realise it’s not happening and cut their dosages right back and seemingly don’t regret it if anything 9/10 say they wish they had done it sooner

The guys who just keep blasting either just die or forever have totally mediocre physiques in exchange for massively shortening their lives arguably for no actual reason as past a point more is not more

Unfortunately for most and I disagreed with this initially hoping for the “secret” but seeing it prove true over and over again has me realise if you can’t make it on low dosages then you can’t make it on high dosages

Now I’m not saying you’re gonna be 300lbs lean on 500mg of test but if you have to use grams and grams + everything else to be a semi decent offseason 240lbs then you’ve picked the wrong hobby IN MY OPINION

Personally I think I probably jumped the gun with jumping up dosages way too soon hoping I could fast track my progress and I honestly don’t think it made anything happen quicker than it would of anyway and has made me recalculate how I will approach things moving forward

The saying use the least to get the most is completely true

I will speak for 99% of us - is it worth going way over the top with drugs to achieve essentially very mediocre physique in the grand scheme of competitive bodybuilding in exchange for maybe decades of our lives when we potentially could achieve the same with a much smaller price to pay? For me the answer is no … guess I’m not hardcore

 

[td]

The "secret" for you, @traininsane11, is 8 more years. You don't have to be reckless. You just have to put in the time. It takes time to build muscle even in an ideal hormonal environment.

It usually takes 10 years to become a good bodybuilder unless you're the rarest of the rare. Can you commit for a decade?

 

[Swifto]

Really really interesting episode

It may sound like I’ve done a 180 from all my threads and posts going from “whatever it takes” to the “health guy” …. And maybe I have.

Here’s the conclusion I’ve drawn from the info I’ve gathered from a fair amount of research

The guys who really have what it takes don’t have to do reckless stuff to make it (not saying they don’t just that they don’t have to) so for them it’s just a matter of consistency and time

The guys who don’t have what it takes well what’s the point of being reckless because you’re not gonna make it anyway you can’t overcome genetics

I’m yet to see first hand by admission someone who has out drugged their potential and achieved greatness.

From what I can see the super high dosage guys eventually realise it’s not happening and cut their dosages right back and seemingly don’t regret it if anything 9/10 say they wish they had done it sooner

The guys who just keep blasting either just die or forever have totally mediocre physiques in exchange for massively shortening their lives arguably for no actual reason as past a point more is not more

Unfortunately for most and I disagreed with this initially hoping for the “secret” but seeing it prove true over and over again has me realise if you can’t make it on low dosages then you can’t make it on high dosages

Now I’m not saying you’re gonna be 300lbs lean on 500mg of test but if you have to use grams and grams + everything else to be a semi decent offseason 240lbs then you’ve picked the wrong hobby IN MY OPINION

Personally I think I probably jumped the gun with jumping up dosages way too soon hoping I could fast track my progress and I honestly don’t think it made anything happen quicker than it would of anyway and has made me recalculate how I will approach things moving forward

The saying use the least to get the most is completely true

I will speak for 99% of us - is it worth going way over the top with drugs to achieve essentially very mediocre physique in the grand scheme of competitive bodybuilding in exchange for maybe decades of our lives when we potentially could achieve the same with a much smaller price to pay? For me the answer is no … guess I’m not hardcore

How are your PED dosages changing going forward?

 

[traininsane11]

The "secret" for you, @traininsane11, is 8 more years. You don't have to be reckless. You just have to put in the time. It takes time to build muscle even in an ideal hormonal environment.

It usually takes 10 years to become a good bodybuilder unless you're the rarest of the rare. Can you commit for a decade?

Totally agree! I think I just got impatient and also didn’t understand the full context which is I’m nearly 3 years into this and trying to compete with guys who are maybe 5/10/15/20 years deep but because we’re at the same level of competitions just assuming everything is equal but you just can’t fast track progress realistically

I believe so yeah and I definitely know being sensible and committing to that timeframe in a sensible manner that allows me to even get there is far more sensible instead of trying to go all out

Always always learning and I hope others can see this for themselves to we can’t outbuild our blueprint and that’s okay don’t kill your self fighting an impossibility

 

[M@NU]

i am currently undergoing the process of turning 180° or at least trying..
since December 2024 i didnt go below 1g of gear until end of december. Most of the time between 1,5g and 2,2g
ive trained close to every day (probably 340 days out of the year), no matter how ive felt. I was obsessed with getting bigger and had the "more is more" mentality.
i didnt do bloodwork since January 2025 - not because it was too expensive or i had no time but because i was afraid of the result and "well, i better not know it than know it"..
since december, i didnt feel well anymore. My long walks that ive enjoyed became more and more exhausting, training stagnated due to smaller injuries, inflamed joints etc. I just didnt feel healthy anymore.
i dont compete, i dont earn money here. i have a great job, great family etc.
then end of december ive draw the conclusion to drop the gear - but i still didnt drop it enough. I was still on 300/300/140 test/primo/npp, no for many here a blast.
Then ive decided its time to do bloodwork and the bloodwork gave me enough reason to drop again. since Monday, ive reduced to 350 test / 140 primo - still not TRT level but close enough to really give my body a break from the times of 1,5g+.
i have to change. I can not blast a year straight on with many months of orals. I dont want to that reckless anymore - never again.
i will now stay on this dosage for atleast 20 weeks and i wont go over 1g anymore and blasts of a maximum of 16 weeks. I dont have the genetics to get to elite level and i dont want to die before reaching retirement.
Right now i am convinced i will stick to the plan and i hope i will also be mentally strong enough when the bodyweight and the training weight drops..

 

[traininsane11]

How are your PED dosages changing going forward?

Just using the minimal amount required to make maximal progress and only increasing when everything else is exhausted and it’s a must instead of “just because”

 

[traininsane11]

i am currently undergoing the process of turning 180° or at least trying..
since December 2024 i didnt go below 1g of gear until end of december. Most of the time between 1,5g and 2,2g
ive trained close to every day (probably 340 days out of the year), no matter how ive felt. I was obsessed with getting bigger and had the "more is more" mentality.
i didnt do bloodwork since January 2025 - not because it was too expensive or i had no time but because i was afraid of the result and "well, i better not know it than know it"..
since december, i didnt feel well anymore. My long walks that ive enjoyed became more and more exhausting, training stagnated due to smaller injuries, inflamed joints etc. I just didnt feel healthy anymore.
i dont compete, i dont earn money here. i have a great job, great family etc.
then end of december ive draw the conclusion to drop the gear - but i still didnt drop it enough. I was still on 300/300/140 test/primo/npp, no for many here a blast.
Then ive decided its time to do bloodwork and the bloodwork gave me enough reason to drop again. since Monday, ive reduced to 350 test / 140 primo - still not TRT level but close enough to really give my body a break from the times of 1,5g+.
i have to change. I can not blast a year straight on with many months of orals. I dont want to that reckless anymore - never again.
i will now stay on this dosage for atleast 20 weeks and i wont go over 1g anymore and blasts of a maximum of 16 weeks. I dont have the genetics to get to elite level and i dont want to die before reaching retirement.
Right now i am convinced i will stick to the plan and i hope i will also be mentally strong enough when the bodyweight and the training weight drops..

Really good to see you’ve managed to turn over a leaf for the better it’s genuinely not easy but in the long run it’s the only real way

I’m currently on 300mg of test as a cruise and will be doing that multiple times per year . No it’s not TRT and I won’t do it for months on end as I still have serious competetive goals (for me) but I can have the same chance at accomplishing them without being moronic

 

[M@NU]

Really good to see you’ve managed to turn over a leaf for the better it’s genuinely not easy but in the long run it’s the only real way

I’m currently on 300mg of test as a cruise and will be doing that multiple times per year . No it’s not TRT and I won’t do it for months on end as I still have serious competetive goals (for me) but I can have the same chance at accomplishing them without being moronic

thanks buddy.. yeah,it is not easy.
Ive sacrificied everything apart from my family and my job for this. Ive completely abondend social life, lived like a Monk.
every day sleep time 9:30pm, no exceptions. Even on new years eve i went to bed at this time.
I have an obsessive character and this was with everything ive done. in childhood and until 20 it was non stop only gaming, after that it was/is bodybuilding-

..maybe it is time to search for a woman

 

[traininsane11]

thanks buddy.. yeah,it is not easy.
Ive sacrificied everything apart from my family and my job for this. Ive completely abondend social life, lived like a Monk.
every day sleep time 9:30pm, no exceptions. Even on new years eve i went to bed at this time.
I have an obsessive character and this was with everything ive done. in childhood and until 20 it was non stop only gaming, after that it was/is bodybuilding-

..maybe it is time to search for a woman

But this is what we’re told if you do all this then you can be #1 . Hard work , sacrifice etc etc and there’s the champions story who overcame all odds etc

But they leave out the “only if you’re born with absolutely elite tier genetics” which unfortunately is the number 1 required component

Sounds cool when you sacrifice it all to be the best in the world

Kinda less cool when you place 8/10 at some really small local show

 

[luki7788]

But this is what we’re told if you do all this then you can be #1 . Hard work , sacrifice etc etc and there’s the champions story who overcame all odds etc

But they leave out the “only if you’re born with absolutely elite tier genetics” which unfortunately is the number 1 required component

Sounds cool when you sacrifice it all to be the best in the world

Kinda less cool when you place 8/10 at some really small local show

I’m not going to talk again about if big doses are worth it or not, or the “moral” side of it, because my opinions are already in many threads on this forum. Writing the same thing again is pointless.
But I can say one thing. I was probably one of the guys here who pushed it the most. I used some of the biggest doses, even compared to people I know. I did this for many years, and my approach has changed a lot.
And the truth is: I did not need doses that high. I just kept increasing them. I increased too fast, and later I saw that on lower doses I could grow just as well. I was simply taking more, being more toxic, feeling unhealthy, but I thought that’s how a bodybuilder is “supposed” to feel. That’s what people said back then, especially when I started using PEDs about 17 years ago.
And about you @traininsane11 honestly with all respect, when I read your posts where you keep complaining about your genetics and you keep saying you are “average”, it makes me not even want to read it...
So I will say it short, so you understand. Patrick Tour once told Fuad something similar, when Fuad said he has average genetics. Patrick was surprised and he said one simple thing. I will say the same to you:

We have a different definition of “average genetics”.

You are not average, not even 1%. That’s it. Realize it.

 

[PRorER]

Bodybuilding is a marathon, not a sprint. Large dosages definitely have there place in this sport but training hard, eating right, and recovering properly will take you farther then the dosages can. We can insert many examples with xyz dosages but I don’t think there’s a point in over-analyzing

 

[traininsane11]

I’m not going to talk again about if big doses are worth it or not, or the “moral” side of it, because my opinions are already in many threads on this forum. Writing the same thing again is pointless.
But I can say one thing. I was probably one of the guys here who pushed it the most. I used some of the biggest doses, even compared to people I know. I did this for many years, and my approach has changed a lot.
And the truth is: I did not need doses that high. I just kept increasing them. I increased too fast, and later I saw that on lower doses I could grow just as well. I was simply taking more, being more toxic, feeling unhealthy, but I thought that’s how a bodybuilder is “supposed” to feel. That’s what people said back then, especially when I started using PEDs about 17 years ago.
And about you @traininsane11 honestly with all respect, when I read your posts where you keep complaining about your genetics and you keep saying you are “average”, it makes me not even want to read it...
So I will say it short, so you understand. Patrick Tour once told Fuad something similar, when Fuad said he has average genetics. Patrick was surprised and he said one simple thing. I will say the same to you:

We have a different definition of “average genetics”.

You are not average, not even 1%. That’s it. Realize it.

What you’ve said in regards to dosages and your experience seems to be the findings of many I think some don’t admit it because it may mean the dreams over whilst others can accept it and enjoy the process anyway

And you’re right in regards to genetics when I refer to myself as average I’m
Referring to what I believe is required genetic wise to be a successful ifbb pro I honestly don’t believe (really do hope I’m wrong) that I have the potential to achieve something like that

However successful ifbb pro’s represent a microscopic % of the population and compared to that I believe I am better than many but worse than a few as a massive generalisation seeing how I respond to things etc so that puts me in a very fortunate position that many don’t have. I do agree though not having genetics to be a top 10 pro show competitor doesn’t automatically mean you’re average there’s many people who won’t crack top 10 at a local show who put a lot of effort in so it’s just contextual

 

[SouthernMuscle]

Doses are relative up to a point. 1g of test to you @traininsane11 is not the same as it is to someone 100lbs less.

I’m sure you’ve told me before but how old are you

 

[traininsane11]

Doses are relative up to a point. 1g of test to you @traininsane11 is not the same as it is to someone 100lbs less.

I’m sure you’ve told me before but how old are you

I agree and people can argue about what’s high and what isn’t but I think if we’re being honest with ourselves we know. If you’re using 2/3/4x the dosages of guys your level or higher then BS yourself as much as you like you can’t truthfully justify it

I’m 33

 

[SouthernMuscle]

I agree and people can argue about what’s high and what isn’t but I think if we’re being honest with ourselves we know. If you’re using 2/3/4x the dosages of guys your level or higher then BS yourself as much as you like you can’t truthfully justify it

Of course, all else being equal if youre using a lot more than your counterparts to just to keep pace then its not good.

I’m 33

Sheeeeeeeeit, you have time. Find a routine (drugs, training, food) that works and is sustainable and put yourself on autopilot. Dont question yourself unless theres a problem.

 

[luki7788]

What you’ve said in regards to dosages and your experience seems to be the findings of many I think some don’t admit it because it may mean the dreams over whilst others can accept it and enjoy the process anyway
And you’re right in regards to genetics when I refer to myself as average I’m
Referring to what I believe is required genetic wise to be a successful ifbb pro I honestly don’t believe (really do hope I’m wrong) that I have the potential to achieve something like that

However successful ifbb pro’s represent a microscopic % of the population and compared to that I believe I am better than many but worse than a few as a massive generalisation seeing how I respond to things etc so that puts me in a very fortunate position that many don’t have. I do agree though not having genetics to be a top 10 pro show competitor doesn’t automatically mean you’re average there’s many people who won’t crack top 10 at a local show who put a lot of effort in so it’s just contextual

Bro, I tell you like this. What you say shows your mindset, and you honestly don’t have any joy from bodybuilding.

You should enjoy the process. Just the fact that you can do it, that you can improve. But you have only one thought in your head: that you will never be as good as the guys in the top 10 at Mr. Olympia.
So what?
Think about it like this: even getting a pro card is a tiny fraction of the whole world. We have over 8 billion people. If you get a pro card, you are literally a small fraction of a percent. You are elite.
And top 10 Mr. Olympia? That is not even “elite”. That’s like elite of the elite. It’s another universe.
People need to give themselves some credit sometimes. Look how far you got, and be grateful for what life gave you, however you want to call it.

Enjoy what you do. Don’t torture yourself only because you are not at the absolute top. That’s not the point.
And when you finally reach “the top”, you often realize the top was not the real goal. The best part was the whole road to it.

 

[Zamun]

i am currently undergoing the process of turning 180° or at least trying..
since December 2024 i didnt go below 1g of gear until end of december. Most of the time between 1,5g and 2,2g
ive trained close to every day (probably 340 days out of the year), no matter how ive felt. I was obsessed with getting bigger and had the "more is more" mentality.
i didnt do bloodwork since January 2025 - not because it was too expensive or i had no time but because i was afraid of the result and "well, i better not know it than know it"..
since december, i didnt feel well anymore. My long walks that ive enjoyed became more and more exhausting, training stagnated due to smaller injuries, inflamed joints etc. I just didnt feel healthy anymore.
i dont compete, i dont earn money here. i have a great job, great family etc.
then end of december ive draw the conclusion to drop the gear - but i still didnt drop it enough. I was still on 300/300/140 test/primo/npp, no for many here a blast.
Then ive decided its time to do bloodwork and the bloodwork gave me enough reason to drop again. since Monday, ive reduced to 350 test / 140 primo - still not TRT level but close enough to really give my body a break from the times of 1,5g+.
i have to change. I can not blast a year straight on with many months of orals. I dont want to that reckless anymore - never again.
i will now stay on this dosage for atleast 20 weeks and i wont go over 1g anymore and blasts of a maximum of 16 weeks. I dont have the genetics to get to elite level and i dont want to die before reaching retirement.
Right now i am convinced i will stick to the plan and i hope i will also be mentally strong enough when the bodyweight and the training weight drops..

For what it’s worth man primo could be doing you harm in a cruise. I know it’s seen as a benign steroid but it hits my bloodwork worse than just using an AI.

Higher h/h, RBC, and lower HDL vs using the MG toward more test + AI.

This doesn’t apply to everyone but just putting the information out there.

 

[Josefein421]

Dude you change ideas and approaches as the wind blows. For as incredibly developed as you are it seems like severe overanalysis. From blasting year round to minimal necessary for progress...

im turning 43 next month. I wish I had taken Luki's advice in all aspects of life... enjoy the process and not be obsessed with the end result. Because be in career, gym, relationship... I was so focused on the end result and pressuring myself to get there that I missed the ride and all the joy of it in the blink of an eye.

I like Kyle. Andrew has the personality of a ham sandwich. But they are super smart guys. But they are just another bodybuilding podcast covering the same topics as everyone else for the 100th time. There have been juice heads and health guys and everywhere in between since bodybuilding and PEDs existed. Those that want to turkey baster it will. Those that wont, wont. Some will live the "bury my in an XL coffin" and those that are religious with their health. And sometimes bad things will happen anyway a la JM. I guess I am not seeing what new or revolutionary idea they are talking about is.

 

[traininsane11]

Dude you change ideas and approaches as the wind blows. For as incredibly developed as you are it seems like severe overanalysis. From blasting year round to minimal necessary for progress...

im turning 43 next month. I wish I had taken Luki's advice in all aspects of life... enjoy the process and not be obsessed with the end result. Because be in career, gym, relationship... I was so focused on the end result and pressuring myself to get there that I missed the ride and all the joy of it in the blink of an eye.

I like Kyle. Andrew has the personality of a ham sandwich. But they are super smart guys. But they are just another bodybuilding podcast covering the same topics as everyone else for the 100th time. There have been juice heads and health guys and everywhere in between since bodybuilding and PEDs existed. Those that want to turkey baster it will. Those that wont, wont. Some will live the "bury my in an XL coffin" and those that are religious with their health. And sometimes bad things will happen anyway a la JM. I guess I am not seeing what new or revolutionary idea they are talking about is.

Yep definitely some over analysis for sure but as annoying as it can be if it can save me from future regret (doing stupid drug things) I’ll take it . Just stuck in the never ending cycle (lol) of what’s going to give me the best results but I believe I’m close to figuring it out and realistically it’s just realistic expectations and time

Totally agree on enjoying the moment and all that it brings as opposed to solely relying on an end result that probably won’t even happen to finally enjoy it

You’re right but I do think we’re in a time now with information and options that if we wreck our health it’s through stupidity rather than lack of knowledge.

We can have a fair idea via many tests what damage we’re doing and how to prevent a whole lot of it and we’ve endless examples and reasons why crazy drug protocols aren’t the answer
which should mean we can do this healthier than ever but whether that ends up being the case who knows