WHY VOLUME WORKS..

[Mr_Magoo]

I am sorry if you dont like my words MM. I think you dont have to tell me that i am talking bull shit.
I learn Heavy Duty with Mike Mentzer, and i know Heavy Duty is not science but it got a lot of scientifics influences.
Who is Ken Hutchkins and Ken Leistner or Rob Spector....They are scientifics working on HIT variations.

But the only thing i love is people doing write things, and learning what is better or not, with a lot of respect in waht their thinking.

If i spend my money traveling to USA to learn Heavy Duty, HIT and Super Slow, dont you think i am going to defend it...

Just have fun, learn and relax... i find what work for me and i love to teach it.
Like my friend Dieselman said me....In this war no body is going to win.
and remember..........
There is no space for the littles!!!!!!!!!!

Bigheinz

not bullshit, but it is jsut that u say over and over that u like to rely on science not empirics when HIT is quite the opposite to being scientifically based, i just didnt want people to think HIT is as scientifically based as u say it is bc it is not, it uses studies that confirms its beleifs but will disregard the rest of the studies that disprove there beliefs, to me that is not scientific

Look, i know what works for many and what works for myself, my problem is just that it seems like u r trying to force HIT upon us here, kinda like religious fanatics who feel it is their duty to inform others about what they should be doing

if im wrong correct me, but i will say that is how i personally read ur posts. and just bc u spend money on a system does mean or make it right to defend it to the dead end, hell i spent money on flex magazine but i wont defend all the bs in there

 

[101pro]

HIT has science behind it but so does volume. If one chooses to look at old soviet texts, eastern block texts, they will see that the volume method was primarily used.

One funny thing I've noticed is that proponents of HIT usually think that HIT is the only way. Volume proponents, on the other hand, do readily admit that HIT can be very beneficial for short periods of time.

Years ago I read an article by Don the Ripper Ross called everything works. And his basic idea is just that. Every system works, to an extent. It is the proper periodization of these programs that leads to phenomenal results, ie periods of high volume coupled with low volume. Verkoshansky promoted the idea of 4 week cycles with 3 weeks of progressively higher volumes coupled with one week of extreme low volume (this could be a hit week).

The science of behind volume training is extreme. There is a lot if info out there. I'd reccomend starting with Science and Practice by Zatsiorsky and then moving to Supertraining by Siff. Supertraining is a HARD read, full of intense scientific literature. Science and practice should give enough of a background to understand Supertraining. Siff's book facts and fallicies of fitness is also regarded highly, but I havent read it yet. These books should at the least give the HIT desciples something to think about.

Just remember everything works
101pro

 

[Mr_Magoo]

HIT has science behind it but so does volume. If one chooses to look at old soviet texts, eastern block texts, they will see that the volume method was primarily used.

One funny thing I've noticed is that proponents of HIT usually think that HIT is the only way. Volume proponents, on the other hand, do readily admit that HIT can be very beneficial for short periods of time.

101pro

Magoo: Im wel aware of the science behind HIT but my point was Mentzer seemd to pick and choose whateva supported his theories and disregarded the rest

and my second point is not meant as criticism or a flame to bighheinze but this smething many have said on this board and 101pro just re-iterated, it seems that to many people who train HIT cant admit to any other system working for some reason while with volume people will admit HIt does work.

BigHeinz, i have no beef with u if u think im trying to be a prick but i just do not like the manner of ur posts sometimes and some of them like one of ur latest threads volume training vs HIt, no way or something like that is just an out and out knock on volume training, do u see me writing a post saying HIT training sucks, and then list how it ruins ur cns?

u just seem a bit too adamant about ur HIT beliefs and I would like it if u just sat back and thought a little about the fact that numerous people have stated that HIT is like religion to some people, and then look at ur posts, its like ur trying to convert us

again i mean this in the most sincere form, im really not trying to b a prick to u so if i come across as one please understand it is not on purpose

 

[bigheinz]

No problem my friend, i like to debate and that is the reason we are here.
Peace...

 

[Dr.S]

Hey Magoo, have you ever read Heavy Duty II, by Mike Mentzer? Some people might not like his philosophical preaching, but the book is very interesting. I think there is a reason why HIT folks believe only HIT works better than volume: Because it does! Please hear me out; it is only better if you are interesting in gaining as much muscle as possible. I don't agree with BigH's opinions on using 4 grams of orals/week and 9000cal's per day. However, for what he's trying to accomplish (as far as size gains), Heavy Duty is the best way.

The majority of people i've trained over the years were not interested in Heavy Duty (some called it Heavy Doodie). I was able to train a good amount of folks with Mentzer's every 4-7 day protocol (3-4 worksets), though. All of them saw the best mass increases they'ed ever had (usually within a short period,too). Let me give you an example: About 6 years ago, during winter break from college, I trained my brother using the 3-4 sets every 4 days. My brother weighed 210 lbs at the begining and he hadn't worked with weights before. He is also 6'6'', so getting the form correct was a tad rough on deadlifts and squats (we actually switched the squats for leg press). Over a 4 1/2 week period, with no change to diet and 3-4 sets every 4 days, he ended up at 235lbs. Now, 235 at 6'6'' isn't that big, and my brother and I don't have the greatest genetics; but I'd say he was happy to spend a couple hours in the gym (total) to add 25lbs of muscle.

Why I don't recommend Heavy Duty (mentzer style, that is):
--The strength increases don't really correlate to "useable" strength outside the gym. Your body adapts to increasing poundage's in those few movements.
--You will have NO muscular endurance and will cramp up like crazy if you try to add more sets to your workout
--I think you put yourself more at risk for injury. You have to generate an incredible amount of intensity, and you don't adequately work the supporting muscles (this is especially important with the shoulders).
--Let's face it, many of us use the gym as a place to relieve stress or get away from the outside world. Some just like getting a nice pump. Training every 4-7 days for 30 minutes can really make you miss the gym.
--This point is debateable-- It may be difficult to really work on "shape" while only performing a few core exercises. Some will argue that shape is determined only by genetics. I won't argue the point; I'm really not sure on that debate.

In summary, I'd say if Size if ALL your interested in and you don't have an urge to spend much time in the gym, then you should read Heavy Duty by Mike Mentzer. I personally doubt I would train like that again because I'm not all about size anymore. Plus, I like the stress relief of a 45 min workout 3-4X/week; and I like to do isolation movements to help prevent injuries (in the case of my right shoulder, that would be--'further injury').......



Dr.S..........

 

[Mr_Magoo]

and i can reply that it does not, give me more examples or famous people besides the hand full of pros that train HIT? and i do mine hand full

 

[Dr.S]

and i can reply that it does not, give me more examples or famous people besides the hand full of pros that train HIT? and i do mine hand full

OK, hot shot, you want my handful ? HIT trainee's (for starters)---- Brad Pitt, Leanardo Dicaprio, Tom Cruise------that oughtta shut you up!!

Seriously, though, I am not advocating any ONE type of training for Everyone. My point was this: From what I've seen and experienced during my training "career", I think Mentzer training will produce the best results if size is your only concern. Many make this agrument: if you could put on 20lbs of muscle in, let's say 6 months, would it make more sense to spend 12hours (total) in the gym, or 100 hours (total) in the gym? I'm not talking HIT, I'm talking Heavy Duty--- training once every 4-7days.

So, what "famous" people train this way? Well, that is not really my concern. I've had people with average/below average genetics make very good results with Heavy Duty with no change in diet; whereas they barely made progress on even 3x week HIT type workouts. I've also trained people with very good genetics who added more size with Heavy Duty.

Like i originally said, I'm not advocating Heavy Duty for everyone (look at the negatives I mentioned in the first post). I do believe, though, that best size gains would come with a Mentzer type protocol. The problem is that most IFBB pro type's have the genetics to look great no matter what type of training they do (I think Casey Viator once said something like "None of us know what we're doing, just train hard and eat lots of protein"). And these type of people LIKE going to the gym. There's no way they would want to work out once a week, so the theory will probably never be tested in that way. Also, many who train do so for athletic purposes. Heavy Duty would be terrible for an athlete due to the lack of useable strength, lack of flexiblity, propensity for injury, and lack of endurance. Also, this post has brought attention to the possible "damage" done to the CNS. More research needs to be done, but it is certainly a valid point.

Whether you like Mentzer or not, I suggest Heavy Duty I and II. Both books are very interesting, to say the least. And, I am NOT preaching Heavy Duty. Like I said, your training should reflex your goals. After 12 years, I know what I like; not exactly HIT, high volume, or Heavy Duty. My training is a mix of things that work for me.

I don't think the training argument will be solved until some guys with pro type genetics (maybe even some pro's) try Heavy Duty training. I seriously doubt they will, so the debate rages on.....



Dr.S...........

 

[freefaller21]

Am I the only one here who is sick of the whole HIT vs. Volume debate?? Seriously we could argue this until the cows come home, I think its getting a little rediculus. Just do what you want to do, end game.

 

[Mr_Magoo]

OK, hot shot, you want my handful ? HIT trainee's (for starters)---- Brad Pitt, Leanardo Dicaprio, Tom Cruise------that oughtta shut you up!!

Seriously, though, I am not advocating any ONE type of training for Everyone. My point was this: From what I've seen and experienced during my training "career", I think Mentzer training will produce the best results if size is your only concern. Many make this agrument: if you could put on 20lbs of muscle in, let's say 6 months, would it make more sense to spend 12hours (total) in the gym, or 100 hours (total) in the gym? I'm not talking HIT, I'm talking Heavy Duty--- training once every 4-7days.

So, what "famous" people train this way? Well, that is not really my concern. I've had people with average/below average genetics make very good results with Heavy Duty with no change in diet; whereas they barely made progress on even 3x week HIT type workouts. I've also trained people with very good genetics who added more size with Heavy Duty.

Like i originally said, I'm not advocating Heavy Duty for everyone (look at the negatives I mentioned in the first post). I do believe, though, that best size gains would come with a Mentzer type protocol. The problem is that most IFBB pro type's have the genetics to look great no matter what type of training they do (I think Casey Viator once said something like "None of us know what we're doing, just train hard and eat lots of protein"). And these type of people LIKE going to the gym. There's no way they would want to work out once a week, so the theory will probably never be tested in that way. Also, many who train do so for athletic purposes. Heavy Duty would be terrible for an athlete due to the lack of useable strength, lack of flexiblity, propensity for injury, and lack of endurance. Also, this post has brought attention to the possible "damage" done to the CNS. More research needs to be done, but it is certainly a valid point.

Whether you like Mentzer or not, I suggest Heavy Duty I and II. Both books are very interesting, to say the least. And, I am NOT preaching Heavy Duty. Like I said, your training should reflex your goals. After 12 years, I know what I like; not exactly HIT, high volume, or Heavy Duty. My training is a mix of things that work for me.

I don't think the training argument will be solved until some guys with pro type genetics (maybe even some pro's) try Heavy Duty training. I seriously doubt they will, so the debate rages on.....



Dr.S...........

r u fuckin serious with that remark to me? and the workouts ive read pitt does is not close to HIT or Heavy Duty, dont fuckin come around on this board with 9 total fuckin points and mouth off.

now to those people who u see gain on HIT, that is great but like Lats said we've seen a handful of people who train HIT OR Heavy Duty naturally and make gains

pros trying HIT, why dont u go over to chadnicholls board and read tom princes thoughts on HIT and how none of the good pros besides dorian, viator and mentzer gai on it, some have given it a shot like titus and he looks wors as a result and although he aint a great pro his genetics are still in the top 1%

 

[Mr_Magoo]

an dif pitt does train HIT or Heavy duty y doesnt he look anything more then ripped and dicaprio and cruise , great examples of people witheveryday joe builds

 

[Crowler]

an dif pitt does train HIT or Heavy duty y doesnt he look anything more then ripped and dicaprio and cruise , great examples of people witheveryday joe builds

I think that was his point it was a joke. Ya see the little smilies.

 

[Dr.S]

Gosh-- i was joking! I doubt if Pitt and Dicaprio even train. I thought it was kind of funny, sorry if you missed the joke. BTW--I don't see what having 9 posts on this board has to do with anything; If it makes a difference to you, my post count over the years on the UG and the old Renegade board go well into the 1000's

As far as HIT vs. Volume, i'm not debating or arguing with anyone... Just expressing my opinion. And I could care less what Tom prinze and his buddies are doing. But i'm pretty sure that no IFBB pro's have tried Heavy Duty (mentzer) training. Those guys would probably get withdrawal symtoms if they only trained 30 minutes per week...LOL......

Mr Magoo-- once again, sorry if i offended you, that wasn't my intention.....


Dr.S........

 

[Mr_Magoo]

Gosh-- i was joking! I doubt if Pitt and Dicaprio even train. I thought it was kind of funny, sorry if you missed the joke. BTW--I don't see what having 9 posts on this board has to do with anything; If it makes a difference to you, my post count over the years on the UG and the old Renegade board go well into the 1000's

As far as HIT vs. Volume, i'm not debating or arguing with anyone... Just expressing my opinion. And I could care less what Tom prinze and his buddies are doing. But i'm pretty sure that no IFBB pro's have tried Heavy Duty (mentzer) training. Those guys would probably get withdrawal symtoms if they only trained 30 minutes per week...LOL......

Mr Magoo-- once again, sorry if i offended you, that wasn't my intention.....


Dr.S........

i was not sure if u were kidding or not and have a very short temper so i was checking, i dont know how many posts on other boards u have but it is just something i hate when a newbie comes on and is an ass which apparently u were not doing, but i thought u were

 

[Chuck999]

Well I just read that whole thing. Holy shit, my heads spinning! I just like to go to the gym and try to keep the rest of the world from making me REALLY crazy, and maybe get bigger and stronger at the same time. This whole thing is too complicated for me!

 

[bigheinz]

Heavy Duty II is exellent, a lot of my clients ( 3 of them are national champions of my country) had dramatic changes with it, training only once a week and they was very happy becouse they dont spend hours and days in the gym.

One of my clients turns from a skinee guy to national junior champ in one year with 6 month of Heavy Duty I and 6 month of Heavy Duty II, it was amazing, from principiant to advanced bb in 1 year, i am sure that volume cant do that.

I agree with you dr s i cant speak english very well and you take the words from my mouth...

Just train hard and relax..

Bigheinz

 

[urineluva]

mentzer

What did mike and his brother die from exactly? I dont remember hearing why was it drugs or was the paul borrison. Seems strange didnt they die within a few days of each other.

 

[Crowler]

Mike Mentzer died from an apparent heart attack on Saturday his brother Ray died on Tuesday from kidney failure from Berger's Disease.

June 9th and 12th.

 

[rl3355]

great thread

dug this up from a few years ago...good read.

 

[JohnnyPro]

Mike Mentzer died from an apparent heart attack on Saturday his brother Ray died on Tuesday from kidney failure from Berger's Disease.

June 9th and 12th.

I thought Ray committed suicide

 

[JohnnyPro]

I thought Ray committed suicide

Never mind me, I just looked it up. The suicide was just a rumor.